Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

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thelawyler
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby thelawyler » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:37 am

BlaqBella wrote:Penn is more reputable than Berkeley? Really?


Must be a west coaster.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:38 am

thelawyler wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:Penn is more reputable than Berkeley? Really?


Must be a west coaster.


Nope.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby JamesDean1955 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:39 am

IMO, yes, because I am from the northeast and want to work here after graduation, so I'm biased. Berkeley isn't going to get you farther than Penn out here, but I don't feel like arguing the point either way.

But I was just kidding about the tiers and T77 (T777) as these are things 0L's have brought up in the forums and started shit storms over.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Tom Joad » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:39 am

JamesDean1955 wrote:No dude, it's T77, everyone knows the correct tiers are HYSCC NP VB M DNCG

(guy who doesn't know anything)

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby JamesDean1955 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:40 am

Tom Joad wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:No dude, it's T77, everyone knows the correct tiers are HYSCC NP VB M DNCG

(guy who doesn't know anything)


Lol, see above post dude.

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dingbat
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby dingbat » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:53 am

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:Any school outside the T50 that isn't it's states only school (Montana, North Dakota, etc.) should either go the CUNY route (very low tuition, designed to produce public interest lawyers) or close its doors. There is no place for T2/3/4 schools charging $50K a year for some big law pipe dream.

TCR

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20130312
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby 20130312 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:55 am

I didn't think this thread could go downhill any faster, but there's nothing worse than a self-gratifying circle jerk about the tiers within the T14.

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dingbat
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby dingbat » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:57 am

InGoodFaith wrote:I didn't think this thread could go downhill any faster, but there's nothing worse than a self-gratifying circle jerk about the tiers within the T14.

There are 14 tiers in the T14. Peer schools are a myth

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hume85
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby hume85 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:58 am

InGoodFaith wrote:I didn't think this thread could go downhill any faster, but there's nothing worse than a self-gratifying circle jerk about the tiers within the T14.


For Biglaw: PC>>HS>everybody else

rad lulz
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:58 am

BlaqBella wrote:If employers did not care about rankings then why are the likes of TLS, Above the Law, and other LS/legal blogs/forums advocating against going to a TTT or TTTT?

I can't believe this is even up for discussion. Majority of TLS members are gunning for T14 for a reason.

Lawschooltransparency.com

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20130312
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby 20130312 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:02 pm

hume85 wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:I didn't think this thread could go downhill any faster, but there's nothing worse than a self-gratifying circle jerk about the tiers within the T14.


For Biglaw: PC>>HS>everybody else

Not sure if you believe this or are trolling, but either way kill yourself.

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hume85
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby hume85 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:06 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
hume85 wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:I didn't think this thread could go downhill any faster, but there's nothing worse than a self-gratifying circle jerk about the tiers within the T14.


For Biglaw: PC>>HS>everybody else

Not sure if you believe this or are trolling, but either way kill yourself.

Self-gratifying circle jerk.

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:12 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:I didn't think this thread could go downhill any faster, but there's nothing worse than a self-gratifying circle jerk about the tiers within the T14.


It's like Godwin's Law for TLS. As any thread gets longer, the likelihood of the discussion turning into appropriate rankings of the T14 approaches 1.

EDIT: So does the likelihood of someone posting "www.lawschoolnumbers.com"

NYstate
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby NYstate » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:27 pm

Does anyone think the devolution into a rankings discussion is a defense mechanism to avoid dealing with the reality of law school cost v potential earnings?

It is like people don't want to understand the meaning of the words in the article.

At any rate, the USC prof is dead wrong about their being increased demand for biglaw. Biglaw is struggling to make profits and the model is changing significantly. I know the citi Hildebrant report on law firm financials makes this clear.

Law school is just too expensive and employment to uncertain. Now that people are being to understand the truth of the employment situation, they aren't going. If you are still planning on going to law school, or plan to stay in when you have a low shot at employment, you might ask yourself why you think your career will be different from those who see these numbers and flee.

I know there are special snowflakes and there are the willfully ignorant, just be sure you aren't one of them.

http://www.americanlawyer.com/PubArticl ... 0031112132

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Jose Reyes » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:39 pm

you'rethemannowdawg wrote:
curious66 wrote:
h_jane_w wrote:bump. great article. just read it in the real Times.


Article mentions that 4 schools saw application increases this year? I think Duke is one of them -- any clue on the other 3? I wish they would state the details!


