Top Law Schools

Broseidon wrote:

uvabro wrote:

Broseidon wrote:Major in Finance/Economics/Business/Accounting/etc>>>Work for 3-5 years>>>Get MBA>>>Profit

certainly would be less work.

It's really the only education path that actually teaches you how to make money. Law and medicine try to minimize it (which is probably the right move, considering the nature of the professions).

esther0123 wrote:I was around this forum for some months, as some of you from LSAT prep discussion group may know. Due to a lack of preparation over the summer, I decided to postpone my writing until 2013 and take a gap year. I'm currently completing my final year in ugrad and with this time at hand, it got me thinking whether law school was really a realistic and practical investment of my time and money.

I find that a lot of law school websites are biased and inflated in their report of employment prospect and average starting salary so I come here to seek honest opinion.

I am 22 years old, have chemistry research experience all throughout undergrad with a thesis in completion. I am a mentor for a youth at risk for almost 3 years (and ongoing) and I too was from a disadvantaged family growing up. I have a 3.9 GPA (and hopefully will be better by the time I graduate) from a top 3 Canadian university.

My grades are good enough to apply to medschool in Canada. While medschool seems to be the more traditional route for someone of my background (BSc Hons), I've always felt that I had a stronger humanities bent -- I didn't really know what I wanted when I graduated highschool --, strong interest in social justice (owing to my personal background), and the prospect of going abroad (US) for law school appeal to me. I felt that JD from a hyper prestigious university (HYS CCN) would grant me further regional/career flexibility that a Canadian JD or MD could not. For instance, once you graduate with an MD, you are unlikely to be qualified for uch else than your specialization (if you have one)... plus, specialist positions in metropolitan areas for MDs are saturated, so most of the newly graduated MD's are either not finding placements or being positioned in rural areas. But despite the lack of mobility, MD market is far more stable than US JD market, from what I gather....

From a rough research I've done on legal market in the States seems like a bit of a disaster, and the only way to survive the storm is to graduate from a very prestigious law school. But even then, the employment prospect is not as glorious as before, and as an international student I imagine my loan repayment programs will be limited. The possibility of graduating with 200 000+ dollars in debt without a high paying job to balance it off within a few years really scare me, and it makes me question whether law school is in fact a good idea for me.

I had the hope of entering into policy or academia, but I realize both are extremely competitive fields that again, place high value on prestige of the school you graduate from.

Having said all this, I was hoping that someone can shed a (hopefully) unbiased view on whether shooting for the very top law schools is a good investment, as opposed to playing safe and trying out for Canadian MD where the job market security is intact.

Thanks in advance!

uvabro wrote: I thought making $ was just about making other people like you (by learning their needs and satisfying them), offer them something of value and do it at a better cost <> quality than the competition? What else is there?

AreJay711 wrote:If you are interested in policy or academia, law school probably isn't a good idea. It is really expensive and you can do something else -- either work directly for a policy organization and /or get a PhD -- to promote that career in a much more targeted and cost effective way. I'd also caution that law school isn't really that much like the humanities.

If you want to make the Benjamins find something you like doing and start your own business it it after you get a few years experience.

JCFindley wrote:

dingbat wrote:

JCFindley wrote:Profitable return on your investment? HA! I would be better off playing blackjack in AC!

I am here because I really want to be a lawyer. As a return for an investment there are FAR better ways to do it.

Investing in death tends to do very well. Other than that, I know very few investments that are as good as a top law school

If by top LS you mean YHS, probably. Any other LS at sticker, may or may not be a good investment.

esther0123 wrote: Hey, yeah, I was told that best route to academia or policy is generally a PhD in relevant field. But because of my undergraduate program, my options to even get admitted to a Master's program or get hired into a policy organization are very limited. I hope to get internships in local thinktanks -- and I will certainly give it a shot--, but all the positions prefer economics or political science majors and alike. So I figured the most feasible jump I can make from my BSc would be to a JD, and try to get my foot in the door that way... :S

uvabro wrote:I thought making $ was just about making other people like you (by learning their needs and satisfying them), offer them something of value and do it at a better cost <> quality than the competition? What else is there?

twentypercentmore wrote:The problem that I see isn't the fact that you have a 50-50 chance of getting a biglaw job, it's the fact that you had to spend 150k plus COA and interest to do so. I feel like for those odds, law school just isn't worth it. On top of that, the market is changing too much to estimate this in actuality. Four years ago, going to Columbia meant you had an almost 100% chance of biglaw, now not so much.

That said, any T14 with an 100k+ scholarship is perfectly acceptable, minus GULC since you're not a US Citizen and will have a hard time getting a federal spot. It's really hard to go wrong if you're going to only end up with about 50k down no matter what. Personally, I think Cornell with an 100k scholarship is a better option than NYU at sticker.

ChampagnePapi wrote:

twentypercentmore wrote:The problem that I see isn't the fact that you have a 50-50 chance of getting a biglaw job, it's the fact that you had to spend 150k plus COA and interest to do so. I feel like for those odds, law school just isn't worth it. On top of that, the market is changing too much to estimate this in actuality. Four years ago, going to Columbia meant you had an almost 100% chance of biglaw, now not so much.

