Is Law School Work Hard?

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splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:48 am

Does your school have completely closed book/no electronic outline exams or something?

dingbat wrote:
jwinaz wrote:Well, last question for me then.

Since you guys don't have assignments that are turned in, I guess you can sort of work at your own pace? In other words, you guys can take, say, three days off in a row and then work 10 days in a row...etc.?

As long as you get it all done and ready by exam time, right? Does that take a lot of discipline?

1) if you take too many days off, you won't catch up
2) you really should pace yourself to keep up with either the syllabus or the actual pace at which the professor covers the materials (which might vary wildly)
3) you do not want to still not have finished the reading when you're approaching exam time. It's not like UG where you can cram the night before and be ok; exam prep takes time. Anything less than a month and you're gonna be struggling

Also, this:
stillwater wrote:law school is a joke. don't self-destruct.

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stillwater
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby stillwater » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:49 am

I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.

jwinaz
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby jwinaz » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:51 am

stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.


I'm not sure how true this was, but I recall last year reading a post about someone who said they just used outlines and didn't do much work/reading and got an A- or something in a class. Myabe I can find that post. But I had a friend also tell me that people who brag in law school about doing no work and getting good grades are likely lying and trying to intimidate you. So, he said not to believe them.

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dingbat
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:52 am

splitmuch wrote:Does your school have completely closed book/no electronic outline exams or something?
It's up to the professor. The majority are open book.

stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.

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dingbat
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:53 am

jwinaz wrote:
stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.


I'm not sure how true this was, but I recall last year reading a post about someone who said they just used outlines and didn't do much work/reading and got an A- or something in a class. Myabe I can find that post. But I had a friend also tell me that people who brag in law school about doing no work and getting good grades are likely lying and trying to intimidate you. So, he said not to believe them.

I did far less than most people in my class and fared well enough; I think that if I'd actually put in some real work, I probably would have done much better)

splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:53 am

stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.



Right but the amount of time and effort dingbat is suggesting is needed seems to imply that he or she is actually memorizing large amounts of material.

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cinephile
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby cinephile » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:54 am

jwinaz wrote:This business about outlines. Are the essentially like Cliff Notes or Spark Notes?


You get outlines from someone who took the class with your professor before because different profs have different views on the same subject. Depending on the course, you may be able to get everything you need to know out of a 30pg outline. For example, I did not read a single page for professional responsibility after the first class, but I found an outline for my professor on an outline bank and studied those 30 pages (read through it over and over again in the 3 days leading up to the exam) and did better than most people in my class. So, reading for that class would've been a joke and a waste, but I suppose this is something you do more as a 2L.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:55 am

jwinaz wrote:
stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.


I'm not sure how true this was, but I recall last year reading a post about someone who said they just used outlines and didn't do much work/reading and got an A- or something in a class. Myabe I can find that post. But I had a friend also tell me that people who brag in law school about doing no work and getting good grades are likely lying and trying to intimidate you. So, he said not to believe them.

This works for a lot of upperclassmen, but during 1L and especially first semester I think you have to do it the old fashioned way. I got good grades by reading every case, going to every class, and making my own outlines. Crazy I know.

splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:55 am

dingbat wrote:
jwinaz wrote:
stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.


I'm not sure how true this was, but I recall last year reading a post about someone who said they just used outlines and didn't do much work/reading and got an A- or something in a class. Myabe I can find that post. But I had a friend also tell me that people who brag in law school about doing no work and getting good grades are likely lying and trying to intimidate you. So, he said not to believe them.

I did far less than most people in my class and fared well enough; I think that if I'd actually put in some real work, I probably would have done much better)


This post is completely contradictory with your post in which you said cramming is impposible, people should stay up to date with the syllabus, and that if you don't give yourself at least a month then you're screwed.

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dingbat
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:56 am

splitmuch wrote:
stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.



Right but the amount of time and effort dingbat is suggesting is needed seems to imply that he or she is actually memorizing large amounts of material.

no, you don't need to memorize a large amount of material. You need to thoroughly understand a small amount of material, but you need to know it very well. Having a perfectly crafted outline doesn't mean shit if you can't spot the issue. Memorizing the rules doesn't matter if you don't know how to apply them.

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stillwater
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby stillwater » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:58 am

I think Glannon told us a great tidbit, he came to my school for some reason. 1L exams are sophisticated application of basic doctrine. You really don't need to remake the wheel. Stay close to fact and argue both sides.

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dingbat
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:59 am

splitmuch wrote:This post is completely contradictory with your post in which you said cramming is impposible, people should stay up to date with the syllabus, and that if you don't give yourself at least a month then you're screwed.

If you want to keep up with the reading, you need to read continuously; figure on spending as much time reading as you spend in class. It's not like UG where you can read 50 pages in an hour. You need to analyze what you're reading, and that takes time. By doing the reading, you're training yourself to spot the issue, figuring out what the rule is, and seeing how the rule is applied. In class you discover what issues you missed, clarify the rules, and learn why it's applied in that manner. That's not something you can figure out overnight.

Law school isn't about memorization, it's about understanding. Understanding comes from doing.

splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:01 am

dingbat wrote:
splitmuch wrote:
stillwater wrote:I found that outlines in and of themselves mean nothing. It is about internalizing and gaining fluency in the material. So you can make your own outline or borrow an outline. Depends on your style. I did both to equal result.



