Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

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scifiguy
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Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby scifiguy » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:02 pm

I'm curious if there is any data available of the personal life outcomes and career trajectories of T-14 grads who missed biglaw? By all accounts, it seems that even in the T-14 that a signficant chunk of the students miss out on biglaw hiring.

Given:

[the typically high debt of law school] + [not many high-paying employment options outside of biglaw]

I'm just curious about what eventually happens to this segment of the law grad population. I'm asking specifically about the T-14, because that's where the chances are highest for getting a biglaw position to begin with. But, I'm aware that most law graduates don't ever work in biglaw at all.

Do the T-14 law grads unable to get into biglaw do better than non-T14 law graduates on average?

Also, what about the personal side of things. This is somehting I'm concerned about. I wonder how I'd handle a potential situation of having ....let's say 120K+ in debt and either no job or a job outside of biglaw. Is it very difficult to make ends meet? This is genuinely the most scary part of the law school equation to me.

09042014
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:14 pm

In the short term a lot of unemployed for a pretty damn long time. Since during the boom times this didn't happen very often, you aren't going to find a ton of stories for long term prospects.

I'd imagine it's not significantly better than T1 grads who missed big law.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby dextermorgan » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:21 pm

Anecdotally I know a guy that went to Duke, got laid off in his first year (2009) and now has a solo general practice. He is doing okay, but he is also an engineer on the side so he has a backup.

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scifiguy
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby scifiguy » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:22 pm

Desert Fox wrote:In the short term a lot of unemployed for a pretty damn long time. Since during the boom times this didn't happen very often, you aren't going to find a ton of stories for long term prospects.

I'd imagine it's not significantly better than T1 grads who missed big law.



I guess I wasn't thinking that lowre ranked law school students were shooting for biglaw to begin with. So I didn't include them in my original questin.

The other thing is that the T-14 seem more expensive on average.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:36 pm

scifiguy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:In the short term a lot of unemployed for a pretty damn long time. Since during the boom times this didn't happen very often, you aren't going to find a ton of stories for long term prospects.

I'd imagine it's not significantly better than T1 grads who missed big law.



I guess I wasn't thinking that lowre ranked law school students were shooting for biglaw to begin with. So I didn't include them in my original questin.

The other thing is that the T-14 seem more expensive on average.
If you just look at tuition, that's true, but the actual cost of law school depends much more on cost of living (NYC vs. Boise, for example) than the quality of the school. Of the 10 most expensive schools overall, only one is even a decent school, let alone T14 (Northwestern. :? ) The next highest-ranked school in the top 10 most expensive is American. (I swear there was a list for this, but I cannot for the life of me find it. You'll have to take my word for it.)

If you factor in scholarships and such, a better measure might be average debt after graduation. The list is mostly crappy schools. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Oban
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby Oban » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:39 pm

I saw a study a while back that said grades are the best prediction of success (as in getting a good jerb) rather than school. Thus kids with poor grades a T-14 who miss biglaw have similar prospects to kids at most other schools. The name on your resume may get more looks, but just because you went to Duke or NYU, doesn't mean your 2.8 GPA doesn't smell like shit. So non big law t-14 probable don't have fun, it's just slightly less miserable than lower ranked graduates.

I'm sure median and above median T-14ers who miss biglaw don't have it too bad, though not great either.

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scifiguy
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:01 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
scifiguy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:In the short term a lot of unemployed for a pretty damn long time. Since during the boom times this didn't happen very often, you aren't going to find a ton of stories for long term prospects.

I'd imagine it's not significantly better than T1 grads who missed big law.



I guess I wasn't thinking that lowre ranked law school students were shooting for biglaw to begin with. So I didn't include them in my original questin.

The other thing is that the T-14 seem more expensive on average.
If you just look at tuition, that's true, but the actual cost of law school depends much more on cost of living (NYC vs. Boise, for example) than the quality of the school. Of the 10 most expensive schools overall, only one is even a decent school, let alone T14 (Northwestern. :? ) The next highest-ranked school in the top 10 most expensive is American. (I swear there was a list for this, but I cannot for the life of me find it. You'll have to take my word for it.)

If you factor in scholarships and such, a better measure might be average debt after graduation. The list is mostly crappy schools. http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings



Right. I was just thinking in terms of tuition, but you're correct that those other costs may make a non-T14 more expensive overall. I've actually never heard of Barry University, by the way. :?:

Still, I was under the impression that non-T14ers - the ones far removed, so not like T15, T16... - weren't really shooting for biglaw, since it's so hard to get the further away from the T14 you are. So I was thinking maybe there wouldn't be as big of a letdown?

I just wonder how people emotionally & financially handle missing biglaw in the T14 if that's what they were shootnig for? How much wuold a person's life change in that circumstance?

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scifiguy
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:08 am

.

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dowu
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby dowu » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:12 am

scifiguy wrote:.

Nice edit. Yes and no. Yes, a 2.7 at Barry would look a LOT worse than a 2.7 at Penn.

The thing is, is that after you (if you) secure a decent job and build your resume, employers start to care less and less about your GPA, and more about your experience. GPA is basically the only thing employers have to go off of when you're fresh meat.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby somewhatwayward » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:30 am

Oban wrote:I saw a study a while back that said grades are the best prediction of success (as in getting a good jerb) rather than school. Thus kids with poor grades a T-14 who miss biglaw have similar prospects to kids at most other schools. The name on your resume may get more looks, but just because you went to Duke or NYU, doesn't mean your 2.8 GPA doesn't smell like shit. So non big law t-14 probable don't have fun, it's just slightly less miserable than lower ranked graduates.

I'm sure median and above median T-14ers who miss biglaw don't have it too bad, though not great either.


You have to try extra super hard to graduate from NYU or Duke or any other T14 with below a 3.0. After 1L, *maybe* 5-10% of the class is below a 3.0, but when you add two years of choosing your classes, easier curves, people trying less hard, clinics, LLMs in your classes, independent research, etc etc, I'd bet only a handful of people are still below a 3.0. I'd be shocked if anyone had a 2.8.

Anyway I get what you are saying because no matter what the absolute numbers are, some people are still in the bottom of the class. It seems, however, that 3.0 is a cutoff a lot of employers have in their minds as something they absolutely won't go below, so the schools are helping people out from that perspective. As to how an NYU 3.1 looks compared to a Fordham 3.4 or a Brooklyn 3.6, I think it will depend on the people doing the hiring.

Don't get me wrong. Missing big law and paying anywhere near sticker in the T14 is a scary place to be although most have decent loan repayment options. Whoever first said that we don't have much data on it is correct. It is only fairly recently that these schools have started to struggle relative to the past when everyone with a pulse got a big law job. We don't really know yet whether people who missed big law, clerkship, or desirable PI or gov positions will be helped down the road by having a prestigious school on their resume.

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Re: Any Data on the Lives of T-14 Grads Who Missed Biglaw?

Postby mr.hands » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:In the short term a lot of unemployed for a pretty damn long time. Since during the boom times this didn't happen very often, you aren't going to find a ton of stories for long term prospects.

I'd imagine it's not significantly better than T1 grads who missed big law.


While there are plenty of unemployed and underemployed T14 grads, i think this is a HUGE over-generalization. T14 grads who don't go into biglaw get clerkships in large numbers (7-12%) and probably have an easier time getting public interest jobs.

If you don't get NLJ250 at T14, you aren't in the same boat as regular T1 grads....




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