Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)
User avatar
banjo
Posts: 1345
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:00 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby banjo » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:35 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Trying to work in a market outside of the region where your school is located, without high grades, is a headache period. Firms are just very accustomed to hiring from a set group of schools (usually in their region) and they don't like going outside of that unless the candidate has stellar credentials. Quite frankly this is true even for people FROM the area where the firm is. I'm not saying that you won't or can't get hired from a firm located out of your school's market. But in this economy it's not a good idea to go into law school planning on that. Firms are just in a mindset right now where they are only trying to hire people who fit the exact mold they are looking for, and who they don't have to go through any extra hurdles/work to hire.

As far as the Penn thing goes, based off of the GPA hiring data flightoftheearls and some other poster were discussing/describing a while back--Penn isn't any different from UVA, Michigan, Duke etc. The firms are hiring from the same general class rank at all of those schools. Which means that Penn probably places more people in biglaw because of market choice/location. I.e. the NYC firms are used to hiring from there, more people from there aim for NYC jobs at Penn, there are more NYC jobs available in general, and even though they aren't gong any deeper into Penn's class they are hiring more from the given GPA cutoff range from Penn than they do at schools outside of where they focus on hiring. The problem with expecting Penn to provide you with this big boost over its peers for going there, is if you end up in that grade range where the firms won't hire you regardless. But if you are willing to do NYC Penn is probably the better bet all things equal.


As a side note I would tell most people to pick Penn over UVA and Michigan because of UVA's stupid way of obtaining a 3.3 mean ( professors can give out literally ANY grade to a student as long as the class mean is 3.3.--meaning there is a lot of variance. You have people getting C's and B-s like mad--although it's balanced by a lot of A range grades.) and Michigan's strangely low curve (which regardless of class rank being the true factor, does turn off some employers when they compare it to schools like NU). Penn and many of the other top 14 have enough sense to not only mandate a 3.3 or whatever specific median/mean but to also designate the exact distribution (which includes NOT allowing grades below a B- and even very few of those).


Okay, this model makes sense. So would you say that, due to its location and historical placement patterns, an NYU student who makes the GPA cutoff for NYC firms is better positioned to secure a market-paying gig in NYC than a Chicago student who also makes the cutoff? Or would its small class size skew the result in Chicago's favor? Is below median equally screwed at both schools?

(thanks in advance...I'm jotting down some questions to ask at my chicago interview this coming week...)

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:46 pm

law2015 wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:My honest opinion is this that outside HYSCC, pick a school in a big city so you can intern during 2L and 3L in case you miss big law.

Many 0Ls here do not emphasize how important this is and how beneficial interning is. So I would pick a school in a big city over Duke or Mich which are in bum f&%k. The great thing about GULC is that during the school year you are the top of the pack for USDOJ, SEC, DOE, Treasury, etc internships in the district.

This being said if had got into Duke or Mich as a 0L I would pick them over GULC. But I didn't and I am at a top 20.


The whole HYSCC is based on what? Chicago is not any better than NYU, Columbia maybe marginally. Also those places you mentioned are extremely hard to get unless you have great credentials.

Actually, for the last several years at least, Columbia has noticeably outplaced NYU

User avatar
scifiguy
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:41 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:06 pm

Can an argument be made that Columbia is actually in the same category as HYS? From employment statistics, they seem comparable. Whatcha guys think?

On paper, Yale or Stanford just "sounds" so much better, but really in terms of employment data it doesn't seem different from HYS.

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:08 pm

Desert Fox wrote:The big reason to go to the localish t14 is OCI interviewing. A lot of Chicago firms don't all go to each T14. A lot of Califorina firms don't go to New York schools. Sourthern schools don't seem to go very far.

One thing to watch for is over relying on simple %'s. A good part of the reason GULC does kinda shitty is their students focus on DC, a hard market. Northwestern students will do as bad, or worse trying to get DC. So comparing the two by pure NLJ% isn't really that fair. If you got to GULC and aim at NYC, you'd probably do just as well as if you went to Michigan or Duke or Northwestern.

Hierarchy of factors
1) Region you want to work in
2) Cost
3) personal issues.


So is #1 really important?

I mean, if you want to work in NYC and you know this as a 0L, is it harder to gun for it from GULC vs Duke vs Cornell vs Penn?


Or are local ties/OCI opportunities(From what I can gather, it's still in question wether OCI opportunities are any different for the different T14s)really that much superior to mass-mailing/cold-calling/etc strategies if all else is equal for the applicant?


Great thread btw.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:06 pm

sinfiery wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The big reason to go to the localish t14 is OCI interviewing. A lot of Chicago firms don't all go to each T14. A lot of Califorina firms don't go to New York schools. Sourthern schools don't seem to go very far.

One thing to watch for is over relying on simple %'s. A good part of the reason GULC does kinda shitty is their students focus on DC, a hard market. Northwestern students will do as bad, or worse trying to get DC. So comparing the two by pure NLJ% isn't really that fair. If you got to GULC and aim at NYC, you'd probably do just as well as if you went to Michigan or Duke or Northwestern.

Hierarchy of factors
1) Region you want to work in
2) Cost
3) personal issues.


So is #1 really important?

I mean, if you want to work in NYC and you know this as a 0L, is it harder to gun for it from GULC vs Duke vs Cornell vs Penn?


Or are local ties/OCI opportunities(From what I can gather, it's still in question wether OCI opportunities are any different for the different T14s)really that much superior to mass-mailing/cold-calling/etc strategies if all else is equal for the applicant?


Great thread btw.


I think, almost by going to a T14, you are going to a NYC regional school. They recruit heavily from all the T14. Some firms don't, but most do. And not even half hearted recruitment, they recruit hard.

Though, if you've lived in CA your whole life, go to Berkeley, NYC firms will be very suspect.

User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:15 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The big reason to go to the localish t14 is OCI interviewing. A lot of Chicago firms don't all go to each T14. A lot of Califorina firms don't go to New York schools. Sourthern schools don't seem to go very far.

One thing to watch for is over relying on simple %'s. A good part of the reason GULC does kinda shitty is their students focus on DC, a hard market. Northwestern students will do as bad, or worse trying to get DC. So comparing the two by pure NLJ% isn't really that fair. If you got to GULC and aim at NYC, you'd probably do just as well as if you went to Michigan or Duke or Northwestern.

Hierarchy of factors
1) Region you want to work in
2) Cost
3) personal issues.


So is #1 really important?

I mean, if you want to work in NYC and you know this as a 0L, is it harder to gun for it from GULC vs Duke vs Cornell vs Penn?


Or are local ties/OCI opportunities(From what I can gather, it's still in question wether OCI opportunities are any different for the different T14s)really that much superior to mass-mailing/cold-calling/etc strategies if all else is equal for the applicant?


Great thread btw.


I think, almost by going to a T14, you are going to a NYC regional school. They recruit heavily from all the T14. Some firms don't, but most do. And not even half hearted recruitment, they recruit hard.

Though, if you've lived in CA your whole life, go to Berkeley, NYC firms will be very suspect.


This is why I didn't apply to Boalt. Not that they would take me with my T2 GPA.

bdubs
Posts: 3729
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby bdubs » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:38 pm

scifiguy wrote:Can an argument be made that Columbia is actually in the same category as HYS? From employment statistics, they seem comparable. Whatcha guys think?

On paper, Yale or Stanford just "sounds" so much better, but really in terms of employment data it doesn't seem different from HYS.


No. Employment statistics are exactly that, just statistics. HYS students have much better options on the whole than Columbia. Grades will still matter a lot at Columbia and significantly less at HYS (where there are strange grading systems anyway). When you're talking T14 vs. non-T14 the absolute number employed in big firms matters, but at the HYS level the firm and location matter more than just getting a paycheck.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:42 pm

bdubs wrote:
scifiguy wrote:Can an argument be made that Columbia is actually in the same category as HYS? From employment statistics, they seem comparable. Whatcha guys think?

On paper, Yale or Stanford just "sounds" so much better, but really in terms of employment data it doesn't seem different from HYS.


No. Employment statistics are exactly that, just statistics. HYS students have much better options on the whole than Columbia. Grades will still matter a lot at Columbia and significantly less at HYS (where there are strange grading systems anyway). When you're talking T14 vs. non-T14 the absolute number employed in big firms matters, but at the HYS level the firm and location matter more than just getting a paycheck.

If they even want a firm; a whole world of fellowships, clerkships and PI is open to them that is out of reach for most of us non-HYS proles.

User avatar
scifiguy
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:41 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:14 am

bdubs wrote:
scifiguy wrote:Can an argument be made that Columbia is actually in the same category as HYS? From employment statistics, they seem comparable. Whatcha guys think?

On paper, Yale or Stanford just "sounds" so much better, but really in terms of employment data it doesn't seem different from HYS.


No. Employment statistics are exactly that, just statistics. HYS students have much better options on the whole than Columbia. Grades will still matter a lot at Columbia and significantly less at HYS (where there are strange grading systems anyway). When you're talking T14 vs. non-T14 the absolute number employed in big firms matters, but at the HYS level the firm and location matter more than just getting a paycheck.


What about Columbia possibly being > than Chicago and NYU? Many seem to say they're equal, but is that really true?

Is Columbia closer to HYS than it is to Chicago and NYU, at least? Or, still no?

User avatar
indigomachine
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:34 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby indigomachine » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:40 am

Tso excited for the 9 billionth round of "CCN? HYSC? CCNP? CC?"

User avatar
SaintsTheMetal
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:08 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:31 am

indigomachine wrote:Tso excited for the 9 billionth round of "CCN? HYSC? CCNP? CC?"


definitely YSHC PCN BNVMD CG :lol:

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:40 am

scifiguy wrote:
bdubs wrote:
scifiguy wrote:Can an argument be made that Columbia is actually in the same category as HYS? From employment statistics, they seem comparable. Whatcha guys think?

On paper, Yale or Stanford just "sounds" so much better, but really in terms of employment data it doesn't seem different from HYS.


No. Employment statistics are exactly that, just statistics. HYS students have much better options on the whole than Columbia. Grades will still matter a lot at Columbia and significantly less at HYS (where there are strange grading systems anyway). When you're talking T14 vs. non-T14 the absolute number employed in big firms matters, but at the HYS level the firm and location matter more than just getting a paycheck.


What about Columbia possibly being > than Chicago and NYU? Many seem to say they're equal, but is that really true?

Is Columbia closer to HYS than it is to Chicago and NYU, at least? Or, still no?

Columbia is not HYS, and I think they don't even try.
However, just as Y is the leader of HYS, Columbia is the leader of CCN (if it exists; otherwise the leader of the rest of the T14)

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:45 am

It's difficult to justify separating Columbia from Penn and Chicago. I don't see a real difference in employment outcomes among them. The rest of the T14 are mostly similar, with an edge to Northwestern.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:56 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:It's difficult to justify separating Columbia from Penn and Chicago. I don't see a real difference in employment outcomes among them. The rest of the T14 are mostly similar, with an edge to Northwestern.

I recall seeing the NLJ list for every year going back to 2005 and the top of the pile changes rankings change every year (see Cornell last year), but Columbia is consistently at or near the top, which is more than can be said for just about any other school.

I couldn't be bothered spending more than 5 minutes searching, so I'm only linking 2012, 2011, 2008 and 2007. Now go do your own homework
http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2011/
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLS

User avatar
somewhatwayward
Posts: 1446
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:10 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:42 am

BruceWayne wrote: As far as the Penn thing goes, based off of the GPA hiring data flightoftheearls and some other poster were discussing/describing a while back--Penn isn't any different from UVA, Michigan, Duke etc. The firms are hiring from the same general class rank at all of those schools. Which means that Penn probably places more people in biglaw because of market choice/location. I.e. the NYC firms are used to hiring from there, more people from there aim for NYC jobs at Penn, there are more NYC jobs available in general, and even though they aren't gong any deeper into Penn's class they are hiring more from the given GPA cutoff range from Penn than they do at schools outside of where they focus on hiring. The problem with expecting Penn to provide you with this big boost over its peers for going there, is if you end up in that grade range where the firms won't hire you regardless. But if you are willing to do NYC Penn is probably the better bet all things equal.


It seems like NYC firms are willing to go below median at Penn. Are you saying they are willing to do so at UVA as well? My impression from what you have said in the past was that NYC firms really didn't go below median at UVA much. I think the numbers also show that with 58% of Penn grads in large firms versus 37% of UVA grads. I understand that people will write back to this with vehemence telling me it is all self-selection, but I believe that below median people at UVA want a job more than a market, and if it was really a possibility for them to get NYC, they would do it - Penn's percentage wouldn't be more than 50% greater than UVA's. A lot of this does come down to the fact that UVA's class is just too damn big, and Penn's is the right size or perhaps a little too big. UVA simply can't place almost 400 students.

In the end, I think the smart move is to take Penn unless you get a pretty big scholarship to UVA. I am impressed by Penn's c/o 2011 numbers are decidedly unimpressed with UVA's.

As a side note I would tell most people to pick Penn over UVA and Michigan because of UVA's stupid way of obtaining a 3.3 mean ( professors can give out literally ANY grade to a student as long as the class mean is 3.3.--meaning there is a lot of variance. You have people getting C's and B-s like mad--although it's balanced by a lot of A range grades.) and Michigan's strangely low curve (which regardless of class rank being the true factor, does turn off some employers when they compare it to schools like NU). Penn and many of the other top 14 have enough sense to not only mandate a 3.3 or whatever specific median/mean but to also designate the exact distribution (which includes NOT allowing grades below a B- and even very few of those).


Wow, I didn't know that about UVA's grade distribution. That is really shitty because you know at a school with a 170 LSAT median, there are a lot of people who are really smart and will study smart and hard and produce amazing exam answers. If you don't constrain the # of As a professor can give in such a context but require every A to be matched with a C+, professors will be very tempted to give 20% As and another 20% A-s to the students who really impressed them and then match that with B-s and C+s to the bottom 40%. I don't think I have ever talked to a law professor about an exam in which they did not tell me they wished they could give more As.

The one thing I would note is that most T14 schools with grades do require B-s (usually like 4-7%) but professors can give discretionary C/D/Fs. They are not prevented from doing so as you say. In most of my 1L classes, there was a C or 2 and in one there was a D and an F. I don't fault the professor for the F because that person got 2 points when the median was like 35.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Borg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:24 pm

scifiguy wrote:Can an argument be made that Columbia is actually in the same category as HYS? From employment statistics, they seem comparable. Whatcha guys think?

On paper, Yale or Stanford just "sounds" so much better, but really in terms of employment data it doesn't seem different from HYS.


In terms of biglaw employment opportunities it's probably about the same as the others, but it falls short if you want to do something that isn't corporate. I took a harder look at Columbia than any of my other non-HYS choices before I decided because it seemed to offer more similar opportunities and there are some pretty impressive things about the school (corporate profs are phenomenal, more Forbes 400 alumni than any other school etc.). I don't think it's the same as HYS, but I think there is a non-insignificant distance between it and Chicago and NYU.

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:04 pm

dingbat wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:It's difficult to justify separating Columbia from Penn and Chicago. I don't see a real difference in employment outcomes among them. The rest of the T14 are mostly similar, with an edge to Northwestern.

I recall seeing the NLJ list for every year going back to 2005 and the top of the pile changes rankings change every year (see Cornell last year), but Columbia is consistently at or near the top, which is more than can be said for just about any other school.

I couldn't be bothered spending more than 5 minutes searching, so I'm only linking 2012, 2011, 2008 and 2007. Now go do your own homework
http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2011/
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLS


Thanks for this. It supports the assertion that Penn and Columbia are placement peers.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Borg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:It's difficult to justify separating Columbia from Penn and Chicago. I don't see a real difference in employment outcomes among them. The rest of the T14 are mostly similar, with an edge to Northwestern.

I recall seeing the NLJ list for every year going back to 2005 and the top of the pile changes rankings change every year (see Cornell last year), but Columbia is consistently at or near the top, which is more than can be said for just about any other school.

I couldn't be bothered spending more than 5 minutes searching, so I'm only linking 2012, 2011, 2008 and 2007. Now go do your own homework
http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2011/
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLS


Thanks for this. It supports the assertion that Penn and Columbia are placement peers.


Eh, wouldn't go that far. Penn gets people jobs, but if you look at placement in the really prestigious firms Columbia kicks the crap out of them.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:22 pm

Borg wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:It's difficult to justify separating Columbia from Penn and Chicago. I don't see a real difference in employment outcomes among them. The rest of the T14 are mostly similar, with an edge to Northwestern.

I recall seeing the NLJ list for every year going back to 2005 and the top of the pile changes rankings change every year (see Cornell last year), but Columbia is consistently at or near the top, which is more than can be said for just about any other school.

I couldn't be bothered spending more than 5 minutes searching, so I'm only linking 2012, 2011, 2008 and 2007. Now go do your own homework
http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2011/
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202543436520&THE_GOTO_LAW_SCHOOLS


Thanks for this. It supports the assertion that Penn and Columbia are placement peers.


Eh, wouldn't go that far. Penn gets people jobs, but if you look at placement in the really prestigious firms Columbia kicks the crap out of them.

Except for 2012 (an exception), Penn has lagged 2-6% behind columbia. A better statement would be that Penn>NYU

edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5831
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby 2014 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:44 pm

Anecdotally I will say that self selection is a factor at UChi. The vast majority of classmates I've talked to about regional preferences are very opposed to NYC. Not ambivalent, straight up against the idea. Now many of them will come around by OCI when unemployment looms but there are still a significant chunk who will refuse to bid NYC.

I haven't met or heard of a single person from here who aggressively targeted NYC and failed to land anything. From what I gather most people failing to get a SA bid other markets and missed the boat for NYC.

All that to say I feel like the perceived advantage Columbia or NYU has in NYC comes from their students being bright enough to target the most healthy market and the larger class sizes. I'm happy to see data otherwise but in lieu of that I'll continue to believe that UChi kids targeting NYC are at no disadvantage to the other 2 CCNs.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Borg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:34 pm

2014 wrote:Anecdotally I will say that self selection is a factor at UChi. The vast majority of classmates I've talked to about regional preferences are very opposed to NYC. Not ambivalent, straight up against the idea. Now many of them will come around by OCI when unemployment looms but there are still a significant chunk who will refuse to bid NYC.

I haven't met or heard of a single person from here who aggressively targeted NYC and failed to land anything. From what I gather most people failing to get a SA bid other markets and missed the boat for NYC.

All that to say I feel like the perceived advantage Columbia or NYU has in NYC comes from their students being bright enough to target the most healthy market and the larger class sizes. I'm happy to see data otherwise but in lieu of that I'll continue to believe that UChi kids targeting NYC are at no disadvantage to the other 2 CCNs.


Maybe, but statistics would be helpful.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:14 pm

Borg wrote:
2014 wrote:Anecdotally I will say that self selection is a factor at UChi. The vast majority of classmates I've talked to about regional preferences are very opposed to NYC. Not ambivalent, straight up against the idea. Now many of them will come around by OCI when unemployment looms but there are still a significant chunk who will refuse to bid NYC.

I haven't met or heard of a single person from here who aggressively targeted NYC and failed to land anything. From what I gather most people failing to get a SA bid other markets and missed the boat for NYC.

All that to say I feel like the perceived advantage Columbia or NYU has in NYC comes from their students being bright enough to target the most healthy market and the larger class sizes. I'm happy to see data otherwise but in lieu of that I'll continue to believe that UChi kids targeting NYC are at no disadvantage to the other 2 CCNs.


Maybe, but statistics would be helpful.

"Statistics"? Get some callback data from a current student at each of CCN and you'll see that they're peers.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Borg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:26 pm

IAFG wrote:
Borg wrote:
2014 wrote:Anecdotally I will say that self selection is a factor at UChi. The vast majority of classmates I've talked to about regional preferences are very opposed to NYC. Not ambivalent, straight up against the idea. Now many of them will come around by OCI when unemployment looms but there are still a significant chunk who will refuse to bid NYC.

I haven't met or heard of a single person from here who aggressively targeted NYC and failed to land anything. From what I gather most people failing to get a SA bid other markets and missed the boat for NYC.

All that to say I feel like the perceived advantage Columbia or NYU has in NYC comes from their students being bright enough to target the most healthy market and the larger class sizes. I'm happy to see data otherwise but in lieu of that I'll continue to believe that UChi kids targeting NYC are at no disadvantage to the other 2 CCNs.


Maybe, but statistics would be helpful.

"Statistics"? Get some callback data from a current student at each of CCN and you'll see that they're peers.


So post them if you've got them.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:29 pm

I'd just like to point out the irony on how a discussion on how regional T14 schools are only discusses NY.

User avatar
acrossthelake
Posts: 4432
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby acrossthelake » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:58 pm

I mean, I've had lawyers at biglaw firms who either currently are, or were before, tell me straight to my face that ties matter a lot to them, and that they favor local schools. They could be lying, but considering the placement of, say, SLS and Berkeley in NorCal over our (HLS) ability to place there (not that well), I believe it.




Return to “Law School FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest