Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)
User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:01 am

banjo wrote:I think I found what you guys are looking for: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

rayiner wrote:For C/O 2008 -2010:

I've clumped these into groups. The Vandy/USC/GW group is a little loose, because Vandy generally outperforms and GW underperforms the group, but the other two are pretty tight. The source spreadsheet is here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B11ijy ... WDNxX2JPQQ

Harvard:
2008 79%
2009 81%
2010 74%

Chicago, Penn:
2008 88%
2009 84%
2010 75%

NYU, Duke, Michigan, Virginia, NU:
2008 79%
2009 76%
2010 63%


Well done, banjo. This is what I was looking for. I will put together law firms of >50+fed clerkships. But give me some time, I have an awful hangover.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:21 am

Outside of HYS, go to the school in the region you want to practice. While a Columbia student can get Chicago, it's easier for a UChi or NU student. Same can be said about a Penn student who wants to get to California - it's just easier for Berkeley grads.
To a much lesser extent this is also true for DC and even New York.

even with HYS, it can make a difference, but not to the point of not attending

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby smaug_ » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:35 am

dingbat wrote:Outside of HYS, go to the school in the region you want to practice. While a Columbia student can get Chicago, it's easier for a UChi or NU student. Same can be said about a Penn student who wants to get to California - it's just easier for Berkeley grads.
To a much lesser extent this is also true for DC and even New York.


I know this is repeated ad nauseum on TLS, but I'd really like some data that shows this is true. I think it'll be hard to show even if you look at numbers: people are going to self select to the market they want to live in when all other factors are equal. I wonder how CLS/NYU students who demonstrate an interest in Chicago that is believable perform in Chicago, or how similarly situated Chicago and NU grads perform in NYC.

I'd wager that any underperformance that is seen is caused by firms reserving/expecting a certain number of students from a given school. I have a hard time believing that there would be a measurable hometown bias (that can be differentiated from students defaulting to a market) in major metropolitan areas.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:44 am

hibiki wrote:
dingbat wrote:Outside of HYS, go to the school in the region you want to practice. While a Columbia student can get Chicago, it's easier for a UChi or NU student. Same can be said about a Penn student who wants to get to California - it's just easier for Berkeley grads.
To a much lesser extent this is also true for DC and even New York.


I know this is repeated ad nauseum on TLS, but I'd really like some data that shows this is true. I think it'll be hard to show even if you look at numbers: people are going to self select to the market they want to live in when all other factors are equal. I wonder how CLS/NYU students who demonstrate an interest in Chicago that is believable perform in Chicago, or how similarly situated Chicago and NU grads perform in NYC.

I'd wager that any underperformance that is seen is caused by firms reserving/expecting a certain number of students from a given school. I have a hard time believing that there would be a measurable hometown bias (that can be differentiated from students defaulting to a market) in major metropolitan areas.

There is no data (on self-selection), but it's logical. Over 80% of Columbia students end up in NY, about 75% of Berkeley grads stay in California and 75% of UVa stay in the south or mid atlantic region. That means there's a strong alumni base and strong ties to employers in the region. If a Berkeley student wants to go to NY, there are a lot less firms/offices interviewing at OCI than there are for CA; there are a lot less alumni in NY that the student can contact, and the student will need to hustle to get there.
I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it's harder. Look at it this way. If a Columbia student wants a job in NY, the employers come to him/her (via OCI). If that same student wants to wind up on the west coast, while there is some interview opportunity via OCI, for the most part the student has to go to them (mail campaign, cold call, whatever it takes).
Admittedly, this isn't quite as difficult for certain major markets (enough Los Angeles offices attend OCI at Columbia and quite a few NY offices go to Berkeley), but if you have a specific location in mind, why create extra work for yourself, why limit your options?

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:46 am

hume85 wrote:
banjo wrote:I think I found what you guys are looking for: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

rayiner wrote:For C/O 2008 -2010:

I've clumped these into groups. The Vandy/USC/GW group is a little loose, because Vandy generally outperforms and GW underperforms the group, but the other two are pretty tight. The source spreadsheet is here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B11ijy ... WDNxX2JPQQ

Harvard:
2008 79%
2009 81%
2010 74%

Chicago, Penn:
2008 88%
2009 84%
2010 75%

NYU, Duke, Michigan, Virginia, NU:
2008 79%
2009 76%
2010 63%


Well done, banjo. This is what I was looking for. I will put together law firms of >50+fed clerkships. But give me some time, I have an awful hangover.

