Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble; Forum

[Miracle]

We should increase the standards, shut down 30-40 schools, decrease class sizes, and move on from there. It seems as if we are circling around but not addressing what the issue really is.

Or just make student loans like any other loan and solve the problem tomorrow.

Well thats going to improve the problem. According to your statement, money will buy law school! By doing what you are suggesting we would eliminate more qualified candidates as if we don't have that problem already. We already have enough people attending law school who should not be attending there in the first place.

"But, but, but, no one would loan a poor guy money to attend Harvard!" Come on. Banks would be lining up to make loans to needy students who had the credentials to get into top schools, and tuition prices would drop rapidly. Not to mention schools could always guarantee some part of the loans or make the loans themselves if they are so worthwhile.

Attempting to improve "access" to education is what got us here in the first place.

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

[Drake014]

Is West Virginia now on par with cheap foreign labor?

West Virginia has been stepping it up. They're now qualitatively above rural Africa, but not yet up to suburban India

Glad to see they've improved under Obama.

[Tom Joad]

"But, but, but, no one would loan a poor guy money to attend Harvard!" Come on. Banks would be lining up to make loans to needy students who had the credentials to get into top schools, and tuition prices would drop rapidly. Not to mention schools could always guarantee some part of the loans or make the loans themselves if they are so worthwhile.

Attempting to improve "access" to education is what got us here in the first place.

Yeah, Miracle, not sure if you are familiar with what happened in the housing bubble, but it was super easy to get credit and housing prices skyrocketed because demand increased so much (artificially). The same thing is happening to tuition. Only you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy so prices just keep going up and up and up.

[buddyt]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

Lendors won't care about your GPA, but Harvard will when considering admission, and lendors will care about a Harvard acceptance.

[Miracle]

No dude, it's T77, everyone knows the correct tiers are HYSCC NP VB M DNCG[/quote]

Michigan appears to be going downhill. I bet in the future they are ranked in the lower T-14, Georgetown drops out of the T-14, Duke becomes solidly ranked T-7-8 and UT-Austin/UCLA becomes a T-14.[/quote]

Ohhh please! Don't see it happening. That would mean UCLA will have to increase its LSAT median, and I highly doubt that will happen.

Michigan, school that has been ranked in T14 since inception of ranking will allow its prestige to slip away? No way! Have you seen their cycle this year? Nope! Not happening!

[Tiago Splitter]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

I said get the government out of the student loan business. I'm talking about banks making loans to people who they think can pay them back.

But seriously, please continue making the exact same arguments as the TTTT Deans.

[justonemoregame]

I said this last year, and I'll say it again: there should be one law school. 30,000 seats, everyone is ranked 1-30,000. Entry level hiring is closely monitored (much easier to do with a 1 law school Central Command system). People numbered 25,001 - 30,000 are expelled after 1L and can rest assured they should be doing something else with their inglorious selves.

If a firm or a judge or a solo wants to hire an attorney, call the law school.

[bizzybone1313]

No dude, it's T77, everyone knows the correct tiers are HYSCC NP VB M DNCG

Michigan appears to be going downhill. I bet in the future they are ranked in the lower T-14, Georgetown drops out of the T-14, Duke becomes solidly ranked T-7-8 and UT-Austin/UCLA becomes a T-14.

Ohhh please! Don't see it happening. That would mean UCLA will have to increase its LSAT median, and I highly doubt that will happen.

Michigan, school that has been ranked in T14 since inception of ranking will allow its prestige to slip away? No way! Have you seen their cycle this year? Nope! Not happening!

I have always liked Michigan a whole lot (more than Penn and Virginia), but they do have a lot of problems as of late. Their employment outcomes, the school is located in a shit hole of a state in Michigan and how their similarly ranked peers are doing relatively well.

[Drake014]

We should increase the standards, shut down 30-40 schools, decrease class sizes, and move on from there. It seems as if we are circling around but not addressing what the issue really is.

Or just make student loans like any other loan and solve the problem tomorrow.

Well thats going to improve the problem. According to your statement, money will buy law school! By doing what you are suggesting we would eliminate more qualified candidates as if we don't have that problem already. We already have enough people attending law school who should not be attending there in the first place.

"But, but, but, no one would loan a poor guy money to attend Harvard!" Come on. Banks would be lining up to make loans to needy students who had the credentials to get into top schools, and tuition prices would drop rapidly. Not to mention schools could always guarantee some part of the loans or make the loans themselves if they are so worthwhile.

Attempting to improve "access" to education is what got us here in the first place.

If banks had been lining up to make student loans, they never would have invented government student loans. I'm actually for all students being able to obtain student loans to get a higher education. My beef is that:

1. there are virtually no limits on how much they can borrow
2. they can blow shit tons of money on useless degrees
3. they can blow shit tons of money at shitty institutions
4. its virtually impossible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy

[justonemoregame]

Also, admissions will be based on LSAT + GPA metric, with boost for URM and the additional requirement that the student body represent PERFECTLY the ethnic demographics of the united states of america.

[Miracle]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

Lendors won't care about your GPA, but Harvard will when considering admission, and lendors will care about a Harvard acceptance.

Whether or not you receive an admission from Harvard, Sallie Mae cannot give someone a private loan with poor credit worthiness. Harvard or not. Thats not how the system works. So now, given that you cannot afford the education but are capable of handling it better than the person next to you, now you cannot attend, and somehow thats fair and solves everyones problems.

What happened with housing bubble is that people were allowed to take out loans that they necessarily couldn't pay back. You would embrace such tactic because now Sallie Mae would be forced, or required to finance someone whom could't afford to pay back that money.

[justonemoregame]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

Lendors won't care about your GPA, but Harvard will when considering admission, and lendors will care about a Harvard acceptance.

Whether or not you receive an admission from Harvard, Sallie Mae cannot give someone a private loan with poor credit worthiness. Harvard or not. Thats not how the system works. So now, given that you cannot afford the education but are capable of handling it better than the person next to you, now you cannot attend, and somehow thats fair and solves everyones problems.

What happened with housing bubble is that people were allowed to take out loans that they necessarily couldn't pay back. You would embrace such tactic because now Sallie Mae would be forced, or required to finance someone whom could't afford to pay back that money.

Co-signing is a thing

[09042014]

Biglaw can be prestige whores and not pay attention to the rankings at the same time since the schools they give two shits about have been ranked roughly the same for decades.

Rankings don't create prestige they measure it, and they do a poor job measuring it.

[Drake014]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

Lendors won't care about your GPA, but Harvard will when considering admission, and lendors will care about a Harvard acceptance.

Whether or not you receive an admission from Harvard, Sallie Mae cannot give someone a private loan with poor credit worthiness. Harvard or not. Thats not how the system works. So now, given that you cannot afford the education but are capable of handling it better than the person next to you, now you cannot attend, and somehow thats fair and solves everyones problems.

What happened with housing bubble is that people were allowed to take out loans that they necessarily couldn't pay back. You would embrace such tactic because now Sallie Mae would be forced, or required to finance someone whom could't afford to pay back that money.

Co-signing is a thing

Because poor people are known for having relatives with awesome credit.

[Miracle]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

I said get the government out of the student loan business. I'm talking about banks making loans to people who they think can pay them back.

But seriously, please continue making the exact same arguments as the TTTT Deans.

people who they THINK can pay them back? How is my argument flawed? So now that you can't afford it you can't go. You must be a Mitt Romney supporter.

[buddyt]

Whether or not you receive an admission from Harvard, Sallie Mae cannot give someone a private loan with poor credit worthiness. Harvard or not.

I wasn't talking about Sallie Mae, I was talking about lenders in general. If you have an acceptance to Harvard, you will most definitely find a lender out there who will finance it. In the case where your credit is so bad that you cannot find a lender, then that is your own fault.

[Miracle]

Whether or not you receive an admission from Harvard, Sallie Mae cannot give someone a private loan with poor credit worthiness. Harvard or not.

I wasn't talking about Sallie Mae, I was talking about lenders in general. If you have an acceptance to Harvard, you will most definitely find a lender out there who will finance it. In the case where your credit is so bad that you cannot find a lender, then that is your own fault.

This is a joke! Seriously?

[Miracle]

Co-signing is a thing[/quote]

Because poor people are known for having relatives with awesome credit.[/quote]


You made me laugh!

My mom was a co-signer for me all the time, but since she passed away, I don't have anyone. Does that mean I don't et to attend because i don't have anyone to co-sign for me?

[Tiago Splitter]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

I said get the government out of the student loan business. I'm talking about banks making loans to people who they think can pay them back.

But seriously, please continue making the exact same arguments as the TTTT Deans.

people who they THINK can pay them back? How is my argument flawed? So now that you can't afford it you can't go. You must be a Mitt Romney supporter.

Jesus Christ.

You're rich. Poor kid has acceptance to Harvard. You give him a loan. Forget Sallie Mae. Forget all that other crap.

If banks had been lining up to make student loans, they never would have invented government student loans. I'm actually for all students being able to obtain student loans to get a higher education. My beef is that:

1. there are virtually no limits on how much they can borrow
2. they can blow shit tons of money on useless degrees
3. they can blow shit tons of money at shitty institutions
4. its virtually impossible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy

Government guaranteed loans are simply a huge boon to schools. But I agree with you that at least as a middle step loans should be capped at a much lower number.

[Miracle]

Highly doubt it! I don't think Sallie Mae will care about someone's GPA, compared to someone's credit worthiness.

I said get the government out of the student loan business. I'm talking about banks making loans to people who they think can pay them back.

But seriously, please continue making the exact same arguments as the TTTT Deans.

people who they THINK can pay them back? How is my argument flawed? So now that you can't afford it you can't go. You must be a Mitt Romney supporter.

Jesus Christ.

You're rich. Poor kid has acceptance to Harvard. You give him a loan. Forget Sallie Mae. Forget all that other crap.

If banks had been lining up to make student loans, they never would have invented government student loans. I'm actually for all students being able to obtain student loans to get a higher education. My beef is that:

1. there are virtually no limits on how much they can borrow
2. they can blow shit tons of money on useless degrees
3. they can blow shit tons of money at shitty institutions
4. its virtually impossible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy

Government guaranteed loans are simply a huge boon to schools. But I agree with you that at least as a middle step loans should be capped at a much lower number.

Thats no how the banks operate! Thats what you are not understanding.

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't think you understand how banks operate, nor how to judiciously use exclamation points.

[LRGhost]

Government loans wouldn't be bad if their interest wasn't so insanely high. There's no need for 7%+ interest on a non-dischargeable loan. It's a shitty money-making scheme. For the longest times, we didn't have loans this high. It's not a boon to students. Privatizing everything doesn't solve the problem because now you have banks dictating which schools and candidates are worth funding. Assessing educational outcome is necessarily different and requires different judgement than assessing someone's ability to pay off a mortgage.

[Tiago Splitter]

Government loans wouldn't be bad if their interest wasn't so insanely high. There's no need for 7%+ interest on a non-dischargeable loan. It's a shitty money-making scheme. For the longest times, we didn't have loans this high. It's not a boon to students. Privatizing everything doesn't solve the problem because now you have banks dictating which schools and candidates are worth funding. Assessing educational outcome is necessarily different and requires different judgement than assessing someone's ability to pay off a mortgage.

But even if you feel the government must be involved, people who in your mind would not have access to law school without government intervention are not being helped. No one benefits by getting a Cooley degree even if the 150k loan is interest free.

[LRGhost]

Michigan appears to be going downhill. I bet in the future they are ranked in the lower T-14, Georgetown drops out of the T-14, Duke becomes solidly ranked T-7-8 and UT-Austin/UCLA becomes a T-14.

Mich's results were shitty in the last available year (2011) because OCS told people to bid Chicago, a comparably small legal market that is notoriously hard to crack for people outside of Chicago. If they had bid New York and even DC, their numbers would have been better. We'll see how they do when new numbers come out. Duke will remain where ever it is. It won't become tied with Penn any time soon. GULC won't drop out of the T14 if they cut classes slightly; they still have better employment stats that UT-Austin and ULCA and Vandy. They also have greater lay prestige which actually matters in the ranking when people fill out the survey. Cornell stays 12/13 since they keep feeding into NYC at a clip above their ranking. Virginia will be a casualty if school-funded jobs aren't included in the new employment equation used by USNWR. MVP aren't peer schools. Virginia will fall solidly to 8th or 9th and have no danger of slipping further.

[buddyt]

Whether or not you receive an admission from Harvard, Sallie Mae cannot give someone a private loan with poor credit worthiness. Harvard or not.

I wasn't talking about Sallie Mae, I was talking about lenders in general. If you have an acceptance to Harvard, you will most definitely find a lender out there who will finance it. In the case where your credit is so bad that you cannot find a lender, then that is your own fault.

This is a joke! Seriously?

"LOL R U SRS" does absolutely nothing to weaken my argument or further the discussion.