Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

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moonman157
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby moonman157 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:02 am

SaintsTheMetal wrote:Definitely matters. Slight differences in overall placement all the way down the line.. Each school has slants that it tends to do better.

If you want Cali, Stanford>Berkeley>the rest

For Biglaw in general, Penn could be considered second to none. At the same time, keep in mind that there may be a factor of self selection for various schools, or that some schools are just more geared towards certain things. If you want a prestigious clerkship, Chicago places more into that than almost any other school. Georgetown may have a large amount of people opting to pursue a job on Capital Hill rather than BigLaw. Cornell does well in NYC but won't carry as well out west as Columbia. Northwestern places very well, but this may be due to the fact that non-trads fare better than KJDs in general, so a KJD at NU may in fact be no better off than a KJD at Georgetown. Some schools have a solid lock on a market, whereas some like D, V, and M might struggle to place grads because they aren't near a large market.

So no, ordering may not matter per se, but no two schools are interchangeable imho.


lol wut

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vanwinkle
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:04 am

moonman157 wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:Definitely matters. Slight differences in overall placement all the way down the line.. Each school has slants that it tends to do better.

If you want Cali, Stanford>Berkeley>the rest

For Biglaw in general, Penn could be considered second to none. At the same time, keep in mind that there may be a factor of self selection for various schools, or that some schools are just more geared towards certain things. If you want a prestigious clerkship, Chicago places more into that than almost any other school. Georgetown may have a large amount of people opting to pursue a job on Capital Hill rather than BigLaw. Cornell does well in NYC but won't carry as well out west as Columbia. Northwestern places very well, but this may be due to the fact that non-trads fare better than KJDs in general, so a KJD at NU may in fact be no better off than a KJD at Georgetown. Some schools have a solid lock on a market, whereas some like D, V, and M might struggle to place grads because they aren't near a large market.

So no, ordering may not matter per se, but no two schools are interchangeable imho.

lol wut

Checking for Veyron alt now.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:22 am

SaintsTheMetal wrote:...


you don't know what you're talking about...

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SaintsTheMetal
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:27 am

moonman157 wrote:lol wut


outside of the top3, the data support this. penn and columbia are roughly even, with everyone else trailing due to other factors that may or may not include self selection. what is there to debate?

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moonman157
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby moonman157 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:34 am

SaintsTheMetal wrote:
moonman157 wrote:lol wut


outside of the top3, the data support this. penn and columbia are roughly even, with everyone else trailing due to other factors that may or may not include self selection. what is there to debate?


I'd really like to see the data that shows that Penn could definitely been seen as the best non-HYS school for biglaw

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:38 am

moonman157 wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:
moonman157 wrote:lol wut


outside of the top3, the data support this. penn and columbia are roughly even, with everyone else trailing due to other factors that may or may not include self selection. what is there to debate?


I'd really like to see the data that shows that Penn could definitely been seen as the best non-HYS school for biglaw


http://www.lstscorereports.com/

large firm + federal clerk
columbia 69%
penn 67%
NU 61%
nyu 54%
chicago 54%

this implies that c and p are roughly equivalent on that front.

I thought lstscorereports.com was fairly well known on this website though.. =/
Last edited by SaintsTheMetal on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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moonman157
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby moonman157 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:40 am

SaintsTheMetal wrote:
moonman157 wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:
moonman157 wrote:lol wut


outside of the top3, the data support this. penn and columbia are roughly even, with everyone else trailing due to other factors that may or may not include self selection. what is there to debate?


I'd really like to see the data that shows that Penn could definitely been seen as the best non-HYS school for biglaw


http://www.lstscorereports.com/

large firm + federal clerk
columbia 69%
penn 67%
nyu 54%
chicago 54%

I thought lstscorereports.com was fairly well known on this website though.. =/


Oh I'm well aware of LST. I'm just not convinced that this shows that Penn is second to none for Biglaw

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2014
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby 2014 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:42 am

Penn killed it in the NLJ 250 in 2011 making them look slightly inflated. I think over the last 5 years 6th or 7th is where they belong taking into account some potential self selection at schools that should clearly be ahead (Yale). I could be wrong though but I think those are the stats I've seen pop up. Not going to dig for them from my phone though

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SaintsTheMetal
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:45 am

moonman157 wrote:Oh I'm well aware of LST. I'm just not convinced that this shows that Penn is second to none for Biglaw


placement into NLJ250 for 2010 and 2011: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/tag/nlj-250/


not sure what else you want bro. there may be other schools I would consider roughly equivalent trending back however many years you want to. Maybe NU, chicago, cornell could be included in there. I don't care enough to spend my night digging up older data, but if I still had to decide on my law school I probably would. I made my decision and EDed there because of it

You're entitled your opinion and I'm not going to waste my friday night on the computer to (fail to) change your opinion
Last edited by SaintsTheMetal on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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moonman157
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby moonman157 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:48 am

SaintsTheMetal wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Oh I'm well aware of LST. I'm just not convinced that this shows that Penn is second to none for Biglaw


second source http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 1121004218

not sure what else you want bro. there may be other schools I would consider roughly equivalent trending back however many years you want to. You're entitled your opinion and I'm not going to waste my friday night on the computer to (fail to) change your opinion


Fair enough. For one year, Penn placed the best in Biglaw. That's certainly true. But enough to extrapolate from that one piece of data from one year that Penn is best in this metric? Cornell sent more people into Biglaw firms than Columbia two years back. But hey, enjoy your night

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SaintsTheMetal
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:49 am

moonman157 wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Oh I'm well aware of LST. I'm just not convinced that this shows that Penn is second to none for Biglaw


second source http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 1121004218

not sure what else you want bro. there may be other schools I would consider roughly equivalent trending back however many years you want to. You're entitled your opinion and I'm not going to waste my friday night on the computer to (fail to) change your opinion


Fair enough. For one year, Penn placed the best in Biglaw. That's certainly true. But enough to extrapolate from that one piece of data from one year that Penn is best in this metric? Cornell sent more people into Biglaw firms than Columbia two years back. But hey, enjoy your night


you quote too fast. or i post to fast =/

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rayiner
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby rayiner » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:40 am

If you look at the last 5-6 years of NLJ 250 data instead of just the last 2-3, the whole NMVBDNC tier tends to converge. Columbia, Penn, and Chicago stand out as a cut above.

Re: NU and K-JD's, I think WE explains part of NU's placement, but by far the biggest factor is dominating Chicago. Chicago is a big legal market (third largest after NYC/DC) and UC/NU aren't huge schools. Every LR kid in the county is clamoring to be in DC, and taking jobs from GULC kids. Not so for Chicago.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:51 am

rayiner wrote:If you look at the last 5-6 years of NLJ 250 data instead of just the last 2-3, the whole NMVBDNC tier tends to converge. Columbia, Penn, and Chicago stand out as a cut above.

Re: NU and K-JD's, I think WE explains part of NU's placement, but by far the biggest factor is dominating Chicago. Chicago is a big legal market (third largest after NYC/DC) and UC/NU aren't huge schools. Every LR kid in the county is clamoring to be in DC, and taking jobs from GULC kids. Not so for Chicago.



This. If someone wants an NLJ firm/fed clerk, it would be a poor decision to turn down Penn for any non-hyscc t14 at the same price. Even at the cc level, one could still turn them down for Penn and not be shooting themselves in the foot.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:48 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you look at the last 5-6 years of NLJ 250 data instead of just the last 2-3, the whole NMVBDNC tier tends to converge. Columbia, Penn, and Chicago stand out as a cut above.

Re: NU and K-JD's, I think WE explains part of NU's placement, but by far the biggest factor is dominating Chicago. Chicago is a big legal market (third largest after NYC/DC) and UC/NU aren't huge schools. Every LR kid in the county is clamoring to be in DC, and taking jobs from GULC kids. Not so for Chicago.



This. If someone wants an NLJ firm/fed clerk, it would be a poor decision to turn down Penn for any non-hyscc t14 at the same price. Even at the cc level, one could still turn them down for Penn and not be shooting themselves in the foot.
That is sily. The small bump for Penn is not worth it for a lot of people, including anyone who doesn't prefer to work in NYC or live in Philly.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby sinfiery » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:23 am


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hume85
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:33 am

sinfiery wrote:TYBGoogle + TLS archives.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... pUVE#gid=0


Very well done, sin. The next step is to add federal clerkships.

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IAFG
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:41 am

hume85 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:TYBGoogle + TLS archives.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... pUVE#gid=0


Very well done, sin. The next step is to add federal clerkships.

Didn't Rayiner already do that

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:43 am

IAFG wrote:
hume85 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:TYBGoogle + TLS archives.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... pUVE#gid=0


Very well done, sin. The next step is to add federal clerkships.

Didn't Rayiner already do that


It sounds like it, but he didn't post it ITT.

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sinfiery
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby sinfiery » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:44 am

IAFG wrote:
hume85 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:TYBGoogle + TLS archives.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... pUVE#gid=0


Very well done, sin. The next step is to add federal clerkships.

Didn't Rayiner already do that

I didn't make the doc, just found the link.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=181578

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IAFG
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:48 am

i just meant the bit about incorporating clerkships. tho IIRC he didn't average them over time but just took one year, not really sure

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:50 am

IAFG wrote:i just meant the bit about incorporating clerkships. tho IIRC he didn't average them over time but just took one year, not really sure


A multi-year average of Biglaw+fed clerkships would be useful ITT. I can check his posts. Do you remember when he posted it?

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hume85
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby hume85 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:53 am

IAFG wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
rayiner wrote:If you look at the last 5-6 years of NLJ 250 data instead of just the last 2-3, the whole NMVBDNC tier tends to converge. Columbia, Penn, and Chicago stand out as a cut above.

Re: NU and K-JD's, I think WE explains part of NU's placement, but by far the biggest factor is dominating Chicago. Chicago is a big legal market (third largest after NYC/DC) and UC/NU aren't huge schools. Every LR kid in the county is clamoring to be in DC, and taking jobs from GULC kids. Not so for Chicago.



This. If someone wants an NLJ firm/fed clerk, it would be a poor decision to turn down Penn for any non-hyscc t14 at the same price. Even at the cc level, one could still turn them down for Penn and not be shooting themselves in the foot.
That is sily. The small bump for Penn is not worth it for a lot of people, including anyone who doesn't prefer to work in NYC or live in Philly.


This. I am going to Penn, and I am thrilled. But if I wanted Chicago, there is no way I would take Penn over C or N.

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IAFG
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:59 am

hume85 wrote:
IAFG wrote:i just meant the bit about incorporating clerkships. tho IIRC he didn't average them over time but just took one year, not really sure


A multi-year average of Biglaw+fed clerkships would be useful ITT. I can check his posts. Do you remember when he posted it?

I think I am thinking of this:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723

but I am too lazy to read carefully and make sure I don't mean to be posting this:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180503

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sinfiery
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby sinfiery » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:07 am


The second link is the Biglaw (100+ firm size) and Federal Clerkship employment data equalized based on % class in said fields. Seems to be a 1 year analysis.

Damn Cornell, you're killin it.

I think it's a great place to start but at the same time it makes you realize how fickle a 1 year report can be.


edit:
http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL
also interesting

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby banjo » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:56 am

I think I found what you guys are looking for: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181415

rayiner wrote:For C/O 2008 -2010:

I've clumped these into groups. The Vandy/USC/GW group is a little loose, because Vandy generally outperforms and GW underperforms the group, but the other two are pretty tight. The source spreadsheet is here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B11ijy ... WDNxX2JPQQ

Harvard:
2008 79%
2009 81%
2010 74%

Chicago, Penn:
2008 88%
2009 84%
2010 75%

NYU, Duke, Michigan, Virginia, NU:
2008 79%
2009 76%
2010 63%




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