Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

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ltezen
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Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby ltezen » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:26 pm

this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!

ajax
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby ajax » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:56 pm

Some information for you to make this decision on your own:

employment outcomes:

--LinkRemoved--

cost:

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... geid=61621

chances at scholarships:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/

present value calculator:
http://www.money-zine.com/Calculators/I ... alculator/


cheers.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby justonemoregame » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:57 pm

I don't know about giving up a T14 for a 3rd or 4th tier school, but I'm sure people with solid numbers end up there with extenuating circumstances - age/family. People struggle with T14 vs. top 50 regional every year, and I imagine there are hundreds who don't have their minds made up about it yet. Outside of EV calculations that show one's supposed career trajectory, it can be difficult to argue in favor of lower T-14 at sticker price. I mean, if you go searching for articles about the future of biglaw/fed hiring, I'm not sure you can find much to bolster your optimism.

But, some people just need the expected value calculation. (and they likely imagine PSLF is a guarantee, worst-case).

If this decision comes down to a toss-up for you, I'm not sure how you can break the tie. One thing I would consider is whether or not your local school has cut enrollment in the last two years, and by how much. Chances are it has, but maybe not by much. Look at the schools whose graduates you will compete with for local firm and state gov jobs. E-mail admissions for all of these places, and ask what their target is for enrollment.

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uconjak
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby uconjak » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:02 pm

i am in the middle of this currently. I don't have all my schollys in yet. but currently I got 15/year at UCLA and 25K at Fordham, and 26K at Iowa. Now I have been accepted to GULC and GW. No word on their contributions. I am in state at Iowa so it is a full tuition scholly. I don't want to end up with more than 100k in debt after graduation. I want to work in East coast/DC area or in Cali...
Hopefully i get a good schooly from one of my other schools (t17) I can leverage to get a better deal at a more national school.

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twenty
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby twenty » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:15 pm

uconjak wrote:25K at Fordham


If this is 25k total, bad idea. If this is 75k total, not a terrible idea.

I am in state at Iowa so it is a full tuition scholly.


If you want to work in Iowa, this is a very solid option (assuming no stips on scholarship).

I want to work in East coast/DC area or in Cali...


Unless you get into HYS, count on not getting either of those without ties.

Best option, as always, is retake.

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uconjak
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby uconjak » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:08 pm

The fordam scholly is 25/year. 75 total.

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twenty
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby twenty » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:35 pm

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=fordham

Generally you need to be in the top 1/3 of your class to get biglaw, it appears. Fordham certainly outperforms its ranking, but you should probably do your own research here. Even with a 75k scholarship, you're looking at a minimum of 100k of debt. If you're down with that, then fine.

ajax
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby ajax » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:53 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=fordham

Generally you need to be in the top 1/3 of your class to get biglaw, it appears. Fordham certainly outperforms its ranking, but you should probably do your own research here. Even with a 75k scholarship, you're looking at a minimum of 100k of debt. If you're down with that, then fine.


Well over 100k. NYC is expensive, brah.

If I were this guy/gal I would wait for GULC to give you some cash, and then attend there. It seems people with similar #s to you received 60k-90k last year, and this year applications are off another 20%. Congrats.

http://gulc.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... r=desc&p=5

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uconjak
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby uconjak » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:05 pm

ajax wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=fordham

Generally you need to be in the top 1/3 of your class to get biglaw, it appears. Fordham certainly outperforms its ranking, but you should probably do your own research here. Even with a 75k scholarship, you're looking at a minimum of 100k of debt. If you're down with that, then fine.


Well over 100k. NYC is expensive, brah.

If I were this guy/gal I would wait for GULC to give you some cash, and then attend there. It seems people with similar #s to you received 60k-90k last year, and this year applications are off another 20%. Congrats.

http://gulc.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... r=desc&p=5


One good thing is my sister lives in NYC. She will let me rack out at her place. she is only at her apt. for about 1/2 the year anyway. I will have to sleep on a hideaway but what the hell can you get for $500/month in Manhatten....

09042014
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:07 pm

Full ride at Iowa is TCR.

clerker
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby clerker » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:09 pm

ltezen wrote:this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!



It all depends on what you want to do, and what type of risk you want to take. If you know the city you want to practice in, you're definitely better off being top 1% at the local school than being even top 1/3 at the T14. For biglaw hiring, there's a chance you'll be viewed equally in both circumstances, but for nearly every other type of job (including clerkships) you'll be better off as the top kid at the local school. That's because you'll be viewed as an all-star, and all your profs will be going to bat for you. If you can guarantee top 1% then the scholarship is just icing on the cake. If you're good at networking, you'll probably be OK at the lower ranked school.

Of course, if you change your mind after attending the local school and decide to work in XYZ city on the other side of the U.S., then you're in a worse position than the top 1/3 from the T14. And, of course, if you end up at, say top 1/3 at the local school, you'd likely be better off as a median student from the T14 (at least for biglaw).

In the end, you've gotta figure out what you're good at, what you want, and how much downside risk you're willing to accept. (I just thought of this: how much money do you have saved up? This partly determines your downside risk.) It always amazes me when everyone recommends "T14 or nothing" because going to law school is a big, complex decision, that requires weighing lots of variables.

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typ3
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby typ3 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Full ride at Iowa is TCR.


Except that internally Iowa is sounding the alarms because its recent grads are struggling to find jobs and contribute to the world.

09042014
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:30 pm

typ3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Full ride at Iowa is TCR.


Except that internally Iowa is sounding the alarms because its recent grads are struggling to find jobs and contribute to the world.


Being unemployed with low debt in the midwest is better than DC BIGLAW.

beautyistruth
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby beautyistruth » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:33 am

clerker wrote:
ltezen wrote:this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!



It all depends on what you want to do, and what type of risk you want to take. If you know the city you want to practice in, you're definitely better off being top 1% at the local school than being even top 1/3 at the T14. For biglaw hiring, there's a chance you'll be viewed equally in both circumstances, but for nearly every other type of job (including clerkships) you'll be better off as the top kid at the local school. That's because you'll be viewed as an all-star, and all your profs will be going to bat for you. If you can guarantee top 1% then the scholarship is just icing on the cake. If you're good at networking, you'll probably be OK at the lower ranked school.


How can you ever, in any circumstance, ever determine that you're going to be the top 1% at any school? There are so many factors going into that that you can't predict. What if you get the flu during your exam? What if the professor grades your exam while needing a smoke break and gives you a lower grade? What if there are a few other gunners in your low-ranked school that out-performs you? With this in mind, how can it ever be an even remotely safe bet to choose a low-ranked school and predict being at the very top, even if you are exceptionally smart?

ltezen
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby ltezen » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:45 am

beautyistruth wrote:
clerker wrote:
ltezen wrote:this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!



It all depends on what you want to do, and what type of risk you want to take. If you know the city you want to practice in, you're definitely better off being top 1% at the local school than being even top 1/3 at the T14. For biglaw hiring, there's a chance you'll be viewed equally in both circumstances, but for nearly every other type of job (including clerkships) you'll be better off as the top kid at the local school. That's because you'll be viewed as an all-star, and all your profs will be going to bat for you. If you can guarantee top 1% then the scholarship is just icing on the cake. If you're good at networking, you'll probably be OK at the lower ranked school.


How can you ever, in any circumstance, ever determine that you're going to be the top 1% at any school? There are so many factors going into that that you can't predict. What if you get the flu during your exam? What if the professor grades your exam while needing a smoke break and gives you a lower grade? What if there are a few other gunners in your low-ranked school that out-performs you? With this in mind, how can it ever be an even remotely safe bet to choose a low-ranked school and predict being at the very top, even if you are exceptionally smart?


this is just a hypothetical situation, regardless i think probability wise it is higher to do better at a lower ranking school vs. doing better at a higher ranking school

clerker
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby clerker » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:53 am

beautyistruth wrote:
clerker wrote:
ltezen wrote:this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!



It all depends on what you want to do, and what type of risk you want to take. If you know the city you want to practice in, you're definitely better off being top 1% at the local school than being even top 1/3 at the T14. For biglaw hiring, there's a chance you'll be viewed equally in both circumstances, but for nearly every other type of job (including clerkships) you'll be better off as the top kid at the local school. That's because you'll be viewed as an all-star, and all your profs will be going to bat for you. If you can guarantee top 1% then the scholarship is just icing on the cake. If you're good at networking, you'll probably be OK at the lower ranked school.


How can you ever, in any circumstance, ever determine that you're going to be the top 1% at any school? There are so many factors going into that that you can't predict. What if you get the flu during your exam? What if the professor grades your exam while needing a smoke break and gives you a lower grade? What if there are a few other gunners in your low-ranked school that out-performs you? With this in mind, how can it ever be an even remotely safe bet to choose a low-ranked school and predict being at the very top, even if you are exceptionally smart?


I don't disagree with you here. There are so many factors (out of your control) that determine your grades that it would be a mistake to head to a school expecting to be top 10%, even if it's a tier 4 school. But we also don't know how you'll perform at the T14 either.

My point is that if you are certain about the market you want to practice in, it's better to go to the local school with a full ride. There are so many more factors--outside of grades--that determine how easy it is to find a job you want. I went to a T14 and I had friends who had good grades who had trouble breaking into their home markets because biglaw jobs were far and few between, and they had no other options (such as small law or medium law) because attending the T14 did nothing for expanding their network at their home city.

I think the reason why everyone advocates heading to the T14 on this board is because most people would rather get something in biglaw than zero in on a very specific local market. Which is fine; that was how I felt before law school too. But that's not the same as if you're certain that you want to practice in a particular city.

beautyistruth
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby beautyistruth » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:56 am

That sounds more reasonable. I guess what I was getting at was that if you need 1% to have a shot at reasonable employment (reasonable being adjustible based on what your loan repayment situation is), that seemed ridiculously chancy to predict being top 1%. However, above median + good networking seems to sound more reasonable.

I thought that the general wisdom on the boards was that aiming for the T-14 was encouraged because you have more leeway to do poorly. For example, below top 10% at a state school might put you in a bad place, but above median at NYU would put you in a better place to find reasonable employment. Then again, I haevn't heard much about the factors in job-searching beyond grades.

This thread is pertinent for my situation because I've been accepted at both NYU and UW and trying to decide between the two. Seattle's my home city and if I go to UW, living with my parents would essentially make my CoL for the next three years very near $0. This, coupled with in-state tution, makes the overal CoA much lower than going to NYU, and I'd be perfectly happy taking a lower paying job in Seattle. (Median looks like it's $90 K, which I'd be thrilled with... I'd be happy with $40K and up, honestly). I don't, however, want to end up unemployed. At this point, I'm going with the assumption that I'll be paying sticker at both schools, since UW seems to be extrodinarly stingy with merit aid.

Thoughts?

LRGhost
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby LRGhost » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:06 pm

beautyistruth wrote:
I thought that the general wisdom on the boards was that aiming for the T-14 was encouraged because you have more leeway to do poorly. For example, below top 10% at a state school might put you in a bad place, but above median at NYU would put you in a better place to find reasonable employment. Then again, I haevn't heard much about the factors in job-searching beyond grades.

Thoughts?


The difference isn't being in a bad place, it's just making less. At a good state school, you can get local small law but you're looking at $40k-80k in pay. If you have minimal debt, this isn't necessarily bad. Your career trajectory may even be better than a student in the top 25% from a T6 with big law. Something that's important to remember is that a lot of the advice here is directed towards getting big law. Is it harder overall to get a job from a lower-ranked school? Absolutely. Are you unemployed if you're not in the top 10%? Not at all.

But another thing to consider, and rarely do people seem to talk about it, is the career path from big law. Most people are gone within three or four years. Some are laid off, some leave by their own volition, and some are sort of in between. With stealth layoffs, it's really hard to tell who is told to leave and who reads in between the lines come review time and moves out before they get laid off and severance. The thing is, the exit options aren't guarantees. Not everyone gets 120k in-house jobs. Not everyone can get AUSA. Plenty of people are forced to take the jobs that state U law school grads have been in for a few years, except those people have better experience and no debt. There's also the issue of moving to where your job is. Maybe you find something that pays enough but isn't in NYC/DC/Chicago.

Obviously some people get great jobs or survive through big law but a lot of people leave law entirely. These are things you'd have to consider in your decision and 'situation reality'. Everyone saying that they can pay off big loans by the end of their big law career are as delusional as students going to T50s thinking they're $160k secure.

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star fox
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby star fox » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:51 pm

ltezen wrote:this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!


It all depends on what you want to do and where you want to be after Law School. If you're content with working mid-law because big-law isn't your thing than I would say go to a Tier I in the area you want to work that offers you a good scholarship. If you really want to do BigLaw and dream of being a super rich partner one day than the Lower Top 14 is probably the way to go. Less debt risk vs. Higher employment prospects is something I'm sure many 0Ls struggle with. One thing I would say is never count on being one of the very top students at any school, regardless of your list of acceptances. You really think the extra 2 points on the LSAT that gave you a scholarship over other students attending that school means you are going to do so much better on your Law School Exams? Everyone at just about any Law School is going to be smart, motivated, and "willing to work harder than I ever have in my life" so don't bank on being in the top 10 %.. and heck you could go to Cooley and I still would say you're being overconfident as a 0L if you claim you'll be in the top 1 %. Most I would say you can reasonably count on is being in the upper half if your UG GPA and LSAT statistics place you comfortably above the entering class medians and you work as hard as everyone claims they will.

Again it just all comes down to the individual when making these types of decisions. A kid from Texas who wants to work in Texas would have to be an idiot prestige-whore to not go to UT in favor of Georgetown or Cornell. But if you're a Northeast kid who wants to work in NYC you should probably go to one of those two schools over Fordham. The big markets (NY/LA/Chicago...) probably require T14 whereas if you're cool with a secondary market than the Top 50 school closest to it will make a bit more sense.

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uconjak
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby uconjak » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:42 pm

I would say this, After talking to some friends of my dads last weekend, they both told me basically the same thing. They were both Creighton Law school grads. top 10%of thier class.

1. need to know what type of Law you want to do. SOme folks are not sure so that could definatly be an issue.
2. graduate with the least amount of Debt you can.
3. generally speaking, if you want to live in LA or cali, go to a cali school. some schools have a signifigant reach across the country (T14's), But are they worth the cost?

They both got internships at good law firms in the Omaha area. One ended up at US justice Dept. the other in the FBI. I have already been accepted at several schools....on profile. I told them which ones they told me All of the schools have enought "cache" to get me in the door and to be sucessful as long as I am willing to work in law school and after. I am interested in being a Prosecuter/FBI?justice Dept. type of govt work.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:31 pm

uconjak wrote:I would say this, After talking to some friends of my dads last weekend, they both told me basically the same thing. They were both Creighton Law school grads. top 10%of thier class.

1. need to know what type of Law you want to do. SOme folks are not sure so that could definatly be an issue.
2. graduate with the least amount of Debt you can.
3. generally speaking, if you want to live in LA or cali, go to a cali school. some schools have a signifigant reach across the country (T14's), But are they worth the cost?

They both got internships at good law firms in the Omaha area. One ended up at US justice Dept. the other in the FBI. I have already been accepted at several schools....on profile. I told them which ones they told me All of the schools have enought "cache" to get me in the door and to be sucessful as long as I am willing to work in law school and after. I am interested in being a Prosecuter/FBI?justice Dept. type of govt work.

The only way to follow #2 and go to a school that actually gives you real job prospects is to retake the LSAT until you've maxed out your points on that damn thing. Follow your own advice.

ETA: At the very least study your ass off and retake in June

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dingbat
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby dingbat » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:46 pm

ltezen wrote:this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!
T14 doesn't guarantee a good outcome, but it makes it a lot more likely than anywhere else.

That being said, I turned down a T14 to go to a T30 with money

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uconjak
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Re: Job Market and Financial Situation Reality

Postby uconjak » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:36 pm

dingbat wrote:
ltezen wrote:this may have been asked throughout the thread, but as i can't find anything here it goes:

the traditional mindset seems to be that only T14 and you will be good, but given the current job market and economy I am starting to question this mindset...

are there people considering going to a low tier school with scholarship vs. T14 with lots of debt and minimal need access aid?

also, given that law firms have a 'general' trend to recruit locally, even for the big firms, if you did really well, like top 1% at the low tier school vs. doing mediocre or low at a T14 school....would going to the low tier school be a wiser choice?

any thoughts would be appreciated!

thanks!
T14 doesn't guarantee a good outcome, but it makes it a lot more likely than anywhere else.

That being said, I turned down a T14 to go to a T30 with money


I know if GULC gives me the $ i will go to DC. But they got to be close 80% of USC




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