Right but the amount of time and effort dingbat is suggesting is needed seems to imply that he or she is actually memorizing large amounts of material.

no, you don't need to memorize a large amount of material. You need to thoroughly understand a small amount of material, but you need to know it very well. Having a perfectly crafted outline [b]doesn't mean shit if you can't spot the issue. Memorizing the rules doesn't matter if you don't know how to apply them.



I thoroughly agree with the bolded, which is why I'm confused by your post;s insistence about how much time is required. Law school classes (usually) do not require you to know or understand all that much information. Grades are more about ability to spot issues.

splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:02 am

dingbat wrote:
splitmuch wrote:This post is completely contradictory with your post in which you said cramming is impposible, people should stay up to date with the syllabus, and that if you don't give yourself at least a month then you're screwed.

If you want to keep up with the reading, you need to read continuously; figure on spending as much time reading as you spend in class. It's not like UG where you can read 50 pages in an hour. You need to analyze what you're reading, and that takes time. By doing the reading, you're training yourself to spot the issue, figuring out what the rule is, and seeing how the rule is applied. In class you discover what issues you missed, clarify the rules, and learn why it's applied in that manner. That's not something you can figure out overnight.

Law school isn't about memorization, it's about understanding. Understanding comes from doing.



I would humbly suggest you do not need to read nearly as carefully as you seem to think is required.

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stillwater
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby stillwater » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:02 am

.
Last edited by stillwater on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:04 am

stillwater wrote:
You girls done?


Are either of us getting "catty?" We clearly disagree, but I don't think were sniping at each other.

jwinaz
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby jwinaz » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:04 am

dingbat wrote:
splitmuch wrote:This post is completely contradictory with your post in which you said cramming is impposible, people should stay up to date with the syllabus, and that if you don't give yourself at least a month then you're screwed.

If you want to keep up with the reading, you need to read continuously; figure on spending as much time reading as you spend in class. It's not like UG where you can read 50 pages in an hour. You need to analyze what you're reading, and that takes time. By doing the reading, you're training yourself to spot the issue, figuring out what the rule is, and seeing how the rule is applied. In class you discover what issues you missed, clarify the rules, and learn why it's applied in that manner. That's not something you can figure out overnight.

Law school isn't about memorization, it's about understanding. Understanding comes from doing.


But you do memorize the rules themselves no? Like how many rules/laws would you need to memorize for a single class?

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stillwater
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby stillwater » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:04 am

.
Last edited by stillwater on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:06 am

splitmuch wrote:I thoroughly agree with the bolded, which is why I'm confused by your post;s insistence about how much time is required. Law school classes (usually) do not require you to know or understand all that much information. Grades are more about ability to spot issues.

Because the best ways to learn to spot issues are by reading cases and taking practice exams.

Of course, I could be wrong... I'm not a 4.0 student :cry:

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mephistopheles
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby mephistopheles » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:07 am

dingbat wrote:
splitmuch wrote:I thoroughly agree with the bolded, which is why I'm confused by your post;s insistence about how much time is required. Law school classes (usually) do not require you to know or understand all that much information. Grades are more about ability to spot issues.

Because the best ways to learn to spot issues are by reading cases and taking practice exams.

Of course, I could be wrong... I'm not a 4.0 student :cry:



meh, everyone is different. i know people who read every case and did poorly. i read every case and did well. i know people who only read supplements and did very poorly. i know people who only read supplements and did well.

the work is not hard in and of itself, but it is time-consuming.

splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:08 am

stillwater wrote:
splitmuch wrote:
stillwater wrote:
You girls done?


Are either of us getting "catty?" We clearly disagree, but I don't think were sniping at each other.


It is a difference of opinion. I know 2 people at my school who are probably 1 and 2 in their section and they have VASTLY different styles. It is about finding out what works for you.


I think to a large amount that's true. But I also think, to an extent, people who do well and really bust their ass could potentially still do as well if they worked less. I've never gotten someone to agree to be my experiment, though.

jwinaz
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby jwinaz » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:08 am

mephistopheles wrote:
dingbat wrote:
splitmuch wrote:I thoroughly agree with the bolded, which is why I'm confused by your post;s insistence about how much time is required. Law school classes (usually) do not require you to know or understand all that much information. Grades are more about ability to spot issues.

Because the best ways to learn to spot issues are by reading cases and taking practice exams.

Of course, I could be wrong... I'm not a 4.0 student :cry:



meh, everyone is different. i know people who read every case and did poorly. i read every case and did well. i know people who only read supplements and did very poorly. i know people who only read supplements and did well.

the work is not hard in and of itself, but it is time-consuming.



Do you guys find it enjoyable at all? Like you would a favorite subject?
Last edited by jwinaz on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby dingbat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:09 am

jwinaz wrote:But you do memorize the rules themselves no? Like how many rules/laws would you need to memorize for a single class?

eh.
You can probably fit all the rules on a single page. Most exams are open book so you don't need to memorize them, although you should know what you're looking for when you're reading the question.

splitmuch
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:10 am

dingbat wrote:
splitmuch wrote:I thoroughly agree with the bolded, which is why I'm confused by your post;s insistence about how much time is required. Law school classes (usually) do not require you to know or understand all that much information. Grades are more about ability to spot issues.

Because the best ways to learn to spot issues are by reading cases and taking practice exams.

Of course, I could be wrong... I'm not a 4.0 student :cry:


The practice exams I'll give you. But I don't think reading cases is a good way to learn to "spot" issues in the exam-taking context.

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stillwater
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Re: Is Law School Work Hard?

Postby stillwater » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:10 am

.
Last edited by stillwater on Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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