Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

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IAFG
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:04 pm

Borg wrote:So post them if you've got them.

If I had the ability to post really good callback data, I would. Instead, I only have the ability to relate my familiarity with the data generally, having done OCI with my TLS cohort.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby moonman157 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:34 pm

2014 wrote:Except for 2012 (an exception), Penn has lagged 2-6% behind columbia. A better statement would be that Penn>NYU

edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


This is why I feel like P's better-than-NYU NLJ numbers come from 1) NYU's PI self-selection and 2) A greater willingness from Penn students to look outside of NYC for biglaw. I just can't imagine NYU having such a significant advantage with V10 firms but suffer a disadvantage with biglaw hiring overall.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:37 pm

moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:Except for 2012 (an exception), Penn has lagged 2-6% behind columbia. A better statement would be that Penn>NYU

edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


This is why I feel like P's better-than-NYU NLJ numbers come from 1) NYU's PI self-selection and 2) A greater willingness from Penn students to look outside of NYC for biglaw. I just can't imagine NYU having such a significant advantage with V10 firms but suffer a disadvantage with biglaw hiring overall.

I think below median at Penn has a lock on Philly (top of the class ends up in NY, or maybe DC, so local firms need to dig deep to fill their classes)

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:14 pm

dingbat wrote:
moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:Except for 2012 (an exception), Penn has lagged 2-6% behind columbia. A better statement would be that Penn>NYU

edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


This is why I feel like P's better-than-NYU NLJ numbers come from 1) NYU's PI self-selection and 2) A greater willingness from Penn students to look outside of NYC for biglaw. I just can't imagine NYU having such a significant advantage with V10 firms but suffer a disadvantage with biglaw hiring overall.

I think below median at Penn has a lock on Philly (top of the class ends up in NY, or maybe DC, so local firms need to dig deep to fill their classes)

Well lately Philly classes have been pretty itty bitty. Dunno how much the home market is helping Penn right now.

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dingbat
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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:18 pm

IAFG wrote:Well lately Philly classes have been pretty itty bitty. Dunno how much the home market is helping Penn right now.

At least Penn has a home market to fall back on, which makes then just about the only one

(to clarify, CCNBNG's home markets are all major markets, while VMDC have no real home market to speak of)

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby SportsFan » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:24 pm

IAFG wrote:
dingbat wrote:
moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:Except for 2012 (an exception), Penn has lagged 2-6% behind columbia. A better statement would be that Penn>NYU

edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


This is why I feel like P's better-than-NYU NLJ numbers come from 1) NYU's PI self-selection and 2) A greater willingness from Penn students to look outside of NYC for biglaw. I just can't imagine NYU having such a significant advantage with V10 firms but suffer a disadvantage with biglaw hiring overall.

I think below median at Penn has a lock on Philly (top of the class ends up in NY, or maybe DC, so local firms need to dig deep to fill their classes)

Well lately Philly classes have been pretty itty bitty. Dunno how much the home market is helping Penn right now.

My impression from reading on here is basically that Philly firms tend to prefer lower GPA's (with ties, which a surprising number of people here seem to have tbh, whether its going to undergrad here or being from the area or whatever) since those students are less likely to be heading elsewhere. With PA accounting for ~22% of the class (or something like that?), could help explain why placement is better than NYU, since NYU doesn't have 2 main markets like Penn does.
Just a guess/theory though.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:09 pm

Disclaimer: all claims made in this post are anecdotal.

It seems like the Ivies (even Cornell) hold more weight than the other T14s (other than Stanford and Chicago) in mid-law and below, and other field, jobs. I have a few friends who went to Duke, Northwestern, and Virginia on nice schollies. They all get significantly less attention here in Los Angeles from non-BigLaw than my buddies who just got back from Penn, Cornell, and Columbia. I don't know where each one placed in terms of grades, I just know it's been easier to get job interviews and offers (in more fields: non-profit, finance, etc) for folks I know who just finished their JDs at Ivies. The NVDM grads lose out to the Ivy and USC/UCLA grads here in non-BigLaw.

Don't know how much stock to put into that, but yeah.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:55 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:Disclaimer: all claims made in this post are anecdotal.