That said, any T14 with an 100k+ scholarship is perfectly acceptable, minus GULC since you're not a US Citizen and will have a hard time getting a federal spot. It's really hard to go wrong if you're going to only end up with about 50k down no matter what. Personally, I think Cornell with an 100k scholarship is a better option than NYU at sticker.

A 100+k scholarship still leaves you with around $150k of debt at most T14's, which you'll need biglaw to pay off.

ChampagnePapi wrote:

twentypercentmore wrote:The problem that I see isn't the fact that you have a 50-50 chance of getting a biglaw job, it's the fact that you had to spend 150k plus COA and interest to do so. I feel like for those odds, law school just isn't worth it. On top of that, the market is changing too much to estimate this in actuality. Four years ago, going to Columbia meant you had an almost 100% chance of biglaw, now not so much.

That said, any T14 with an 100k+ scholarship is perfectly acceptable, minus GULC since you're not a US Citizen and will have a hard time getting a federal spot. It's really hard to go wrong if you're going to only end up with about 50k down no matter what. Personally, I think Cornell with an 100k scholarship is a better option than NYU at sticker.

A 100+k scholarship still leaves you with around $150k of debt at most T14's, which you'll need biglaw to pay off.

twentypercentmore wrote:

ChampagnePapi wrote:

twentypercentmore wrote:The problem that I see isn't the fact that you have a 50-50 chance of getting a biglaw job, it's the fact that you had to spend 150k plus COA and interest to do so. I feel like for those odds, law school just isn't worth it. On top of that, the market is changing too much to estimate this in actuality. Four years ago, going to Columbia meant you had an almost 100% chance of biglaw, now not so much.

That said, any T14 with an 100k+ scholarship is perfectly acceptable, minus GULC since you're not a US Citizen and will have a hard time getting a federal spot. It's really hard to go wrong if you're going to only end up with about 50k down no matter what. Personally, I think Cornell with an 100k scholarship is a better option than NYU at sticker.

A 100+k scholarship still leaves you with around $150k of debt at most T14's, which you'll need biglaw to pay off.

An 100k scholarship means you're paying about 18k in tuition a year max, plus room and board. If you work your summers, have a roommate, pull from savings, cash in on all those treasury bonds your aunt gave you for your first birthday, etc., I think it's totally reasonable to graduate with less than 40k of debt.

twentypercentmore wrote: An 100k scholarship means you're paying about 18k in tuition a year max, plus room and board. If you work your summers, have a roommate, pull from savings, cash in on all those treasury bonds your aunt gave you for your first birthday, etc., I think it's totally reasonable to graduate with less than 40k of debt.

twentypercentmore wrote:I'm sorry, I'm not purposefully attempting to make anyone mad here. I personally don't see why "don't any of you have any money" isn't valid. I worked for a year after college in a fairly low-paying position and ended the year with about 17k. By no means great, but hey.

I get that a lot of graduates can't/won't find jobs, have UG debt, hate their parents, whatever. I just think not having any money going into LS could be the exception, not the norm.

twentypercentmore wrote: I worked for a year after college in a fairly low-paying position and ended the year with about 17k. .

sinfiery wrote:Most presume their earning ability would increase by a rate greater than ~7% over the 3 years they spend in lawschool, so why bother?

At least, that's what I presume and why I don't find any financial incentive to save up money before LS.

You may be an exception, and it may be that the reason so many people struggle comes down to poor money management (and that you are very good at money management), but even many of those who are good with money have significant debt from undergrad, car payments, rental costs, insurance, health costs, and other debt that will absorb the type of savings ability you are suggesting.

Finally, if you have a trust fund or very wealthy parents to fall back on that could also explain why you seem so confident the debt will be very manageable to you.

Jimbo_Jones wrote:Engineers I know say "Don't go into engineering, your job will just get outsourced to India or China"
Doctors I know say "Don't go into medicine, it will be 10+ years before you start making good money and all your patients will try and sue you"
MBA's I know say "Don't go into business, you'll be a dime a dozen manager at a McDonald's and have your life sucked away"
Lawyers I know say "Don't go into law, there are no jobs and the hours will suck your life away"

riverofbbq wrote:

Jimbo_Jones wrote:Engineers I know say "Don't go into engineering, your job will just get outsourced to India or China"
Doctors I know say "Don't go into medicine, it will be 10+ years before you start making good money and all your patients will try and sue you"
MBA's I know say "Don't go into business, you'll be a dime a dozen manager at a McDonald's and have your life sucked away"
Lawyers I know say "Don't go into law, there are no jobs and the hours will suck your life away"

I call b.s. on this one. I've never heard of/read about someone getting an MBA from a reputable school getting a job at McDonalds.

riverofbbq wrote:

Jimbo_Jones wrote:Engineers I know say "Don't go into engineering, your job will just get outsourced to India or China"
Doctors I know say "Don't go into medicine, it will be 10+ years before you start making good money and all your patients will try and sue you"
MBA's I know say "Don't go into business, you'll be a dime a dozen manager at a McDonald's and have your life sucked away"
Lawyers I know say "Don't go into law, there are no jobs and the hours will suck your life away"

I call b.s. on this one. I've never heard of/read about someone getting an MBA from a reputable school getting a job at McDonalds.