Long-term benefit of going to HYS

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brownpride
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Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby brownpride » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:36 am

I understand that in the short-term, HYS gives much better opportunities for clerkships, competitive government jobs, etc. If one simply wants BigLaw then I know that it makes equal or more sense to take $$$ at a lower T14 in many cases. However, while my long-term goal is to work in PI/policy at a high level, financial necessity dictates that I'll be pursuing BigLaw out of law school for at least a couple of years. I know that many say that after you start working then the school you attended doesn't matter much. But if I have high aspirations (which may include running for office one day, starting up my own policy projects, or doing policy work in another country) will the name/network of an HYS school be a significant enough asset to warrant taking on the cost of that school?

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dingbat
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby dingbat » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:47 am

brownpride wrote:I understand that in the short-term, HYS gives much better opportunities for clerkships, competitive government jobs, etc. If one simply wants BigLaw then I know that it makes equal or more sense to take $$$ at a lower T14 in many cases.
Actually, there are very few schools worth turning down HYS for. Look at it this way. The lower T14 has barely a coinflip of a chance at getting biglaw (even less for Georgetown), whereas at HYS just about everyone who wants biglaw can get it
brownpride wrote: However, while my long-term goal is to work in PI/policy at a high level, financial necessity dictates that I'll be pursuing BigLaw out of law school for at least a couple of years.
Coming out of HYS, the financial necessity part might not be true (especially Y), but to answer the question as asked:
A) HYS gives you a better chance at getting into biglaw; not just that, but of getting into the better end of biglaw (V5) than other law schools. Your exit options will probably be better coming out of those firms than out of smaller ones.
brownpride wrote: I know that many say that after you start working then the school you attended doesn't matter much. But if I have high aspirations (which may include running for office one day, starting up my own policy projects, or doing policy work in another country) will the name/network of an HYS school be a significant enough asset to warrant taking on the cost of that school?
The further out you are, the less the name of your school matters; same with the network, because you should be building your own. That being said, you're more likely to be building a better network coming out of the better school, and starting at the better law firm.

Basically, there's very little reason to turn down HYS; maybe a significant scholarship to CCN, but that's about it

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:00 am

To the extent that I know anything about this, I agree with Dingbat. I also want to point out though, since these questions get asked a lot, that we really don't know the answer to your questions. 95% of us are just guessing, or putting together an answer based on a few anecdotes. Even the older lawyers on the site have mostly spent their time in Biglaw, and haven't moved into policy or politics. It might be that policy groups keep caring about your school until you retire, and it might be they don't care after your first job. Probably it's a mix depending on the group. So, basically, I think you should go to HYS, but I really don't know.
Last edited by Elston Gunn on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

toothbrush
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby toothbrush » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:05 am

I agree with Dingbat. However, correlation would show that HYS DOES indeed have better yields for elected office / pres / scotus etc ? Correlation =/= causation but if I wanted any of that I'd look to the correlation?

edit: I don't know if "Better yields" is appropriate. Maybe this whole comment is dumb. Dingbat will surely say soon enough.

brownpride
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby brownpride » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:22 am

dingbat wrote:
brownpride wrote:I understand that in the short-term, HYS gives much better opportunities for clerkships, competitive government jobs, etc. If one simply wants BigLaw then I know that it makes equal or more sense to take $$$ at a lower T14 in many cases.
Actually, there are very few schools worth turning down HYS for. Look at it this way. The lower T14 has barely a coinflip of a chance at getting biglaw (even less for Georgetown), whereas at HYS just about everyone who wants biglaw can get it
brownpride wrote: However, while my long-term goal is to work in PI/policy at a high level, financial necessity dictates that I'll be pursuing BigLaw out of law school for at least a couple of years.
Coming out of HYS, the financial necessity part might not be true (especially Y), but to answer the question as asked:
A) HYS gives you a better chance at getting into biglaw; not just that, but of getting into the better end of biglaw (V5) than other law schools. Your exit options will probably be better coming out of those firms than out of smaller ones.
brownpride wrote: I know that many say that after you start working then the school you attended doesn't matter much. But if I have high aspirations (which may include running for office one day, starting up my own policy projects, or doing policy work in another country) will the name/network of an HYS school be a significant enough asset to warrant taking on the cost of that school?
The further out you are, the less the name of your school matters; same with the network, because you should be building your own. That being said, you're more likely to be building a better network coming out of the better school, and starting at the better law firm.

Basically, there's very little reason to turn down HYS; maybe a significant scholarship to CCN, but that's about it


Thanks for this. I should clarify - I am basically thinking about the alternative of a major scholarship at CCN, and from there I know that BigLaw chances are quite good. If I was to compare my opportunities going to CCN with little debt vs. HYS with a lot, seeking to do BigLaw for a while and then transition into my other things, do you think HYS confers a significant advantage there? I say BigLaw and financial necessity because of some other personal factors which necessitate earning good money being the primary consideration for a few years after law school.

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dingbat
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby dingbat » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:26 am

toothbrush wrote:I agree with Dingbat. However, correlation would show that HYS DOES indeed have better yields for elected office / pres / scotus etc ? Correlation =/= causation but if I wanted any of that I'd look to the correlation?

edit: I don't know if "Better yields" is appropriate. Maybe this whole comment is dumb. Dingbat will surely say soon enough.

I think you're spot on.

Name dropping "Yale" or "Harvard" is always impressive (except for Clarence Thomas), your track record is far more important - having done exceptional things can make up for going to a no-name school, but going to HYS will not make up for not doing anything with your life. Thing is, it's easier to get that track record coming out of HYS than anywhere else.

To put it into perspective, if you go to, say, Brooklyn Lawbear with me here, you've got to be in the top 10% to be able to get a biglaw job. Even then, it's probably V100, not V5. If you work at a V5, you work on the biggest cases, whereas at the V100, you might not ever work on the type of things that matter for future hiring. So, it's that much harder to get any kind of track record. You're also less likely to work with people who end up in position to help you along the way. If you do get into a policy position (which'll probably take longer), it'll be for a lesser candidate (maybe working for a state representative, rather than a U.S. senator). we can extrapolate further, but you get the point.
Now, the difference between Brooklyn and Yale is huge, but the same is true to a much lesser extent between HYS and the rest of the T14. The better the school, the better your chances of landing that great starting job, the greater your chances of creating those great opportunities. The difference might not be that big, say, between Columbia and NYU, in which case it might be worth it to take the lesser school (NYU) because you feel it's a better fit. But the difference between, say, Chicago and Northwestern*, might be big enough to require serious consideration
*I don't actually know much about either of these schools; please no one take offense

toothbrush
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby toothbrush » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:27 am

brownpride wrote:Thanks for this. I should clarify - I am basically thinking about the alternative of a major scholarship at CCN, and from there I know that BigLaw chances are quite good. If I was to compare my opportunities going to CCN with little debt vs. HYS with a lot, seeking to do BigLaw for a while and then transition into my other things, do you think HYS confers a significant advantage there? I say BigLaw and financial necessity because of some other personal factors which necessitate earning good money being the primary consideration for a few years after law school.


I think the point is that you're looking for unquantifiable factors. As Dingbat said, even the older TLS posters who are established are in BigLaw and cannot speak to the advantages of school rep (HYS) in other prospects. I PERSONALLY would imagine the network and benefits of being HYS alumni would confer SOME advantage (not necessarily significant) in the long term, but again, it's not quantifiable. However, you could make a good argument to say that the benefits of being well off financially SOONER post-LS because of taking CCN biglaw would also yield significant benefits.

IMO if you get HYS and don't mind the location then take it unless you have 75% scholly at CLS or something..

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dingbat
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby dingbat » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:32 am

brownpride wrote:Thanks for this. I should clarify - I am basically thinking about the alternative of a major scholarship at CCN, and from there I know that BigLaw chances are quite good. If I was to compare my opportunities going to CCN with little debt vs. HYS with a lot, seeking to do BigLaw for a while and then transition into my other things, do you think HYS confers a significant advantage there? I say BigLaw and financial necessity because of some other personal factors which necessitate earning good money being the primary consideration for a few years after law school.

In that case, I'd take Columbia with money over Yale without, easily. I don't know anything about Stanford, so I can't comment there, but I can tell you that the rankings you should be looking at are the NLJ250

AntipodeanPhil wrote:The 2011 NLJ 250 Employment Data has come out. I know there is a thread on this topic in the 'Legal Employment' forum, but since it is highly relevant to choosing a law school, I thought I'd start a thread on it here.

Here's the link to the data:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

Also, since the percentages fluctuate from year to year, I made a spreadsheet with the data for the last three year, along with a mean and rankings.

Image

For people new to TLS: the numbers above are the percentages of each class that end up at a firm in the NLJ 250, which is a ranking of the 250 largest law firms in the US. The NLJ 250 is a crude proxy for 'Big Law.' It doesn't include people who get clerkships and then go to Big Law after that (over 10% of the class at some schools).


Note that it's a little misleading, because the quality of firm that NYU places into, for example, is better than the quality of firm that Penn places into.


also, this:
toothbrush wrote:IMO if you get HYS and don't mind the location then take it unless you have 75% scholly at CLS or something..or Chicago

toothbrush
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby toothbrush » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:35 am

dingbat wrote:
brownpride wrote:Thanks for this. I should clarify - I am basically thinking about the alternative of a major scholarship at CCN, and from there I know that BigLaw chances are quite good. If I was to compare my opportunities going to CCN with little debt vs. HYS with a lot, seeking to do BigLaw for a while and then transition into my other things, do you think HYS confers a significant advantage there? I say BigLaw and financial necessity because of some other personal factors which necessitate earning good money being the primary consideration for a few years after law school.

In that case, I'd take Columbia with money over Yale without, easily. I don't know anything about Stanford, so I can't comment there, but I can tell you that the rankings you should be looking at are the NLJ250

AntipodeanPhil wrote:The 2011 NLJ 250 Employment Data has come out. I know there is a thread on this topic in the 'Legal Employment' forum, but since it is highly relevant to choosing a law school, I thought I'd start a thread on it here.

Here's the link to the data:
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520

Also, since the percentages fluctuate from year to year, I made a spreadsheet with the data for the last three year, along with a mean and rankings.

Image

For people new to TLS: the numbers above are the percentages of each class that end up at a firm in the NLJ 250, which is a ranking of the 250 largest law firms in the US. The NLJ 250 is a crude proxy for 'Big Law.' It doesn't include people who get clerkships and then go to Big Law after that (over 10% of the class at some schools).


Note that it's a little misleading, because the quality of firm that NYU places into, for example, is better than the quality of firm that Penn places into.


also, this:
toothbrush wrote:IMO if you get HYS and don't mind the location then take it unless you have 75% scholly at CLS or something..or Chicago


The problem here is that Y and C do place in similar firms. However, more people from Y go into clerking and thus do not make up a % like C does. From memory. Y gets like 25% clerks while C gets 10%. If you put that 15% into the NJ250 then Y looks more competitive ,etc.

I certainly do not think that people strike out for Biglaw from Y. It's just they have other *better* options.

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dingbat
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Re: Long-term benefit of going to HYS

Postby dingbat » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:53 am

toothbrush wrote:The problem here is that Y and C do place in similar firms. However, more people from Y go into clerking and thus do not make up a % like C does. From memory. Y gets like 25% clerks while C gets 10%. If you put that 15% into the NJ250 then Y looks more competitive ,etc.

I certainly do not think that people strike out for Biglaw from Y. It's just they have other *better* options.

grumble, grumble - you're absolutely right, and I completely failed to mention that disclaimer as well. Check the below link for a wonderful breakdown of employment stats:

drmguy wrote:I was posting in the other thread, but since I spent a long time on this I don't want it to disappear on page 5 of the other thread.

Detailed Employment Statistics

If you have any suggestions for changes let me know.

Here's the source: http://placementsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/home.aspx




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