It seems like the Ivies (even Cornell) hold more weight than the other T14s (other than Stanford and Chicago) in mid-law and below, and other field, jobs. I have a few friends who went to Duke, Northwestern, and Virginia on nice schollies. They all get significantly less attention here in Los Angeles from non-BigLaw than my buddies who just got back from Penn, Cornell, and Columbia. I don't know where each one placed in terms of grades, I just know it's been easier to get job interviews and offers (in more fields: non-profit, finance, etc) for folks I know who just finished their JDs at Ivies. The NVDM grads lose out to the Ivy and USC/UCLA grads here in non-BigLaw.

Don't know how much stock to put into that, but yeah.

Might have something to do with the fact that outside of law students no one gives a fuck about rankings, but everyone's heard of the Ivys so if a firm/office doesn't have a history recruiting at a school, they'll just go with the names they know

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:07 pm

dingbat wrote:
moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:Except for 2012 (an exception), Penn has lagged 2-6% behind columbia. A better statement would be that Penn>NYU

edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


This is why I feel like P's better-than-NYU NLJ numbers come from 1) NYU's PI self-selection and 2) A greater willingness from Penn students to look outside of NYC for biglaw. I just can't imagine NYU having such a significant advantage with V10 firms but suffer a disadvantage with biglaw hiring overall.

I think below median at Penn has a lock on Philly (top of the class ends up in NY, or maybe DC, so local firms need to dig deep to fill their classes)


May also have to do with NYU's stupid big class size. There's a lot more median and above NYU kids to go around than median and above Penn kids.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby rayiner » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:10 am

Penn had more geographic diversity in its class and I imagine fewer people who "can't imagine living anywhere other than NYC." Also, small class helps.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby igo2northwestern » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:32 am

dingbat wrote:edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


V5
Wachtell | NYU: 34 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | NYU: 45, Penn: 25
Sullivan | NYU: 59, Penn: 42
Skadden | NYU: 133, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | NYU: 107, Penn: 27

Penn class size: 243
NYU class size: 452

Just total them up and divide by class size for a rough ratio for comparison (to my knowledge, class sizes have been pretty consistent). NYU has better placement by a reasonable margin. (NYU: 0.836, Penn: 0.679)

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:39 am

igo2northwestern wrote:
dingbat wrote:edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


V5
Wachtell | NYU: 34 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | NYU: 45, Penn: 25
Sullivan | NYU: 59, Penn: 42
Skadden | NYU: 133, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | NYU: 107, Penn: 27

Penn class size: 243
NYU class size: 452

Just total them up and divide by class size for a rough ratio for comparison (to my knowledge, class sizes have been pretty consistent). NYU has better placement by a reasonable margin. (NYU: 83.6%, Penn: 67.9%)

Iono if WLRK should be counted in this metric.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby indigomachine » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:11 am

IAFG wrote:
igo2northwestern wrote:
dingbat wrote:edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


V5
Wachtell | NYU: 34 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | NYU: 45, Penn: 25
Sullivan | NYU: 59, Penn: 42
Skadden | NYU: 133, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | NYU: 107, Penn: 27

Penn class size: 243
NYU class size: 452

Just total them up and divide by class size for a rough ratio for comparison (to my knowledge, class sizes have been pretty consistent). NYU has better placement by a reasonable margin. (NYU: 83.6%, Penn: 67.9%)

Iono if WLRK should be counted in this metric.


Penn is welcome to start it's own V5 firm whenever it's ready.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby rayiner » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:40 am

igo2northwestern wrote:
dingbat wrote:edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


V5
Wachtell | NYU: 34 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | NYU: 45, Penn: 25
Sullivan | NYU: 59, Penn: 42
Skadden | NYU: 133, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | NYU: 107, Penn: 27

Penn class size: 243
NYU class size: 452

Just total them up and divide by class size for a rough ratio for comparison (to my knowledge, class sizes have been pretty consistent). NYU has better placement by a reasonable margin. (NYU: 0.836, Penn: 0.679)


That margin is basically meaningless. NYU is full of people from NYC who want to stay in NYC. It's a uniquely NYC-focused student body. Penn has a lot more geographic diversity, and unsurprisingly fewer people pursue V10 NYC firms.

I think 0L's overestimate the degree to which people will go to NYC just to get into a V10 firm versus a V25 or V50. It's very common at NU for people to turn down NYC V10 offers for Sidley/Kirkland in Chicago. For people with good grades, the NYC V10 are almost like a safety--they make so many offers you can count on getting one without the randomness that accompanies pursuing D.C. or Chicago firms with smaller class sizes.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby suralin » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:38 am

rayiner wrote:
igo2northwestern wrote:
dingbat wrote:edit: as has been said before, while I don't have the numbers handy, the V10 recruit predominantly at HCCN, with barely a P in there. (make of it what you will that NYU gets the better firms, but penn gets more biglaw - V10)


V5
Wachtell | NYU: 34 attnys, Penn: 18 attnys
Cravath | NYU: 45, Penn: 25
Sullivan | NYU: 59, Penn: 42
Skadden | NYU: 133, Penn: 53
Davis Polk | NYU: 107, Penn: 27

Penn class size: 243
NYU class size: 452

Just total them up and divide by class size for a rough ratio for comparison (to my knowledge, class sizes have been pretty consistent). NYU has better placement by a reasonable margin. (NYU: 0.836, Penn: 0.679)


That margin is basically meaningless. NYU is full of people from NYC who want to stay in NYC. It's a uniquely NYC-focused student body. Penn has a lot more geographic diversity, and unsurprisingly fewer people pursue V10 NYC firms.

I think 0L's overestimate the degree to which people will go to NYC just to get into a V10 firm versus a V25 or V50. It's very common at NU for people to turn down NYC V10 offers for Sidley/Kirkland in Chicago. For people with good grades, the NYC V10 are almost like a safety--they make so many offers you can count on getting one without the randomness that accompanies pursuing D.C. or Chicago firms with smaller class sizes.


Makes sense. I just wish there were (publicly available) data that account for self-selection and give a true measure of a school's capability to have their grads hired in whichever market.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:40 am

Suralin wrote:I just wish there were (publicly available) data that account for self-selection and give a true measure of a school's capability to have their grads hired in whichever market.
It's called Harvard (while Yale is a better law school, I believe Harvard would have an easier time placing a student anywhere s/he wants)

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby suralin » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:09 am

dingbat wrote:
Suralin wrote:I just wish there were (publicly available) data that account for self-selection and give a true measure of a school's capability to have their grads hired in whichever market.
It's called Harvard (while Yale is a better law school, I believe Harvard would have an easier time placing a student anywhere s/he wants)


Huh? I agree, but did you misread my post? I wasn't talking about schools' placement abilities per se, just reliable data that could show such abilities.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby dingbat » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:18 am

Suralin wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Suralin wrote:I just wish there were (publicly available) data that account for self-selection and give a true measure of a school's capability to have their grads hired in whichever market.
It's called Harvard (while Yale is a better law school, I believe Harvard would have an easier time placing a student anywhere s/he wants)


Eh? Did you misread my post? I wasn't talking about schools' placement abilities per se, just reliable data that could show such abilities.

I didn't misread, but the only school that truly places their grads anywhere is Harvard. Outside of the T18, placement outside of the home region is abysmal. Within the T18, if you have ties, it's somewhat easier, but it's harder than the local T18 schools. While a good reason Berkeley barely places outside of CA and Columbia places predominantly in NY is self selection, schools tend to feed into particular markets, and to break into a different market puts you at a disadvantage. There is no school that can have their grads hired in whichever market over the local T18, and smaller markets are much more parochial and suspicious of grads from those big schools. National reach is a flame. (yes, I'm oversimplifying; yes, a top student at columbia can crack into any market; that's not the same as saying they can get their grads hired in whichever market)

*note: I picked T18 because I wanted to include Vanderbilt. But it's really just an arbitrary selection.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby bowser » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:26 am

Suralin wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Suralin wrote:I just wish there were (publicly available) data that account for self-selection and give a true measure of a school's capability to have their grads hired in whichever market.
It's called Harvard (while Yale is a better law school, I believe Harvard would have an easier time placing a student anywhere s/he wants)


Huh? I agree, but did you misread my post? I wasn't talking about schools' placement abilities per se, just reliable data that could show such abilities.


Probably the schools don't feel like it's in their own self-interest to make that data available. It'd be pretty sweet if schools aggregated OCI/geographic data and made it available; it defeats the primary psychological incentive which causes people to want to go to elite law schools in the first place (that it's a guarantee of stable, well-paid employment).

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby suralin » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:38 am

dingbat wrote:
Suralin wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Suralin wrote:I just wish there were (publicly available) data that account for self-selection and give a true measure of a school's capability to have their grads hired in whichever market.
It's called Harvard (while Yale is a better law school, I believe Harvard would have an easier time placing a student anywhere s/he wants)


Eh? Did you misread my post? I wasn't talking about schools' placement abilities per se, just reliable data that could show such abilities.

I didn't misread, but the only school that truly places their grads anywhere is Harvard. Outside of the T18, placement outside of the home region is abysmal. Within the T18, if you have ties, it's somewhat easier, but it's harder than the local T18 schools. While a good reason Berkeley barely places outside of CA and Columbia places predominantly in NY is self selection, schools tend to feed into particular markets, and to break into a different market puts you at a disadvantage. There is no school that can have their grads hired in whichever market over the local T18, and smaller markets are much more parochial and suspicious of grads from those big schools. National reach is a flame. (yes, I'm oversimplifying; yes, a top student at columbia can crack into any market; that's not the same as saying they can get their grads hired in whichever market)

*note: I picked T18 because I wanted to include Vanderbilt. But it's really just an arbitrary selection.


Ah I see what you're saying. What I was trying to refer to, however, was more granular data, not data that shows which school can place in any market; that is, essentially just the lowest class rank for a particular school that the average firm in a particular market will hire at--OCI/callback data formalized.

Good points though. What about markets that don't necessarily have a local T18, like Boston (excluding H)? Would, say, Penn have a geographic advantage in Boston over UVA or Michigan? I'm guessing all three would have an advantage over BC/BU.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby suralin » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:42 am

bowser wrote:
Suralin wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Suralin wrote:I just wish there were (publicly available) data that account for self-selection and give a true measure of a school's capability to have their grads hired in whichever market.
It's called Harvard (while Yale is a better law school, I believe Harvard would have an easier time placing a student anywhere s/he wants)


Huh? I agree, but did you misread my post? I wasn't talking about schools' placement abilities per se, just reliable data that could show such abilities.


Probably the schools don't feel like it's in their own self-interest to make that data available. It'd be pretty sweet if schools aggregated OCI/geographic data and made it available; it defeats the primary psychological incentive which causes people to want to go to elite law schools in the first place (that it's a guarantee of stable, well-paid employment).


Yeah, true. Of course that assumes most people wanting to go to law school are rational actors who would be dissuaded by OCI data (and OCI would have to be explained first).

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby scifiguy » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:10 am

Pizzaburger wrote:The whole Penn placement thing probably results from the fact that they tend to admit really good looking people and employers like to hire good looking people. It's good for business. win win for everyone.


Is this serious?

I do have a lot of acne. :cry:

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby Crowing » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:41 pm

There are slight differences down the list from 4 to 14 minus GULC but where people want to draw lines is totally arbitrary. We say shit like CCN and MVP but do people really think there is a noticeable gap between say UVA and Duke that is bigger than one between UVA and Penn? Give me a break - everybody has their own opinion in regards to this topic and wherever you decide to split categories somebody is gonna be all up in arms. Maybe the numbers to truly make meaningful distinctions are out there somewhere, but I haven't seen them presented on TLS.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby IAFG » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:58 pm

Crowing wrote:There are slight differences down the list from 4 to 14 minus GULC but where people want to draw lines is totally arbitrary. We say shit like CCN and MVP but do people really think there is a noticeable gap between say UVA and Duke that is bigger than one between UVA and Penn? Give me a break - everybody has their own opinion in regards to this topic and wherever you decide to split categories somebody is gonna be all up in arms. Maybe the numbers to truly make meaningful distinctions are out there somewhere, but I haven't seen them presented on TLS.

the mini-tiers were never about employment. they were about admissions standards.

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Re: Outside HYS, Does T14 School Ordering Matter?

Postby vzapana » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:05 pm

scifiguy wrote:
Pizzaburger wrote:The whole Penn placement thing probably results from the fact that they tend to admit really good looking people and employers like to hire good looking people. It's good for business. win win for everyone.


Is this serious?

I do have a lot of acne. :cry:


hope you didn't send a photo with your app to penn law..




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