Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

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scifiguy
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:05 pm

In terms of emnployemnt, does Michigan lag a signifcant enough amount behind other non-GULC T14's too warrant a distinction?

Michigan's biglaw seems noticeably lower than the other non-GULC T14s. It made me wonder about this :

acrossthelake wrote:I mean, I've had lawyers at biglaw firms who either currently are, or were before, tell me straight to my face that ties matter a lot to them, and that they favor local schools. They could be lying, but considering the placement of, say, SLS and Berkeley in NorCal over our (HLS) ability to place there (not that well), I believe it.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:24 pm

IAFG wrote:
Crowing wrote:There are slight differences down the list from 4 to 14 minus GULC but where people want to draw lines is totally arbitrary. We say shit like CCN and MVP but do people really think there is a noticeable gap between say UVA and Duke that is bigger than one between UVA and Penn? Give me a break - everybody has their own opinion in regards to this topic and wherever you decide to split categories somebody is gonna be all up in arms. Maybe the numbers to truly make meaningful distinctions are out there somewhere, but I haven't seen them presented on TLS.

the mini-tiers were never about employment. they were about admissions standards.


Because before ITE nobody cared that much about employment. It was all about dat prestige.

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2014
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby 2014 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:46 pm

scifiguy wrote:In terms of emnployemnt, does Michigan lag a signifcant enough amount behind other non-GULC T14's too warrant a distinction?

Michigan's biglaw seems noticeably lower than the other non-GULC T14s. It made me wonder about this :

acrossthelake wrote:I mean, I've had lawyers at biglaw firms who either currently are, or were before, tell me straight to my face that ties matter a lot to them, and that they favor local schools. They could be lying, but considering the placement of, say, SLS and Berkeley in NorCal over our (HLS) ability to place there (not that well), I believe it.

Michigan's placement isn't pretty, it suffers from a lack of a good backup market and doesn't dominate NYC by any means.

Rayiner had a good post somewhere that basically pointed out that Michigan only clings onto T14 status in large part because of inflated reputation scores from its days in the top 5 that feed themselves but will eventually diminish.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:13 pm

2014 wrote:
scifiguy wrote:In terms of emnployemnt, does Michigan lag a signifcant enough amount behind other non-GULC T14's too warrant a distinction?

Michigan's biglaw seems noticeably lower than the other non-GULC T14s. It made me wonder about this :

acrossthelake wrote:I mean, I've had lawyers at biglaw firms who either currently are, or were before, tell me straight to my face that ties matter a lot to them, and that they favor local schools. They could be lying, but considering the placement of, say, SLS and Berkeley in NorCal over our (HLS) ability to place there (not that well), I believe it.

Michigan's placement isn't pretty, it suffers from a lack of a good backup market and doesn't dominate NYC by any means.

Rayiner had a good post somewhere that basically pointed out that Michigan only clings onto T14 status in large part because of inflated reputation scores from its days in the top 5 that feed themselves but will eventually diminish.

It's definitely odd, because Michigan is ranked 10th in USNWR above Duke, Northwestern, Georgetown, and Cornell.

Also, from the earlier posts in this thread, people argued that the ranking tiers within the T14 were:

TOP: YS>H
MIDDLE: CCN (possibly Penn)
BOTTOM: P>BVMDNGC

Here's Michigan's 2011 biglaw placement in the NLJ 250 from here:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/tag/nlj-250/

Rank | School | NLJ 250 Grads | Total Grads | % of Class

#1 University of Pennsylvania Law School: 156 | 274 | 56.93%

#2 Northwestern University School of Law: 149 | 286 | 52.1%

#3 Columbia Law School: 235 | 455 | 51.65%

#4 Harvard Law School: 285 | 583 | 48.89%

#5 Stanford Law School: 87 | 181* | 48.07%

#6 University of California, Berkeley School of Law (Boalt Hall): 140 | 305 | 45.9%

#7 University of Chicago Law School: 92 | 203 | 45.32%

#8 Duke Law School: 89 | 219* | 40.64%

#9 New York University School of Law: 187 | 466 | 40.13%

#10 University of Virginia School of Law: 150 | 377 | 39.79%

#11 Cornell Law School: 72 | 188* | 38.3%

#12 University of Southern California Gould School of Law: 68 | 207 | 32.85% :?: :?: :?:

#13 University of Michigan Law School: 119 | 378 | 31.48% :shock:

#14 Georgetown University Law Center: 198 | 637 | 31.08%

#15 Yale Law School: 61 | 205 | 29.76%



Just based on (2011) NLJ 250 biglaw placement, Michigan is almost 9% points lower than most other T14 schools other than Georgetown. I read in another post people arguing that Georgetown was the "riskiest/worst" of the T14 in terms of job numbers. But could we place Michigan next to GULC? Would the tiers then be:

TOP: YS>H
MID-1: CCN (P?)
MID-2: P>BVDNC
BOTTOM: MG

Is there something I am missing? Does Michigan, for exmaple, place well in federal clerkships and public interest firms to make up for the lower biglaw placemenet? The lack of a home market theory makes sense, but I think people argued here there wasn't concrete proof that firms discriminated that way with the T14.

And why is USC so good with biglaw placement?

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:21 pm

scifiguy wrote:It's definitely odd, because Michigan is ranked 10th in USNWR above Duke, Northwestern, Georgetown, and Cornell.

golly gee, it's almost like USNWR doesn't even factor biglaw placement into their rankings

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:23 pm

IAFG wrote:
scifiguy wrote:It's definitely odd, because Michigan is ranked 10th in USNWR above Duke, Northwestern, Georgetown, and Cornell.

golly gee, it's almost like USNWR doesn't even factor biglaw placement into their rankings


Do they? I never really knew their methodology. Lemme check.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:27 pm

I wouldn't use one year to say Michigan clings to T-14 status simply because of reputation. 2006-2011 NLJ average:

Columbia.............62.7
Penn..................61
Chicago..............60.7
Northwestern......57.1
NYU..................54.7
Harvard.............54
Cornell..............53.1
UVA.................51.5
Boalt................51.1
Stanford...........51.1
Duke................51.1
Michigan...........48.5
Georgetown.......43.7
Yale.................37.7

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:28 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:I wouldn't use one year to say Michigan clings to T-14 status simply because of reputation. 2006-2011 NLJ average:

Columbia.............62.7
Penn..................61
Chicago..............60.7
Northwestern......57.1
NYU..................54.7
Harvard.............54
Cornell..............53.1
UVA.................51.5
Boalt................51.1
Stanford...........51.1
Duke................51.1
Michigan...........48.5
Georgetown.......43.7
Yale.................37.7

this ordering is worthless without AIII

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:31 pm

IAFG wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I wouldn't use one year to say Michigan clings to T-14 status simply because of reputation. 2006-2011 NLJ average:

Columbia.............62.7
Penn..................61
Chicago..............60.7
Northwestern......57.1
NYU..................54.7
Harvard.............54
Cornell..............53.1
UVA.................51.5
Boalt................51.1
Stanford...........51.1
Duke................51.1
Michigan...........48.5
Georgetown.......43.7
Yale.................37.7

this ordering is worthless without AIII

Stop it. The point is that Michigan is well ahead of any non T-14, whether or not AIII is included. And since AIII is so close for all non-HYS T-14's not including really has no impact on this list except for the big 3.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:33 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Stop it.

okay but...
The point is that Michigan is well ahead of any non T-14, whether or not AIII is included.

you show that by... stopping at T14s?

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:34 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:I wouldn't use one year to say Michigan clings to T-14 status simply because of reputation. 2006-2011 NLJ average:

Columbia.............62.7
Penn..................61
Chicago..............60.7
Northwestern......57.1
NYU..................54.7
Harvard.............54
Cornell..............53.1
UVA.................51.5
Boalt................51.1
Stanford...........51.1
Duke................51.1
Michigan...........48.5
Georgetown.......43.7
Yale.................37.7


Ok, Michigan isn't that far off then.

But GULC really does have some objectively lower numbers. This seems to corroborate what others were saying in another thread about GULC being the "riskiest/worst" T14.
Last edited by scifiguy on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:34 pm

furthermore, as i just got done pointing out in another thread, "T14 status" is not determined by NLJ placement (whether or not it should be). so someone can say, oh, a school only holds onto its T14 status for whatever reason, and you have to look at the methodology and scoring to argue about that.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:39 pm

IAFG wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Stop it.

okay but...
The point is that Michigan is well ahead of any non T-14, whether or not AIII is included.

you show that by... stopping at T14s?

I do for you, because you know enough about this shit to know that those numbers blow away any other school over the same time period. For others who haven't spent years on this site, I'll come up with the numbers for the schools just outside the T-14.

IAFG wrote:furthermore, as i just got done pointing out in another thread, "T14 status" is not determined by NLJ placement (whether or not it should be). so someone can say, oh, a school only holds onto its T14 status for whatever reason, and you have to look at the methodology and scoring to argue about that.

Fair enough, although I think we'd all prefer that prospective applicants use employment information rather than US News' garbage when making decisions. I just happened to come into the thread when posters were using 2011 NLJ numbers alone to rip on Michigan. I love to rip on Michigan as much as anyone, but that's too easy.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:50 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote: I'll come up with the numbers for the schools just outside the T-14.

Part of the problem with this is that older years don't show as many schools. Texas is missing from 2008 and UCLA from 2006. Not counting those years for those schools, the averages are:

Vandy: 38.6
USC: 38.4
UCLA: 35
Texas: 32.4

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:53 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote: I'll come up with the numbers for the schools just outside the T-14.

Part of the problem with this is that older years don't show as many schools. Texas is missing from 2008 and UCLA from 2006. Not counting those years for those schools, the averages are:

Vandy: 38.6
USC: 38.4
UCLA: 35
Texas: 32.4

Last year NLJ did the 350 instead of the 250. I am wondering what that might do for these more regional schools. If they release the jobs list on the 350 model it really might separate the good from the bad in the T1.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Blessedassurance » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:58 pm

scifiguy wrote:TOP: YS>H
MID-1: CCN (P?)
MID-2: P>BVDNC
BOTTOM: MG


the list you showed had h above ys...what then explains the above...the tls echo chamber?

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:00 am

Good stuffs! Thanks guys!

I guess it's really still just GULC that's vastly underperforming the T14 consistently then. Good to know.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:03 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
scifiguy wrote:TOP: YS>H
MID-1: CCN (P?)
MID-2: P>BVDNC
BOTTOM: MG


the list you showed had h above ys...what then explains the above...the tls echo chamber?


?

You mean that 2011 NLJ biglaw placement thing? Yeah, YS get those federal clerkships, so it's not deficiency in those schools. They just choose nto to go biglaw.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:05 am

scifiguy wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
scifiguy wrote:TOP: YS>H
MID-1: CCN (P?)
MID-2: P>BVDNC
BOTTOM: MG


the list you showed had h above ys...what then explains the above...the tls echo chamber?


?

You mean that 2011 NLJ biglaw placement thing? Yeah, YS get those federal clerkships, so it's not deficiency in those schools. They just choose nto to go biglaw.




and h doesn't?

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scifiguy
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:07 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
scifiguy wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
scifiguy wrote:TOP: YS>H
MID-1: CCN (P?)
MID-2: P>BVDNC
BOTTOM: MG

the list you showed had h above ys...what then explains the above...the tls echo chamber?


?
You mean that 2011 NLJ biglaw placement thing? Yeah, YS get those federal clerkships, so it's not deficiency in those schools. They just choose nto to go biglaw.


and h doesn't?


big disclaimer, because I don't know much and am learning. these guys here nkow more than me. But yeah, H isn't on the same level as Y and S. i think they do objectively get less of those federal clerkships, but i could be way wrong. i don't know anything lol.

Tiagooooo???? where are you?? :mrgreen:

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:10 am

ok
Last edited by Blessedassurance on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:12 am

H graduates a shit ton of people. there aren't a lot of prestigious non-biglaw jobs. it would be harder for, say, bigfed jobs to move the meter on their placement.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:12 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
scifiguy wrote: big disclaimer, because I don't know much and am learning. these guys here nkow more than me. But yeah, H isn't on the same level as Y and S. i think they do objectively get less of those federal clerkships, but i could be way wrong. i don't know anything lol.

Tiagooooo???? where are you?? :mrgreen:


why would you make proclamations when you know nothing?


Mmmm, because I remember vaguely this is how people rank schools and explain it? Just ask Tiago...when he's back playing from his Spurs game lol. Ignore me. :lol:

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:12 am

CLerkship placement from 2011:

Y: 33%
S: 24%
H: 16%

But like I said before, we need to use long term averages. As far as I'm concerned they are equal, so I wouldn't agree with this:

scifiguy wrote: But yeah, H isn't on the same level as Y and S

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:14 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:CLerkship placement from 2011:

Y: 33%
S: 24%
H: 16%

But like I said before, we need to use long term averages. As far as I'm concerned they are equal, so I wouldn't agree with this:

scifiguy wrote: But yeah, H isn't on the same level as Y and S



Ok, I'll just be quiet from now on! Thanks for the clarification. Glad I didn't put up wrong info for people!! Thanks!




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