What fields of law typically have less work hours?

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timbs4339
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:50 pm

typ3 wrote:
TheGreatFish wrote:If you're looking for fewer hours, you'll want to look at government jobs. Most of them are limited to 40hr work weeks, and because there's no billable hours, it's a far more relaxed 40hrs.

Most government jobs will cover the same types of law that private firms handle. Government entities get sued for personal injury, contract issues, etc. There are a few areas that are more suited to government roles though, like criminal law or sometimes environmental law, depending on where you're practicing.



Why work 40hrs week making 50k a year when you can just market the shit out of your little law firm and out maneuver the larger more established firms and essentially work 30hrs a week and make double that.

Sure, the legal market is crowded, but so is almost every industry. If you want to make money and make something of yourself get in the water and try to swim. Most law firms are full of old white guys who don't like to put themselves out there and can't market themselves out of a wet paper bag. Get out there and hustle and push them into retirement.


This is some of the dumbest TLS I've ever read. Most plaintiffs lawyers are not only good trial lawyers, they are shrewd marketers and well-connected in their region and practice area. Also LOL at getting a small business loan for a decent marketing campaign with 150K in debt and no experience. What law school do you work for?

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typ3
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby typ3 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:54 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
typ3 wrote:
TheGreatFish wrote:If you're looking for fewer hours, you'll want to look at government jobs. Most of them are limited to 40hr work weeks, and because there's no billable hours, it's a far more relaxed 40hrs.

Most government jobs will cover the same types of law that private firms handle. Government entities get sued for personal injury, contract issues, etc. There are a few areas that are more suited to government roles though, like criminal law or sometimes environmental law, depending on where you're practicing.



Why work 40hrs week making 50k a year when you can just market the shit out of your little law firm and out maneuver the larger more established firms and essentially work 30hrs a week and make double that.

Sure, the legal market is crowded, but so is almost every industry. If you want to make money and make something of yourself get in the water and try to swim. Most law firms are full of old white guys who don't like to put themselves out there and can't market themselves out of a wet paper bag. Get out there and hustle and push them into retirement.


This is some of the dumbest TLS I've ever read. Most plaintiffs lawyers are not only good trial lawyers, they are shrewd marketers and well-connected in their region and practice area. Also LOL at getting a small business loan for a decent marketing campaign with 150K in debt and no experience. What law school do you work for?



What makes you think I have any debt?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:56 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
typ3 wrote:
TheGreatFish wrote:If you're looking for fewer hours, you'll want to look at government jobs. Most of them are limited to 40hr work weeks, and because there's no billable hours, it's a far more relaxed 40hrs.

Most government jobs will cover the same types of law that private firms handle. Government entities get sued for personal injury, contract issues, etc. There are a few areas that are more suited to government roles though, like criminal law or sometimes environmental law, depending on where you're practicing.



Why work 40hrs week making 50k a year when you can just market the shit out of your little law firm and out maneuver the larger more established firms and essentially work 30hrs a week and make double that.

Sure, the legal market is crowded, but so is almost every industry. If you want to make money and make something of yourself get in the water and try to swim. Most law firms are full of old white guys who don't like to put themselves out there and can't market themselves out of a wet paper bag. Get out there and hustle and push them into retirement.


This is some of the dumbest TLS I've ever read. Most plaintiffs lawyers are not only good trial lawyers, they are shrewd marketers and well-connected in their region and practice area. Also LOL at getting a small business loan for a decent marketing campaign with 150K in debt and no experience. What law school do you work for?

He told people to hustle. You can't buy that kind of advice.

timbs4339
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:58 pm

typ3 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
typ3 wrote:
TheGreatFish wrote:If you're looking for fewer hours, you'll want to look at government jobs. Most of them are limited to 40hr work weeks, and because there's no billable hours, it's a far more relaxed 40hrs.

Most government jobs will cover the same types of law that private firms handle. Government entities get sued for personal injury, contract issues, etc. There are a few areas that are more suited to government roles though, like criminal law or sometimes environmental law, depending on where you're practicing.



Why work 40hrs week making 50k a year when you can just market the shit out of your little law firm and out maneuver the larger more established firms and essentially work 30hrs a week and make double that.

Sure, the legal market is crowded, but so is almost every industry. If you want to make money and make something of yourself get in the water and try to swim. Most law firms are full of old white guys who don't like to put themselves out there and can't market themselves out of a wet paper bag. Get out there and hustle and push them into retirement.


This is some of the dumbest TLS I've ever read. Most plaintiffs lawyers are not only good trial lawyers, they are shrewd marketers and well-connected in their region and practice area. Also LOL at getting a small business loan for a decent marketing campaign with 150K in debt and no experience. What law school do you work for?



What makes you think I have any debt?


On second thought you don't, since I'd say most law school admins aren't debt slaves. Unless you were actually serious about thinking your competition for the 100K+ cases is going to be old white guys who can't market themselves. How many union shop stewards do you regularly go out to dinner with?

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typ3
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby typ3 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:35 am

timbs4339 wrote:On second thought you don't, since I'd say most law school admins aren't debt slaves. Unless you were actually serious about thinking your competition for the 100K+ cases is going to be old white guys who can't market themselves. How many union shop stewards do you regularly go out to dinner with?


...I turned down Columbia to attend a lower ranked regional public school school on scholarship debt free and attended a low rank public university on scholarship for UG debt free since my career ambitions have always been to go into small firm plaintiff personal injury shitlaw since the attorneys who make real money do that.. and if Gerry Spence employs a Thomas Cooley law graduate then there isn't any sense in chasing after prestige.

You don't need to talk to union shop stewards. Here's how it works as far as I know coming from my multi-generational shitlaw family that per attorney makes upper 6 to 7 figures a year in a rural area population of 160k

Talk to every person you see everywhere you go. Ask the people about themselves, from the cashiers, to the clerks etc. Become friends with everyone you meet. Ask them to grab a burger, cup of coffee, lunch, or whatever. Get said coffee. Meet their friends, do the same. Get some business cards. Tell them you're a lawyer. Take in every type of work at first to establish a referral network and market. Focus on marketing, not advertising. Word of mouth >> Billboard. Once people have had an attorney for any sort of legal issue once, they will continue to visit them.

When a client hires you send them a letter with a brochure and business card. After you've resolved their legal problem send them a thank you letter with another business card and cross sell your other services. Focus on customer service.

If you can't find work out of the gate, open your local phone book find a bunch of the immigrant churches. Call them and make friends with the pastor. Attend a few services. It'll be awkward as hell at first but try to make friends with people (this is how you network). Normally if you get into an immigrant community in a city the immigrant community will go to you for all of their legal services since you will be the person that Ukranians / Somolians / Guatemalans etc. can trust and people talk among themselves in communities. Also these people tend to be working in the blue-collar jobs (meat packing, heavy labor, etc.) and thus are more likely to get injured, need to file bankruptcy, etc. Once you have established yourself in a few churches, start going to other ones. Growing up (I'm the son of a 3rd generation shit-law attorney myself) my father would drag me to 3 or 4 Sunday services at churches around town. This is the fastest way to network and hustle with blue-collar, wage earning people. Generally once you have handled a few cases for people in a church at a part of town you can get the rest of the community to come. Like I said, word of mouth marketing from people >> advertising.

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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby Broseidon » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:54 am

The part about immigrant churches is actually quite credited. Yes, many won't be able to afford high fees, but what he said about everybody flocking to you after you help one is true. Anecdote is anecdotal, but a guy my brother went to HS with helped an indian family with a car accident. Now, dude has essentially become the general counsel for the entire Indian-american sect of that community. He has had over 200 clients fall into his lap from that one case (PI, wills, real estate, etc).

timbs4339
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:05 am

typ3 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:On second thought you don't, since I'd say most law school admins aren't debt slaves. Unless you were actually serious about thinking your competition for the 100K+ cases is going to be old white guys who can't market themselves. How many union shop stewards do you regularly go out to dinner with?


...I turned down Columbia to attend a lower ranked regional public school school on scholarship debt free and attended a low rank public university on scholarship for UG debt free since my career ambitions have always been to go into small firm plaintiff personal injury shitlaw since the attorneys who make real money do that.. and if Gerry Spence employs a Thomas Cooley law graduate then there isn't any sense in chasing after prestige.

You don't need to talk to union shop stewards. Here's how it works as far as I know coming from my multi-generational shitlaw family that per attorney makes upper 6 to 7 figures a year in a rural area population of 160k

Talk to every person you see everywhere you go. Ask the people about themselves, from the cashiers, to the clerks etc. Become friends with everyone you meet. Ask them to grab a burger, cup of coffee, lunch, or whatever. Get said coffee. Meet their friends, do the same. Get some business cards. Tell them you're a lawyer. Take in every type of work at first to establish a referral network and market. Focus on marketing, not advertising. Word of mouth >> Billboard. Once people have had an attorney for any sort of legal issue once, they will continue to visit them.

When a client hires you send them a letter with a brochure and business card. After you've resolved their legal problem send them a thank you letter with another business card and cross sell your other services. Focus on customer service.

If you can't find work out of the gate, open your local phone book find a bunch of the immigrant churches. Call them and make friends with the pastor. Attend a few services. It'll be awkward as hell at first but try to make friends with people (this is how you network). Normally if you get into an immigrant community in a city the immigrant community will go to you for all of their legal services since you will be the person that Ukranians / Somolians / Guatemalans etc. can trust and people talk among themselves in communities. Also these people tend to be working in the blue-collar jobs (meat packing, heavy labor, etc.) and thus are more likely to get injured, need to file bankruptcy, etc. Once you have established yourself in a few churches, start going to other ones. Growing up (I'm the son of a 3rd generation shit-law attorney myself) my father would drag me to 3 or 4 Sunday services at churches around town. This is the fastest way to network and hustle with blue-collar, wage earning people. Generally once you have handled a few cases for people in a church at a part of town you can get the rest of the community to come. Like I said, word of mouth marketing from people >> advertising.


First, you describe the competition as a bunch of old white guys who are lazy and can't market themselves. Then you go on a lengthy screed about bunch of experienced attorneys who hustle, have roots in the community, and have done shit-law for generations. Newsflash, Luke: YOUR FATHER IS THE COMPETITION. In any metro area or region there are going to be five or six of these well-known local guys and they are getting all the decent cases. Not some kid from Long Island who went to Cardozo and wants to be a shitlaw superstar in Ohio.

The fact you don't have debt and have built-in family connections makes you supremely unqualified to be lecturing most law students on running a models and bottles shitlaw practice. Most law students don't have daddy to hand them clients, take them around and introduce them to people, or feed them 50K for a decent ad budget.

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typ3
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby typ3 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:24 am

timbs4339 wrote:
typ3 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:On second thought you don't, since I'd say most law school admins aren't debt slaves. Unless you were actually serious about thinking your competition for the 100K+ cases is going to be old white guys who can't market themselves. How many union shop stewards do you regularly go out to dinner with?


...I turned down Columbia to attend a lower ranked regional public school school on scholarship debt free and attended a low rank public university on scholarship for UG debt free since my career ambitions have always been to go into small firm plaintiff personal injury shitlaw since the attorneys who make real money do that.. and if Gerry Spence employs a Thomas Cooley law graduate then there isn't any sense in chasing after prestige.

You don't need to talk to union shop stewards. Here's how it works as far as I know coming from my multi-generational shitlaw family that per attorney makes upper 6 to 7 figures a year in a rural area population of 160k

Talk to every person you see everywhere you go. Ask the people about themselves, from the cashiers, to the clerks etc. Become friends with everyone you meet. Ask them to grab a burger, cup of coffee, lunch, or whatever. Get said coffee. Meet their friends, do the same. Get some business cards. Tell them you're a lawyer. Take in every type of work at first to establish a referral network and market. Focus on marketing, not advertising. Word of mouth >> Billboard. Once people have had an attorney for any sort of legal issue once, they will continue to visit them.

When a client hires you send them a letter with a brochure and business card. After you've resolved their legal problem send them a thank you letter with another business card and cross sell your other services. Focus on customer service.

If you can't find work out of the gate, open your local phone book find a bunch of the immigrant churches. Call them and make friends with the pastor. Attend a few services. It'll be awkward as hell at first but try to make friends with people (this is how you network). Normally if you get into an immigrant community in a city the immigrant community will go to you for all of their legal services since you will be the person that Ukranians / Somolians / Guatemalans etc. can trust and people talk among themselves in communities. Also these people tend to be working in the blue-collar jobs (meat packing, heavy labor, etc.) and thus are more likely to get injured, need to file bankruptcy, etc. Once you have established yourself in a few churches, start going to other ones. Growing up (I'm the son of a 3rd generation shit-law attorney myself) my father would drag me to 3 or 4 Sunday services at churches around town. This is the fastest way to network and hustle with blue-collar, wage earning people. Generally once you have handled a few cases for people in a church at a part of town you can get the rest of the community to come. Like I said, word of mouth marketing from people >> advertising.


First, you describe the competition as a bunch of old white guys who are lazy and can't market themselves. Then you go on a lengthy screed about bunch of experienced attorneys who hustle, have roots in the community, and have done shit-law for generations. Newsflash, Luke: YOUR FATHER IS THE COMPETITION. In any metro area or region there are going to be five or six of these well-known local guys and they are getting all the decent cases. Not some kid from Long Island who went to Cardozo and wants to be a shitlaw superstar in Ohio.

The fact you don't have debt and have built-in family connections makes you supremely unqualified to be lecturing most law students on running a models and bottles shitlaw practice. Most law students don't have daddy to hand them clients, take them around and introduce them to people, or feed them 50K for a decent ad budget.


See straw man fallacy. Check the poster above you crediting what I said as being solid advice. I won't have debt because I based every higher educational decision like a financial one and went to the highest ranked places I could that were still free with scholarships and either worked to pay for my room and board or just didn't go out. I gave up Ivy LS + UG debt for regional landgrant public institutions at no debt.

Actually, I would think that I am supremely qualified to lecture law students on how to run a shit-law model considering I've been raised around a variety of different successful shit law practices and run the marketing / advertising for quite a few regional attorneys. Not to mention, my decision to forego prestige and focus my entire educational career on the bottom line makes me more qualified than a lot of TLS posters who are entirely focused on HYS and becoming a corporate drone for 7-8 years before they laid off. Cutting to the chase, a lot of commodity workers can't bring in work. How many 35+ year old attorneys know how to run internet advertising and marketing campaigns or know how to run a law practice on cloud SaaS software? Sure my father is the competition, but I run the advertising, back office staff, and intake and he is nowhere near capable of doing any of the above if they involve a device that uses electricity. My budget is no where near 50k and the large majority of clients are gotten through hustling. How many biglaw attorneys or attorneys in general have the audacity or the balls to show up at a new church where they know no one and manage to muster and make conversation with strangers?

The expectation when I graduate is to get my own clients.

If I don't get my own clients I don't eat or I get paid the amount legal assistants and interns make which comes out to 13.50-17.00 an hour depending on employment experience. I'm a rookie so I start at 13.50. That has always been the expectation in my family. Unlike defense firms and biglaw it's sink or swim in shitlaw. I'm guessing unlike a lot of posters on here I've actually handled shitlaw cases and clients since I've been 14. I've probably been to more 341 meetings that most lawyers go to in their lifetime. I've drafted well over a hundred personal injury demands. I've handled custody disputes, pissed off clients, nasty divorce litigation, birth mothers, and sat for countless hours trying to help immigrants figure out how to take debt counseling courses online so I can file their bankruptcy petition with the court. I'm sure I'm not the most qualified person on this forum, but I am certainly more qualified than some. Take whatever I say with a grain of salt. What might work in small metro shitlaw might not work everywhere.

Also, what the above poster forgets is that in shitlaw there is a higher attrition than biglaw. You have to continually bring in clients. Your clients will refer other friends and come back if they have another legal need, but by and large the number of repeat customers is lower than biglaw considerably. It is not like people are getting into car accidents and becoming disfigured every 3 months of their life. So even if you have been doing something for generations- which really only means that you're shown what places to go to network and most importantly how to network and how to actually do legal work (something law school teaches you nothing about)- you can still make a name for your self and eek out a living in your practice niche. There are new lawyers who pop up all the time that manage to build a practice in shit law that live a respectable lifestyle. However, the model is always pretty much the same and they all do the same things to be and stay successful.

Hustle.
Last edited by typ3 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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typ3
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby typ3 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:41 am

Broseidon wrote:The part about immigrant churches is actually quite credited. Yes, many won't be able to afford high fees, but what he said about everybody flocking to you after you help one is true. Anecdote is anecdotal, but a guy my brother went to HS with helped an indian family with a car accident. Now, dude has essentially become the general counsel for the entire Indian-american sect of that community. He has had over 200 clients fall into his lap from that one case (PI, wills, real estate, etc).


Credited. It's nearly the same for every church and organization.

Even though I assume the majority of people won't heed my advice.. to quote the most famous shitlaw attorney of them all, Gerry Spence "My intent is to tell the truth as I know it, realizing that what is true for me may be blasphemy for others."

Edit: Sorry realized the majority of my advice in this thread was about how to rainmake in shitlaw. That might have confused some people since a lot of law students just want to hide behind a desk or internet forum when the world is full of real people with real legal problems. Start being a real person and talk to real people outside of your educational / occupational bubble and you'll be successful.

Marketing does not equal Advertising.

timbs4339
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:06 pm

typ3 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
typ3 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:On second thought you don't, since I'd say most law school admins aren't debt slaves. Unless you were actually serious about thinking your competition for the 100K+ cases is going to be old white guys who can't market themselves. How many union shop stewards do you regularly go out to dinner with?


...I turned down Columbia to attend a lower ranked regional public school school on scholarship debt free and attended a low rank public university on scholarship for UG debt free since my career ambitions have always been to go into small firm plaintiff personal injury shitlaw since the attorneys who make real money do that.. and if Gerry Spence employs a Thomas Cooley law graduate then there isn't any sense in chasing after prestige.

You don't need to talk to union shop stewards. Here's how it works as far as I know coming from my multi-generational shitlaw family that per attorney makes upper 6 to 7 figures a year in a rural area population of 160k

Talk to every person you see everywhere you go. Ask the people about themselves, from the cashiers, to the clerks etc. Become friends with everyone you meet. Ask them to grab a burger, cup of coffee, lunch, or whatever. Get said coffee. Meet their friends, do the same. Get some business cards. Tell them you're a lawyer. Take in every type of work at first to establish a referral network and market. Focus on marketing, not advertising. Word of mouth >> Billboard. Once people have had an attorney for any sort of legal issue once, they will continue to visit them.

When a client hires you send them a letter with a brochure and business card. After you've resolved their legal problem send them a thank you letter with another business card and cross sell your other services. Focus on customer service.

If you can't find work out of the gate, open your local phone book find a bunch of the immigrant churches. Call them and make friends with the pastor. Attend a few services. It'll be awkward as hell at first but try to make friends with people (this is how you network). Normally if you get into an immigrant community in a city the immigrant community will go to you for all of their legal services since you will be the person that Ukranians / Somolians / Guatemalans etc. can trust and people talk among themselves in communities. Also these people tend to be working in the blue-collar jobs (meat packing, heavy labor, etc.) and thus are more likely to get injured, need to file bankruptcy, etc. Once you have established yourself in a few churches, start going to other ones. Growing up (I'm the son of a 3rd generation shit-law attorney myself) my father would drag me to 3 or 4 Sunday services at churches around town. This is the fastest way to network and hustle with blue-collar, wage earning people. Generally once you have handled a few cases for people in a church at a part of town you can get the rest of the community to come. Like I said, word of mouth marketing from people >> advertising.


First, you describe the competition as a bunch of old white guys who are lazy and can't market themselves. Then you go on a lengthy screed about bunch of experienced attorneys who hustle, have roots in the community, and have done shit-law for generations. Newsflash, Luke: YOUR FATHER IS THE COMPETITION. In any metro area or region there are going to be five or six of these well-known local guys and they are getting all the decent cases. Not some kid from Long Island who went to Cardozo and wants to be a shitlaw superstar in Ohio.

The fact you don't have debt and have built-in family connections makes you supremely unqualified to be lecturing most law students on running a models and bottles shitlaw practice. Most law students don't have daddy to hand them clients, take them around and introduce them to people, or feed them 50K for a decent ad budget.


See straw man fallacy. Check the poster above you crediting what I said as being solid advice. I won't have debt because I based every higher educational decision like a financial one and went to the highest ranked places I could that were still free with scholarships and either worked to pay for my room and board or just didn't go out. I gave up Ivy LS + UG debt for regional landgrant public institutions at no debt.

Actually, I would think that I am supremely qualified to lecture law students on how to run a shit-law model considering I've been raised around a variety of different successful shit law practices and run the marketing / advertising for quite a few regional attorneys. Not to mention, my decision to forego prestige and focus my entire educational career on the bottom line makes me more qualified than a lot of TLS posters who are entirely focused on HYS and becoming a corporate drone for 7-8 years before they laid off. Cutting to the chase, a lot of commodity workers can't bring in work. How many 35+ year old attorneys know how to run internet advertising and marketing campaigns or know how to run a law practice on cloud SaaS software? Sure my father is the competition, but I run the advertising, back office staff, and intake and he is nowhere near capable of doing any of the above if they involve a device that uses electricity. My budget is no where near 50k and the large majority of clients are gotten through hustling. How many biglaw attorneys or attorneys in general have the audacity or the balls to show up at a new church where they know no one and manage to muster and make conversation with strangers?

The expectation when I graduate is to get my own clients.

If I don't get my own clients I don't eat or I get paid the amount legal assistants and interns make which comes out to 13.50-17.00 an hour depending on employment experience. I'm a rookie so I start at 13.50. That has always been the expectation in my family. Unlike defense firms and biglaw it's sink or swim in shitlaw. I'm guessing unlike a lot of posters on here I've actually handled shitlaw cases and clients since I've been 14. I've probably been to more 341 meetings that most lawyers go to in their lifetime. I've drafted well over a hundred personal injury demands. I've handled custody disputes, pissed off clients, nasty divorce litigation, birth mothers, and sat for countless hours trying to help immigrants figure out how to take debt counseling courses online so I can file their bankruptcy petition with the court. I'm sure I'm not the most qualified person on this forum, but I am certainly more qualified than some. Take whatever I say with a grain of salt. What might work in small metro shitlaw might not work everywhere.

Also, what the above poster forgets is that in shitlaw there is a higher attrition than biglaw. You have to continually bring in clients. Your clients will refer other friends and come back if they have another legal need, but by and large the number of repeat customers is lower than biglaw considerably. It is not like people are getting into car accidents and becoming disfigured every 3 months of their life. So even if you have been doing something for generations- which really only means that you're shown what places to go to network and most importantly how to network and how to actually do legal work (something law school teaches you nothing about)- you can still make a name for your self and eek out a living in your practice niche. There are new lawyers who pop up all the time that manage to build a practice in shit law that live a respectable lifestyle. However, the model is always pretty much the same and they all do the same things to be and stay successful.

Hustle.


Yes, it's easy to go to a regional school with a scholarship when you have a family practice that you can fall back on. Quit being dense. The OP did not specify that he had a rich family fall back on if he failed. Until he does, your advice doesn't mean shit. Most law students did not come from a family of lawyers. Most are not going to make hundreds of thousands or dollars and work 40 hrs a week in shitlaw by just "hustling." If you just want to brag about your family and how shrewd you are, say so and I'll stop posting ITT, but if you actually think your advice is solid for the majority of unemployed law grads I'm going to keep pointing out how much you sound like the spawn of Tracey Flick and Ben Affleck's character from Boiler Room.

Turning down Harvard to go to a lower ranked law school in order to chase the dream of being a PI attorney without all the connections and background you have is lunacy. Every region of the country is going to be full of locally educated, well-connected, older attorneys who are going to have the lock on all the big cases, the war chest to see them through on contingency, and the advertising budget to make your meager attempts at "hustling" inadequate. The average solo definitely won't be making bank and definitely won't be working just 30 hours a week shepherding a couple of $1.5 mil verdicts to settlement. Every time you talk about your family you only prove my point.

You don't need to "run a law practice using cloud SaaS software" or "run internet advertising and marketing campaigns." You just need to know enough to hire someone to do those things for you and then have the money to hire them. That's no problem for the successful PI lawyer, and those guys are shrewd enough to do it.

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Mce252
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby Mce252 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:21 pm

joedf wrote:I was just curious about this, since I continually here about people gutting themselves for their job.

Is there a field of law where you would typically expect to work 50-60 hours per week, instead of 70-80+?



Being an attorney requires specialized knowledge and the learning curve is steep because law school doesn't teach you very much about being an attorney. It doesn't matter what area of law you go into; if you want to be really good at what you do, the first four or five years are going to be rough work hours. If you are able to go into the office at 9 and leave at 5 Monday through Friday for the first several years of your practice, you are going to be way behind and very limited in the future.

This is the same expectation of doctors, most engineers, and other specialized professions. Get used to it.

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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby dingbat » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:09 pm

Mce252 wrote:Being an attorney requires specialized knowledge and the learning curve is steep because law school doesn't teach you very much about being an attorney. It doesn't matter what area of law you go into; if you want to be really good at what you do, the first four or five years are going to be rough work hours. If you are able to go into the office at 9 and leave at 5 Monday through Friday for the first several years of your practice, you are going to be way behind and very limited in the future.

This is the same expectation of doctors, most engineers, and other specialized professions. Get used to it.

I hate to say it, but, this is the american school of thought.
My brother lives in Europe and was a full-blown surgeon, with an additional PhD, before he turned 30, and he never worked crazy hours, unless there was something unusual like an last-minute extra-long surgery or an emergency toward the end of his shift. He typically puts in 40-50 hour weeks, and gets twenty-something days off per year. Even better, if he's scheduled for a night shift, they give him a week off (paid) to recuperate and readjust to a daytime schedule.

He doesn't make as much money as he would over here, but he decided against moving here because it would negatively impact his quality of life.


Edit: also want to point out that America is one of the few countries where a JD can start practicing right away. Most other countries you'd need to first work in a training capacity for a few years, because, like you said a fresh graduate doesn't have the knowledge necessary

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kalvano
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby kalvano » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:59 pm

Taking random strangers out for coffee in order to hustle legal work sounds worse than working 6 straight 100+ hour weeks at the worst law firm in the country.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:04 pm

kalvano wrote:Taking random strangers out for coffee in order to hustle legal work sounds worse than working 6 straight 100+ hour weeks at the worst law firm in the country.

Also, this thread is supposed to be about law jobs that take fewer hours, and I don't think a job where you're trying to hustle work from everyone you ever meet, and spending sundays going to multiple churches just to try and pick up more work, counts. I don't like the idea of treating every waking hour as a work hour.

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kalvano
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby kalvano » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:14 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
kalvano wrote:Taking random strangers out for coffee in order to hustle legal work sounds worse than working 6 straight 100+ hour weeks at the worst law firm in the country.

Also, this thread is supposed to be about law jobs that take fewer hours, and I don't think a job where you're trying to hustle work from everyone you ever meet, and spending sundays going to multiple churches just to try and pick up more work, counts. I don't like the idea of treating every waking hour as a work hour.



I worked in sales. Hustling sucks. It's a constant drain and a time suck. I'd rather work more hours at a firm where they hand me the client or do the marketing to get them in the door.

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Broseidon
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby Broseidon » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:19 pm

kalvano wrote:I'd rather work more hours at a firm where they hand me the client or do the marketing to get them in the door.

Not to sound snippy, but I'm assuming you don't plan on making partner.

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kalvano
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby kalvano » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:19 pm

Broseidon wrote:
kalvano wrote:I'd rather work more hours at a firm where they hand me the client or do the marketing to get them in the door.

Not to sound snippy, but I'm assuming you don't plan on making partner.


Not really. I don't want to stick around with a firm forever.

But even if I did, it's different on many levels than what is being described above. Partners aren't joining immigrant churches to drum up business.

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typ3
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby typ3 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:37 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Yes, it's easy to go to a regional school with a scholarship when you have a family practice that you can fall back on. Quit being dense. The OP did not specify that he had a rich family fall back on if he failed. Until he does, your advice doesn't mean shit. Most law students did not come from a family of lawyers. Most are not going to make hundreds of thousands or dollars and work 40 hrs a week in shitlaw by just "hustling." If you just want to brag about your family and how shrewd you are, say so and I'll stop posting ITT, but if you actually think your advice is solid for the majority of unemployed law grads I'm going to keep pointing out how much you sound like the spawn of Tracey Flick and Ben Affleck's character from Boiler Room.

Turning down Harvard to go to a lower ranked law school in order to chase the dream of being a PI attorney without all the connections and background you have is lunacy. Every region of the country is going to be full of locally educated, well-connected, older attorneys who are going to have the lock on all the big cases, the war chest to see them through on contingency, and the advertising budget to make your meager attempts at "hustling" inadequate. The average solo definitely won't be making bank and definitely won't be working just 30 hours a week shepherding a couple of $1.5 mil verdicts to settlement. Every time you talk about your family you only prove my point.

You don't need to "run a law practice using cloud SaaS software" or "run internet advertising and marketing campaigns." You just need to know enough to hire someone to do those things for you and then have the money to hire them. That's no problem for the successful PI lawyer, and those guys are shrewd enough to do it.


Once again, straw man fallacy.

Like I said I am being paid $13.50 an hour when I graduate unless I get my own work. I don't know how that equates to being coddled. There is attrition rate in every business, every year, in every region. You must continually go out and find work, meet people, and make connections if you want to succeed. It is the same in any industry.

The things I discussed were how to build a shitlaw practice out of the gate. You're not going to get the lion's share of the big cases coming out of school. You need to build a reputation and sustainable stable practice over time. Rome wasn't built in a day. I personally think bankruptcy / immigration work is the fastest easiest work to delegate to non-lawyer staff and build recurring stable revenue. Have another suggestion? Most lawyers don't want to hustle or go and meet new people. They want to rely on flashy ads and billboards. I can make more meaningful impressions and connections in a day (which equates to work) than an ad can. Talking to people belly to belly results in more work than a Facebook or internet ad.

Good luck winning a case even if you do wind up in front of a jury if you can't talk to people, make connections with people, or make the average person trust you. You will fail as a lawyer in shitlaw. You're dealing with real people with real legal problems. People want someone they can like and trust. Being a lawyer who people would like to have a beer with, watch a football game with, or catch a cup of coffee with will get you a lot further than being a blowhard on a billboard with few people skills just wanting to get a quick settlement. Get your hands dirty and meet people. No one in shitlaw cares about what law review you did or what school you graduated from. They care if you are a normal person who is trustworthy and is likeable.

There are a lot of restaurants out there but somehow there are ones that open every year and stay open. How many dives and dinners stay open despite new competition that is flashy and highly funded? The same thing happens in business. Either you are going to succeed in shitlaw and business or you are not. Financial resources help, but they are not a guarantee of success in law or business. (See every highly funded VC failure product ever.)

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:45 am

typ3 wrote: ...I turned down Columbia to...go into...shitlaw.


FTFY.

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DougieFresh
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Re: What fields of law typically have less work hours?

Postby DougieFresh » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:42 pm

Underemployment.




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