Also check out this link, which has far more detail (data is for 2011, even though thread title says 2010) http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=183053

User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:49 am

dingbat wrote:Outside of HYS, go to the school in the region you want to practice. While a Columbia student can get Chicago, it's easier for a UChi or NU student. Same can be said about a Penn student who wants to get to California - it's just easier for Berkeley grads.
To a much lesser extent this is also true for DC and even New York.

even with HYS, it can make a difference, but not to the point of not attending


This makes sense. But it really only makes sense for someone with strong regional preferences. With the weakness of the market I am not sure whether most students outside of HYS should be that picky.

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby smaug_ » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:54 am

dingbat wrote:But if you have a specific location in mind, why create extra work for yourself, why limit your options?


…because the options you're presented aren't equitable.

Moreover, you didn't show that the options are limited. I agree that self selection exists, but the previous assertion was the standard TLS line that it is "easier" to get a job in that market. If all you mean is that the firms come to you, sure, great, that should be obvious.

It seems like you (and people before you) are asserting more. You seem to be claiming that firms would prefer a student from that area over a well-qualified candidate from another T14 outside the area. That seems…odd to me. I was wondering if anyone had some data or even anecdotes about this. I haven't gone through the law hiring/interview process and you haven't either.

So, I'll repeat what I said above, I'd like some data that shows the "regional school is better even in a major market" statement is valid. TLS is full of half-truths and untruths. This line just reminds me of Chicago exceptionalism ("Offices all over the country are more likely to hire Chi grads because Chi is smaller and they want students from a diverse group of schools!") or "Sixigan" or other assertions that have turned out laughably wrong.

TL;DR I don't get why TLS makes assertions like this when folks can't/don't prove what they're saying.
Last edited by smaug_ on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:55 am

hume85 wrote:
dingbat wrote:Outside of HYS, go to the school in the region you want to practice. While a Columbia student can get Chicago, it's easier for a UChi or NU student. Same can be said about a Penn student who wants to get to California - it's just easier for Berkeley grads.
To a much lesser extent this is also true for DC and even New York.

even with HYS, it can make a difference, but not to the point of not attending


This makes sense. But it really only makes sense for someone with strong regional preferences. With the weakness of the market I am not sure whether most students outside of HYS should be that picky.

If you don't care about region, then look at employment statistics; but look at both 2010 and 2011 (and maybe 2009). Certain schools consistently outperform their rankings, others consistently underperform, but a school might have a banner year or a craptastic year (like when Michigan's career services told everyone to bid Chicago and it turned out to be the wrong move)

User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:56 am

dingbat wrote:
hume85 wrote:
banjo wrote:I think I found what you guys are looking for: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

rayiner wrote:For C/O 2008 -2010:

I've clumped these into groups. The Vandy/USC/GW group is a little loose, because Vandy generally outperforms and GW underperforms the group, but the other two are pretty tight. The source spreadsheet is here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B11ijy ... WDNxX2JPQQ

Harvard:
2008 79%
2009 81%
2010 74%

Chicago, Penn:
2008 88%
2009 84%
2010 75%

NYU, Duke, Michigan, Virginia, NU:
2008 79%
2009 76%
2010 63%


Well done, banjo. This is what I was looking for. I will put together law firms of >50+fed clerkships. But give me some time, I have an awful hangover.

Also check out this link, which has far more detail (data is for 2011, even though thread title says 2010) http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=183053


That looks pretty good. Thanks for saving me the time. But I think there are some mistakes. The numbers from Cornell and NYU look like they are from 2010, not 2011.

User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:57 am

dingbat wrote:
hume85 wrote:
dingbat wrote:Outside of HYS, go to the school in the region you want to practice. While a Columbia student can get Chicago, it's easier for a UChi or NU student. Same can be said about a Penn student who wants to get to California - it's just easier for Berkeley grads.
To a much lesser extent this is also true for DC and even New York.

even with HYS, it can make a difference, but not to the point of not attending


This makes sense. But it really only makes sense for someone with strong regional preferences. With the weakness of the market I am not sure whether most students outside of HYS should be that picky.

If you don't care about region, then look at employment statistics; but look at both 2010 and 2011 (and maybe 2009). Certain schools consistently outperform their rankings, others consistently underperform, but a school might have a banner year or a craptastic year (like when Michigan's career services told everyone to bid Chicago and it turned out to be the wrong move)


I agree. I also tried to account for self selection out of Biglaw when considering schools, but any such analysis will be flawed.
Last edited by hume85 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:00 pm

hibiki wrote:
dingbat wrote:But if you have a specific location in mind, why create extra work for yourself, why limit your options?


…because the options you're presented aren't equitable.

Moreover, you didn't show that the options are limited. I agree that self selection exists, but the previous assertion was the standard TLS line that it is "easier" to get a job in that market. If all you mean is that the firms come to you, sure, great, that should be obvious.

It seems like you (and people before you) are asserting more. You seem to be claiming that firms would prefer a student from that area over an equally well qualified candidate from another T14 outside the area. That seems…odd to me. I was wondering if anyone had some data or even anecdotes about this. I haven't gone through the law hiring/interview process and you haven't either.

So, I'll repeat what I said above, I'd like some data that shows the "regional school is better even in a major market" statement is valid. TLS is full of half-truths and untruths. This line just reminds me of Chicago exceptionalism ("Offices all over the country are more likely to hire Chi grads because Chi is smaller and they want students from a diverse group of schools!") or "Sixigan" or other assertions that have turned out laughably wrong.

TL;DR I don't get why TLS makes assertions like this when folks can't/don't prove what they're saying.

Firms have a preference to hire people from a school that's supplied a lot of students to them in the past and has a proven track record.
Beyond that, I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's just creating more work for yourself. If you want to work in a particular market, look for the schools that feed well into that market, because it is the easiest way to get there. Sure, someone from Duke should be able to find a job in California (if they're not too close to the bottom of the class), but it'd require a lot more work than someone at Berkeley. If you know you want to end up in California, save yourself the hassle, and go to Berkeley (unless, of course, Duke gives a much better scholarship. But for the sake of argument I'm gonna assume both options cost about the same, because adding a cost variable will make this discussion ridiculous)

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:03 pm

hume85 wrote:
dingbat wrote:
hume85 wrote:
dingbat wrote:Outside of HYS, go to the school in the region you want to practice. While a Columbia student can get Chicago, it's easier for a UChi or NU student. Same can be said about a Penn student who wants to get to California - it's just easier for Berkeley grads.
To a much lesser extent this is also true for DC and even New York.

even with HYS, it can make a difference, but not to the point of not attending


This makes sense. But it really only makes sense for someone with strong regional preferences. With the weakness of the market I am not sure whether most students outside of HYS should be that picky.

If you don't care about region, then look at employment statistics; but look at both 2010 and 2011 (and maybe 2009). Certain schools consistently outperform their rankings, others consistently underperform, but a school might have a banner year or a craptastic year (like when Michigan's career services told everyone to bid Chicago and it turned out to be the wrong move)


I agree. I also tried to account for self selection out of Biglaw, but any such analysis will be flawed.

Add Federal clerkships. Then take a reasonable guess at how many self select into PI, business, academia and credible non-JD required jobs (some are valid jobs) for each school you're considering (e.g. at Y you should definitely include academia and at Georgetown a higher amount of non-JD could be political, etc.)

User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:06 pm

dingbat wrote:
hume85 wrote:
dingbat wrote:
hume85 wrote:
This makes sense. But it really only makes sense for someone with strong regional preferences. With the weakness of the market I am not sure whether most students outside of HYS should be that picky.

If you don't care about region, then look at employment statistics; but look at both 2010 and 2011 (and maybe 2009). Certain schools consistently outperform their rankings, others consistently underperform, but a school might have a banner year or a craptastic year (like when Michigan's career services told everyone to bid Chicago and it turned out to be the wrong move)


I agree. I also tried to account for self selection out of Biglaw, but any such analysis will be flawed.

Add Federal clerkships. Then take a reasonable guess at how many self select into PI, business, academia and credible non-JD required jobs (some are valid jobs) for each school you're considering (e.g. at Y you should definitely include academia and at Georgetown a higher amount of non-JD could be political, etc.)


