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45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:13 pm
by arklaw13
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Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:31 pm
by northwood
first off.. you cant assume that you will be top 5%. Thats very presumptions and arrogant, even at a TTT. You need to make this decision with your fiancee. What are your stipulations to keep the scholarship? What are Michigan's? Can your fiance find a job somewhere else? DO you want to move? Those are answers that only you and your fiancee can answer.

That being said, I'd normally say go to Michigan. 100K is a lot of money, but its not a lot of money for 7 years of school, if you look at the total cost and time, of getting the degree, including undergrad.

Ten years down the road, when you have been practicing, the thing that matters is how much income you can bring to your firm, or if you are in litigation, your winning percentage, and reputation, not where you went to school.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:46 pm
by 005618502
Dylanlj13 wrote: I'll probably do well enough to be in the top 5 or better given the quality of students there.


Hahahahahah

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:52 pm
by sinfiery
If you think you will stay and your analysis of the job prospects are accurate, TTT.

If you ever want to leave said place, ever? Michigan.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:19 pm
by arklaw13
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Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:44 am
by Rahviveh
Not even an option with that stipulation. A top 50% conditional full ride is not a full ride, its a scam

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:47 am
by northwood
i say michigan. From what I understand, the only stipulation you need is to be eligible to continue to 2L to keep it. And if you really wanted to go back, work back home during your summers.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:57 am
by IAFG
Why isnt Vandy on the table? Surely they will meet or beat Mich's offer?

If you can't use Mich money to negotiate your way out of the TTT stips, you do not have the necessary hustle in you to get a job from a TTT.

Also, I bet you $50 you do NOT finish in the top 5 or even the top 10 people at the TTT.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:57 am
by dsn32
Michigan stips are 2.0 (nearly impossible not to get) and full course load (again, just stay a full-time student). Although I will say the market for teachers in Michigan is over-saturated as hell. So it could be very difficult for your fiancee to find work here.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:16 am
by AllTheLawz
Dude.. barring children or extreme need to stay in a given city, this isn't even a decision. It's one thing to be considering full-ride at Michigan over minor money at HYS but for decent money at Michigan versus tier 3 your considerations are barely even valid.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:03 am
by arklaw13
IAFG wrote:Why isnt Vandy on the table? Surely they will meet or beat Mich's offer?


I'm in at Vandy, but I haven't received any award information yet. I don't know if they send theirs out later or if I just wasn't offered any. That is a good idea though.

IAFG wrote:If you can't use Mich money to negotiate your way out of the TTT stips, you do not have the necessary hustle in you to get a job from a TTT.


I'm not sure if the stip can be negotiated at all. I'm definitely going to try though.

IAFG wrote:Also, I bet you $50 you do NOT finish in the top 5 or even the top 10 people at the TTT.


Statistically speaking, that is probably a good bet for you to make. Let's hope you owe me $50 in three years if I go to the TTT :) There's only 140 per class at the TTT, so top 10 isn't as bad as it sounds.

AllTheLawz wrote:Dude.. barring children or extreme need to stay in a given city, this isn't even a decision. It's one thing to be considering full-ride at Michigan over minor money at HYS but for decent money at Michigan versus tier 3 your considerations are barely even valid.


My main concern is the debt. If I were going to NY or DC and were going to make 160k starting out, 80k of debt isn't a big deal. But the most I will make starting in my city is 80k and that's if I get into one of three firms that pay around that, which could be a big if, given that I will be coming from an out of state school with little to no networking. I realize the opportunity to go to Michigan is a great one, but I think I do have valid concerns.

dsn32 wrote:Michigan stips are 2.0 (nearly impossible not to get) and full course load (again, just stay a full-time student). Although I will say the market for teachers in Michigan is over-saturated as hell. So it could be very difficult for your fiancee to find work here.


Do you know if that's the situation in Ann Arbor and the surrounding areas? I really have no idea. She'll be graduating first in her class with strong credentials, but I don't know if districts are leery of hiring out of state applicants, especially when we'll be out of there in three years.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:26 am
by dr123
Dylanlj13 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Why isnt Vandy on the table? Surely they will meet or beat Mich's offer?


I'm in at Vandy, but I haven't received any award information yet. I don't know if they send theirs out later or if I just wasn't offered any. That is a good idea though.

IAFG wrote:If you can't use Mich money to negotiate your way out of the TTT stips, you do not have the necessary hustle in you to get a job from a TTT.


I'm not sure if the stip can be negotiated at all. I'm definitely going to try though.

IAFG wrote:Also, I bet you $50 you do NOT finish in the top 5 or even the top 10 people at the TTT.


Statistically speaking, that is probably a good bet for you to make. Let's hope you owe me $50 in three years if I go to the TTT :) There's only 140 per class at the TTT, so top 10 isn't as bad as it sounds.

AllTheLawz wrote:Dude.. barring children or extreme need to stay in a given city, this isn't even a decision. It's one thing to be considering full-ride at Michigan over minor money at HYS but for decent money at Michigan versus tier 3 your considerations are barely even valid.


My main concern is the debt. If I were going to NY or DC and were going to make 160k starting out, 80k of debt isn't a big deal. But the most I will make starting in my city is 80k and that's if I get into one of three firms that pay around that, which could be a big if, given that I will be coming from an out of state school with little to no networking. I realize the opportunity to go to Michigan is a great one, but I think I do have valid concerns.

dsn32 wrote:Michigan stips are 2.0 (nearly impossible not to get) and full course load (again, just stay a full-time student). Although I will say the market for teachers in Michigan is over-saturated as hell. So it could be very difficult for your fiancee to find work here.


Do you know if that's the situation in Ann Arbor and the surrounding areas? I really have no idea. She'll be graduating first in her class with strong credentials, but I don't know if districts are leery of hiring out of state applicants, especially when we'll be out of there in three years.


My mom's been a teacher in the A2 area for like ten years and yes, that is definitely the situation. Pretty much everyone wants to teach in the A2 area, and in addition to UM, EMU cranks out a ton of teachers.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:56 am
by ajax
Michigan

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:21 am
by northwood
put in a poll

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:34 am
by francesfarmer
Your answer is wait on Vanderbilt and get them to match Michigan. Make no mention of your fiance in that discussion.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:22 pm
by typ3
Are people on this thread serious? Go to the local TTT in your home market where you want to practice with no debt. That shiny Michigan diploma won't get you more mileage in your homestate. FWIW a former editor in chief of the Stanford Law School works at a firm in my home rural state. He works besides TTTT grads and often those grads are more successful because they have ties more ties and connections to the region that they made in school. Remember, outside of the practice of law few people give a shit whether or not you went to a T-14 school.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:00 pm
by IAFG
typ3 wrote:Are people on this thread serious? Go to the local TTT in your home market where you want to practice with no debt.

As long as he ends up employed, that's TCR. If he doesn't, he's just another one of the DROVES of people with some shit local school JD.
That shiny Michigan diploma won't get you more mileage in your homestate.

Probably not (though maybe; firms in random small towns sometimes surprise you). What it buys him is a viable backup plan.
FWIW a former editor in chief of the Stanford Law School works at a firm in my home rural state. He works besides TTTT grads and often those grads are more successful because they have ties more ties and connections to the region that they made in school.

He probably occasionally gets his food served to him by TTTT grads too. Not everyone wins this bet. In fact, the majority don't.
Remember, outside of the practice of law few people give a shit whether or not you went to a T-14 school.

That's great. But we are talking about the practice of law and legal hiring, not OP getting to impress people at dinner parties, so what's your point?

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:23 pm
by Total Litigator
This would be a closer question if Michigan was at sticker. At 1/2 scholarship, go to Michigan...

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:20 pm
by arklaw13
northwood wrote:put in a poll


Poll is up.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:18 am
by dsn32
dr123 wrote:
Dylanlj13 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Why isnt Vandy on the table? Surely they will meet or beat Mich's offer?


I'm in at Vandy, but I haven't received any award information yet. I don't know if they send theirs out later or if I just wasn't offered any. That is a good idea though.

IAFG wrote:If you can't use Mich money to negotiate your way out of the TTT stips, you do not have the necessary hustle in you to get a job from a TTT.


I'm not sure if the stip can be negotiated at all. I'm definitely going to try though.

IAFG wrote:Also, I bet you $50 you do NOT finish in the top 5 or even the top 10 people at the TTT.


Statistically speaking, that is probably a good bet for you to make. Let's hope you owe me $50 in three years if I go to the TTT :) There's only 140 per class at the TTT, so top 10 isn't as bad as it sounds.

AllTheLawz wrote:Dude.. barring children or extreme need to stay in a given city, this isn't even a decision. It's one thing to be considering full-ride at Michigan over minor money at HYS but for decent money at Michigan versus tier 3 your considerations are barely even valid.


My main concern is the debt. If I were going to NY or DC and were going to make 160k starting out, 80k of debt isn't a big deal. But the most I will make starting in my city is 80k and that's if I get into one of three firms that pay around that, which could be a big if, given that I will be coming from an out of state school with little to no networking. I realize the opportunity to go to Michigan is a great one, but I think I do have valid concerns.

dsn32 wrote:Michigan stips are 2.0 (nearly impossible not to get) and full course load (again, just stay a full-time student). Although I will say the market for teachers in Michigan is over-saturated as hell. So it could be very difficult for your fiancee to find work here.


Do you know if that's the situation in Ann Arbor and the surrounding areas? I really have no idea. She'll be graduating first in her class with strong credentials, but I don't know if districts are leery of hiring out of state applicants, especially when we'll be out of there in three years.


My mom's been a teacher in the A2 area for like ten years and yes, that is definitely the situation. Pretty much everyone wants to teach in the A2 area, and in addition to UM, EMU cranks out a ton of teachers.


Yeah, A2 area is highly sought after for teaching jobs because a ton of the high performing public districts are in the A2 area (as opposed to near Detroit). Also higher pay though. Another thing to consider is that new teachers, at least in the district I grew up in, get pink slipped almost every year until they reach tenure and can be up in the air as to whether or not they'll be returning well through the summer every year. Teaching in Michigan is not a good look for newcomers.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:08 am
by CO2016YEAH
Michigan. Capitalize on what little flexibility there is on the part of your fiance to potentially practice in other states. You haven't mentioned where you are from (likely for confidentiality reasons), but you have indicated it is a tight-knit community and ties made at the local school will matter; having said that, if a top 14 education won't carry any clout than it must be a rather small market. If the local market is quite small then it would be useful to have gone to school where your JD will offer portability.

"Don't count your chickens before they've hatched." You may, in fact, be a shoe-in for your scholly renewal; but many people have said that and gone on to pay sticker in years 2 and 3 at an institution below the ranks of which they had been admitted. 45% off 1L at Michigan is awesome! Check out the stips, but if it were me, I'd take Michigan at sticker over a TTT.

I'm in a position where I'm hoping for a Tier 1 or a decent Tier 2 with money. If the best I can do is a TTT (even for free) I think I will just spend the three years doing something more productive. I live in a large, but saturated, legal market. There are TTT's and TTTT's here that have many alumni working in the local market; nevertheless, the conventional wisdom is still to go to the best school you can get into. A school with local ties is advantageous, but this doesn't mean you should go for any old local school just because they are throwing money at you and there is a local network. You may have to really strive to network if you do go back to work at home. I'd chase big money in a larger market, at least until the debt was paid off and I'd gained some experience, and then go home to be a crusher.

As I've been told by someone who deserves a great deal of credibility on the subject, the law is a hierarchical profession; where you go to school stays with you for the rest of your career, and it is difficult to shift "ranks." Look at the schools the elite of the legal domain attended. Take the current Supreme Court, for example; not a TTT in the bunch. You may not aspire to the Supreme Court, but you don't want to sell yourself short by entering the legal profession at the bottom of the ranks when you have an awesome opportunity to enter at (or near) the top. Just my $.02.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:12 am
by worldtraveler
Counting on being the top of your class is foolish. How many other people at this TTT are going there thinking the same thing?

These can't possibly be your only two options. If you are really debt averse, there has to be a T2 that would give you money if Michigan is willing to give you that much.

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:59 am
by dingbat
There's two questions left unanswered:
1) how insular is your home market?
2) what are the employment statistics at the TTT?

If the market is very insular (and you really want to end up there) you might not get a job from Michigan. You might want to try contacting some attorneys at the firm (preferably ones who did not go to the local TTT) and ask them about it

If the TTT has horrible employment statistics, then you should be very wary about going there. Graduating with no job is worse than graduating with a boatload of debt that needs to be paid back.

You also might want to research whether the TTT section stacks - meaning that they pit everyone with a scholarship against each other, so that a lot of them lose out.
That being said, I'd probably go for Michigan

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:02 am
by jkpolk
U of M. Decidedly sweeter alumni

Re: 45% at Michigan or Full Ride at Local TTT?

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:57 pm
by ndirish2010
Michigan for sure. Not close.