I wondered the same thing. It will be interesting to see how T14 enrollment is affected compared to lower tier schools. Are people who plan to go to law school in spite of the bad news for the profession simply applying to T14s instead of the state schools they would have applied to if the outlook were different?


I'd bet that Yale is another

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20130312
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby 20130312 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:54 pm

Also, the reason the article doesn't reveal which schools went up is because the schools all reported these stats anonymously. It's really the only way to get them to volunteer shitty info about themselves in the middle of an app cycle.

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holmesboy
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby holmesboy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:21 pm

Dear Students,

As you may have seen, there is an article in the New York Times today that outlines the challenges facing legal education. If you have not seen it, it can be found at the following link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/educa ... .html?_r=0


The market challenges described in the article are ones that have long been apparent to me and to so many in this community. This year, we embarked on a strategic planning process, and addressing these concerns and changes is the central focus of that process. At the same time, Georgetown Law has unique strengths as we respond to unprecedented challenges.


Even as we think through our goals for the next five years, we have moved immediately to strengthen our students’ opportunities and educational experience. As the article points out, one of the primary strategies that schools are adopting in response to the market changes is to focus on experiential learning. Georgetown has long been the leader in experiential education, and, even while we are thinking through our plans for the future, we have moved to increase our students’ opportunities in this area. Next year, we will launch a transactional clinic, we have in the past three years expanded our practicum offerings (seminars combined with field placements or projects) from three to thirty-three, and we have grown our externship program more than five-fold.

We have also worked to help students confront this difficult market. We have made providing increased support for students and graduates a priority in our allocation of limited resources. We have significantly increased financial aid in an effort to make a Georgetown education more accessible. Our support for summer employment – enabling students to gain experience with public sector and non-profit employers - has also increased significantly. This year, we will provide more than one million dollars in support to enable students to pursue this opportunity. Our Entry into Practice program provides financial support for graduates so that they can work in the public sector as they are looking for permanent employment, and we have made this program available to all of our current graduates. Finally, our loan forgiveness program has expanded as more and more students pursue public sector employment.

At the same time, we have also focused on strengthening our career planning efforts. We have launched new programs to help our students think through their options and prepare to take advantage of their opportunities, and we have restructured and expanded counseling. As a result of both our efforts and improvements in the market, we are seeing improvements in career opportunities. The New York Times article reports employment numbers for the Class of 2011, which appears to be the bottom of the market. Prospects for our Class of 2013 are much more promising. For example, when members of the Class of 2011 were second-year students (the summer of 2010), 34 percent of the class worked as summer associates. This past summer (the summer of 2012), 52 percent of the class of 2013 obtained positions as summer associates. This shift – an improvement of more than 50 percent - indicates that, even as we are in a time of challenges, our students’ job prospects are improving significantly.

Regarding admissions, I have spoken at length with Dean Andy Cornblatt, who, as you can imagine, is monitoring the situation closely. We are fortunate that we have instituted programs designed to attract applicants and, more importantly, to help encourage our admitted students to enroll. We now have a two-tiered interview process in place – alumni and group interviews – which this year will result in almost one-third of the applicant pool being interviewed. Andy reports that applications to Georgetown this year will likely be down approximately 12%, as opposed to 21% nationwide. He predicts, however, that the median gpa and LSATs for the entering class in Fall 2013 should remain roughly the same as last year’s, and the new class will also reflect the diversity that is so central to Georgetown’s mission. Make no mistake, this is a challenging time for admissions, but we are fortunate to have, in Andy and his staff, a terrific team, unrivaled in the world of law school admissions.

As the strategic planning process continues, I look forward to providing you more information. In a time of challenge, we are fortunate to be members of a community of such strength and such commitment to the well-being of our students.

Sincerely,
Bill Treanor



tl;dr - anticipated 12% drop in apps, and job prospects are still grim at GeorgeTTTown.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:27 pm

1. No amount of experiential learning will change the fact that there aren't enough jobs.

2. 34%-->52% in SAs is good, although even at 52% I can't justify sticker debt.

3. Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same if that means class size will be cut. Unfortunately he didn't say class size will be cut which probably means if you've got a 2.1/169 you're in.

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Teflon_Don
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Teflon_Don » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:37 pm

Are people at top 10 schools hurting this badly too?

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby JamesDean1955 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:37 pm

holmesboy, where did that letter from Treanor come from?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:43 pm

Jeez 52%? Wasn't it reported to be 70-80% at CCN?

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holmesboy
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby holmesboy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:46 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:holmesboy, where did that letter from Treanor come from?


It was emailed to the school this morning.

toothbrush
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby toothbrush » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:49 pm

Came for the article, stayed for the lulz. Anything BlaqBella posts in is gold.

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holmesboy
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby holmesboy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:53 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:1. No amount of experiential learning will change the fact that there aren't enough jobs.

2. 34%-->52% in SAs is good, although even at 52% I can't justify sticker debt.

3. Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same if that means class size will be cut. Unfortunately he didn't say class size will be cut which probably means if you've got a 2.1/169 you're in.



All good points, and I agree 100%. It's unfortunate to see that class size likely won't be cut. But up until this morning, I was under the impression that only ~33% got big law? Does this mean that employers are dipping to median, or is it another case of inflated employment data?

ajax
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby ajax » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:54 pm

holmesboy wrote:
Dear Students,

As you may have seen, there is an article in the New York Times today that outlines the challenges facing legal education. If you have not seen it, it can be found at the following link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/educa ... .html?_r=0


The market challenges described in the article are ones that have long been apparent to me and to so many in this community. This year, we embarked on a strategic planning process, and addressing these concerns and changes is the central focus of that process. At the same time, Georgetown Law has unique strengths as we respond to unprecedented challenges.


Even as we think through our goals for the next five years, we have moved immediately to strengthen our students’ opportunities and educational experience. As the article points out, one of the primary strategies that schools are adopting in response to the market changes is to focus on experiential learning. Georgetown has long been the leader in experiential education, and, even while we are thinking through our plans for the future, we have moved to increase our students’ opportunities in this area. Next year, we will launch a transactional clinic, we have in the past three years expanded our practicum offerings (seminars combined with field placements or projects) from three to thirty-three, and we have grown our externship program more than five-fold.

We have also worked to help students confront this difficult market. We have made providing increased support for students and graduates a priority in our allocation of limited resources. We have significantly increased financial aid in an effort to make a Georgetown education more accessible. Our support for summer employment – enabling students to gain experience with public sector and non-profit employers - has also increased significantly. This year, we will provide more than one million dollars in support to enable students to pursue this opportunity. Our Entry into Practice program provides financial support for graduates so that they can work in the public sector as they are looking for permanent employment, and we have made this program available to all of our current graduates. Finally, our loan forgiveness program has expanded as more and more students pursue public sector employment.

At the same time, we have also focused on strengthening our career planning efforts. We have launched new programs to help our students think through their options and prepare to take advantage of their opportunities, and we have restructured and expanded counseling. As a result of both our efforts and improvements in the market, we are seeing improvements in career opportunities. The New York Times article reports employment numbers for the Class of 2011, which appears to be the bottom of the market. Prospects for our Class of 2013 are much more promising. For example, when members of the Class of 2011 were second-year students (the summer of 2010), 34 percent of the class worked as summer associates. This past summer (the summer of 2012), 52 percent of the class of 2013 obtained positions as summer associates. This shift – an improvement of more than 50 percent - indicates that, even as we are in a time of challenges, our students’ job prospects are improving significantly.

Regarding admissions, I have spoken at length with Dean Andy Cornblatt, who, as you can imagine, is monitoring the situation closely. We are fortunate that we have instituted programs designed to attract applicants and, more importantly, to help encourage our admitted students to enroll. We now have a two-tiered interview process in place – alumni and group interviews – which this year will result in almost one-third of the applicant pool being interviewed. Andy reports that applications to Georgetown this year will likely be down approximately 12%, as opposed to 21% nationwide. He predicts, however, that the median gpa and LSATs for the entering class in Fall 2013 should remain roughly the same as last year’s, and the new class will also reflect the diversity that is so central to Georgetown’s mission. Make no mistake, this is a challenging time for admissions, but we are fortunate to have, in Andy and his staff, a terrific team, unrivaled in the world of law school admissions.

As the strategic planning process continues, I look forward to providing you more information. In a time of challenge, we are fortunate to be members of a community of such strength and such commitment to the well-being of our students.

Sincerely,
Bill Treanor



tl;dr - anticipated 12% drop in apps, and job prospects are still grim at GeorgeTTTown.


This is just more standard BS from law school deans. Until they actually cut tuition, they are doing nothing.




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