When I say Biglaw I mean >50 attorneys+fed clerkships. But you're right. My concerns with self selection are: (1) would the people who self selected out have gotten Biglaw and (2) how many of these self selectors that would have gotten Biglaw offers had they pursued Biglaw would have taken away jobs from people that got Biglaw offers in reality?
Last edited by hume85 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
smaug_
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby smaug_ » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:11 pm

hibiki wrote:…because the options you're presented aren't equitable.

dingbat wrote:unless, of course, Duke gives a much better scholarship. But for the sake of argument I'm gonna assume both options cost about the same, because adding a cost variable will make this discussion ridiculous


You're pretty bad at this, but I guess you just wanted to say a truism? It's pretty normal to have unequal scholarships or to miss out on the school that you originally wanted to get into. I wanted Michigan originally, but I lucked into a better situation. (and didn't have Michigan as an option)

Many 0Ls will need to choose between a school that is closer to their desired region and a better offer somewhere else.

Maybe I should add to "I don't get why TLS makes assertions like this when folks can't/don't prove what they're saying." How about "I don't get why people on TLS feel compelled to make assertions when they're clearly missing the point.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:17 pm

Trying to work in a market outside of the region where your school is located, without high grades, is a headache period. Firms are just very accustomed to hiring from a set group of schools (usually in their region) and they don't like going outside of that unless the candidate has stellar credentials. Quite frankly this is true even for people FROM the area where the firm is. I'm not saying that you won't or can't get hired from a firm located out of your school's market. But in this economy it's not a good idea to go into law school planning on that. Firms are just in a mindset right now where they are only trying to hire people who fit the exact mold they are looking for, and who they don't have to go through any extra hurdles/work to hire.

As far as the Penn thing goes, based off of the GPA hiring data flightoftheearls and some other poster were discussing/describing a while back--Penn isn't any different from UVA, Michigan, Duke etc. The firms are hiring from the same general class rank at all of those schools. Which means that Penn probably places more people in biglaw because of market choice/location. I.e. the NYC firms are used to hiring from there, more people from there aim for NYC jobs at Penn, there are more NYC jobs available in general, and even though they aren't gong any deeper into Penn's class they are hiring more from the given GPA cutoff range from Penn than they do at schools outside of where they focus on hiring. The problem with expecting Penn to provide you with this big boost over its peers for going there, is if you end up in that grade range where the firms won't hire you regardless. But if you are willing to do NYC Penn is probably the better bet all things equal.


As a side note I would tell most people to pick Penn over UVA and Michigan because of UVA's stupid way of obtaining a 3.3 mean ( professors can give out literally ANY grade to a student as long as the class mean is 3.3.--meaning there is a lot of variance. You have people getting C's and B-s like mad--although it's balanced by a lot of A range grades.) and Michigan's strangely low curve (which regardless of class rank being the true factor, does turn off some employers when they compare it to schools like NU). Penn and many of the other top 14 have enough sense to not only mandate a 3.3 or whatever specific median/mean but to also designate the exact distribution (which includes NOT allowing grades below a B- and even very few of those).

User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:50 pm

hibiki wrote:
hibiki wrote:…because the options you're presented aren't equitable.

dingbat wrote:unless, of course, Duke gives a much better scholarship. But for the sake of argument I'm gonna assume both options cost about the same, because adding a cost variable will make this discussion ridiculous


You're pretty bad at this, but I guess you just wanted to say a truism? It's pretty normal to have unequal scholarships or to miss out on the school that you originally wanted to get into. I wanted Michigan originally, but I lucked into a better situation. (and didn't have Michigan as an option)

Many 0Ls will need to choose between a school that is closer to their desired region and a better offer somewhere else.

Maybe I should add to "I don't get why TLS makes assertions like this when folks can't/don't prove what they're saying." How about "I don't get why people on TLS feel compelled to make assertions when they're clearly missing the point.


Because the echo chamber gives us all the confidence that we are an authority on the subject when we aren't.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:54 pm

hume85 wrote:
hibiki wrote:
hibiki wrote:…because the options you're presented aren't equitable.

dingbat wrote:unless, of course, Duke gives a much better scholarship. But for the sake of argument I'm gonna assume both options cost about the same, because adding a cost variable will make this discussion ridiculous


You're pretty bad at this, but I guess you just wanted to say a truism? It's pretty normal to have unequal scholarships or to miss out on the school that you originally wanted to get into. I wanted Michigan originally, but I lucked into a better situation. (and didn't have Michigan as an option)

Many 0Ls will need to choose between a school that is closer to their desired region and a better offer somewhere else.

Maybe I should add to "I don't get why TLS makes assertions like this when folks can't/don't prove what they're saying." How about "I don't get why people on TLS feel compelled to make assertions when they're clearly missing the point.


Because the echo chamber gives us all the confidence that we are an authority on the subject when we aren't.

you don't need exposure to an echo chamber to be capable of logical deductive reasoning (especially when whatever data is available backs it up)

User avatar
suralin
better than you
Posts: 15044
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby suralin » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:35 pm

You guys (hibiki, dingbat, and BruceWayne) are rather obviously talking past each other.

hibiki wrote:
dingbat wrote:But if you have a specific location in mind, why create extra work for yourself, why limit your options?


…because the options you're presented aren't equitable.

Moreover, you didn't show that the options are limited. I agree that self selection exists, but the previous assertion was the standard TLS line that it is "easier" to get a job in that market. If all you mean is that the firms come to you, sure, great, that should be obvious.

It seems like you (and people before you) are asserting more. You seem to be claiming that firms would prefer a student from that area over a well-qualified candidate from another T14 outside the area. That seems…odd to me. I was wondering if anyone had some data or even anecdotes about this. I haven't gone through the law hiring/interview process and you haven't either.

So, I'll repeat what I said above, I'd like some data that shows the "regional school is better even in a major market" statement is valid. TLS is full of half-truths and untruths. This line just reminds me of Chicago exceptionalism ("Offices all over the country are more likely to hire Chi grads because Chi is smaller and they want students from a diverse group of schools!") or "Sixigan" or other assertions that have turned out laughably wrong.

TL;DR I don't get why TLS makes assertions like this when folks can't/don't prove what they're saying.


dingbat wrote:Firms have a preference to hire people from a school that's supplied a lot of students to them in the past and has a proven track record.
Beyond that, I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's just creating more work for yourself. If you want to work in a particular market, look for the schools that feed well into that market, because it is the easiest way to get there. Sure, someone from Duke should be able to find a job in California (if they're not too close to the bottom of the class), but it'd require a lot more work than someone at Berkeley.

BruceWayne wrote:Trying to work in a market outside of the region where your school is located, without high grades, is a headache period. Firms are just very accustomed to hiring from a set group of schools (usually in their region) and they don't like going outside of that unless the candidate has stellar credentials. Quite frankly this is true even for people FROM the area where the firm is. I'm not saying that you won't or can't get hired from a firm located out of your school's market. But in this economy it's not a good idea to go into law school planning on that. Firms are just in a mindset right now where they are only trying to hire people who fit the exact mold they are looking for, and who they don't have to go through any extra hurdles/work to hire.

dingbat wrote:you don't need exposure to an echo chamber to be capable of logical deductive reasoning (especially when whatever data is available backs it up)

All hibiki seems to be looking for is data (anecdotal or otherwise) to support the proposition that firms prefer to (and as a matter of fact do) hire students from law schools in their region over similarly ranked students at similar law schools outside of their region. dingbat, you're treating that claim as a given (e.g., "it's just creating more work for yourself"), but hibiki appears to want that justified in the very first place.

As for me, I'm inclined to agree with you, but I'd feel more comfortable placing a higher credence on that proposition being true if there were more supporting it than my mere intuition. In fact, it may not even be possible in practice for there to be good enough data--due to self-sampling and the general lack of hard data--but then it'd be useful to state that such a claim does not actually turn on data but on intuition/whatever-else-you-call-it.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:57 pm

Sometimes hiring committees are very loyal to local schools. Sometimes they get wowed by prestige. It doesn't just vary from firm to firm, it also changes from year to year as the composition of the hiring committee changes. Also, some markets seem even more loyal ("insular") than others. I don't know what data I could give you to prove this is true, I just know it is because I've been following hiring trends long enough to see the patterns emerge.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:59 pm

The big reason to go to the localish t14 is OCI interviewing. A lot of Chicago firms don't all go to each T14. A lot of Califorina firms don't go to New York schools. Sourthern schools don't seem to go very far.

One thing to watch for is over relying on simple %'s. A good part of the reason GULC does kinda shitty is their students focus on DC, a hard market. Northwestern students will do as bad, or worse trying to get DC. So comparing the two by pure NLJ% isn't really that fair. If you got to GULC and aim at NYC, you'd probably do just as well as if you went to Michigan or Duke or Northwestern.

Hierarchy of factors
1) Region you want to work in
2) Cost
3) personal issues.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:10 pm

Desert Fox wrote:One thing to watch for is over relying on simple %'s. A good part of the reason GULC does kinda shitty is their students focus on DC, a hard market. Northwestern students will do as bad, or worse trying to get DC. So comparing the two by pure NLJ% isn't really that fair. If you got to GULC and aim at NYC, you'd probably do just as well as if you went to Michigan or Duke or Northwestern.

Also, people go to GULC because they're from DC. People from every school (foolishly) say things like that they'd "rather not do biglaw at all" than leave DC (or San Francisco or Seattle or Chicago) then try for biglaw at OCI, then scramble for midlaw, then carpet gov't, then strike out.

That person's experience has nothing to do with what your experience will be, so their bad choices counting against their school's stats shouldn't matter to you. That's why I think grade cutoffs at firms are more important than hiring data: that tells you what opportunities students have without the bias of students doing a bad job seizing those opportunities.

jarofsoup
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:41 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby jarofsoup » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:13 pm

My honest opinion is this that outside HYSCC, pick a school in a big city so you can intern during 2L and 3L in case you miss big law.

Many 0Ls here do not emphasize how important this is and how beneficial interning is. So I would pick a school in a big city over Duke or Mich which are in bum f&%k. The great thing about GULC is that during the school year you are the top of the pack for USDOJ, SEC, DOE, Treasury, etc internships in the district.

This being said if had got into Duke or Mich as a 0L I would pick them over GULC. But I didn't and I am at a top 20.

User avatar
suralin
better than you
Posts: 15044
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby suralin » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:24 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One thing to watch for is over relying on simple %'s. A good part of the reason GULC does kinda shitty is their students focus on DC, a hard market. Northwestern students will do as bad, or worse trying to get DC. So comparing the two by pure NLJ% isn't really that fair. If you got to GULC and aim at NYC, you'd probably do just as well as if you went to Michigan or Duke or Northwestern.

Also, people go to GULC because they're from DC. People from every school (foolishly) say things like that they'd "rather not do biglaw at all" than leave DC (or San Francisco or Seattle or Chicago) then try for biglaw at OCI, then scramble for midlaw, then carpet gov't, then strike out.

That person's experience has nothing to do with what your experience will be, so their bad choices counting against their school's stats shouldn't matter to you. That's why I think grade cutoffs at firms are more important than hiring data: that tells you what opportunities students have without the bias of students doing a bad job seizing those opportunities.


I see, that does make a lot of sense. So I guess there's no hard data on what the grade cutoffs in fact are? Although, I think there's a thread that tries to compile anecdotal data points from the OCI threads.

Pizzaburger
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:56 am

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Pizzaburger » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:54 pm

The whole Penn placement thing probably results from the fact that they tend to admit really good looking people and employers like to hire good looking people. It's good for business. win win for everyone.

law2015
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:29 pm

Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby law2015 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:05 pm

jarofsoup wrote:My honest opinion is this that outside HYSCC, pick a school in a big city so you can intern during 2L and 3L in case you miss big law.

Many 0Ls here do not emphasize how important this is and how beneficial interning is. So I would pick a school in a big city over Duke or Mich which are in bum f&%k. The great thing about GULC is that during the school year you are the top of the pack for USDOJ, SEC, DOE, Treasury, etc internships in the district.

This being said if had got into Duke or Mich as a 0L I would pick them over GULC. But I didn't and I am at a top 20.


The whole HYSCC is based on what? Chicago is not any better than NYU, Columbia maybe marginally. Also those places you mentioned are extremely hard to get unless you have great credentials.




Return to “Law School FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests