Pre law programs during undergrad

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Tushbush
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby Tushbush » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:28 am

Bullshit. Sitting in a class for 4 months getting first hand experience>>>lurking on TLS reading posts created by people who have extremely exaggerated their LSAT scores and gpa.

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John Mill
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby John Mill » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:39 am

Tushbush wrote:Bullshit. Sitting in a class for 4 months getting first hand experience>>>lurking on TLS reading posts created by people who have extremely exaggerated their LSAT scores and gpa.

Except your not getting first hand experience. Your getting a very basic idea of what law school is like by being exposed to (I assume) the Socratic method, and a very general idea of what your 1L classes will cover. You can get this same perspective doing your own research online or by lurking on TLS.

If anything a class like what you just described probably does tangible harm. People will take that class, blow through it because its High School level, and think that their going to stroll their way through law school the same way. Next thing you know they take out a six figure dept, and their drowning in law school because it turns out, no, their high school class didn't prepare them at all.

Nothing can really fully prepare you for law school. If you want a major that will help you do well in law school pick Philosophy, if you want to have other options should law school fall through, go with Econ. If its really want you want and you think you will enjoy it, by all means go prelaw, but DO NOT do that because you think it will give you some kind of an advantage in law school, because it wont.

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quiver
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby quiver » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:25 am

John Mill wrote:Nothing can really fully prepare you for law school. If you want a major that will help you do well in law school pick Philosophy, if you want to have other options should law school fall through, go with Econ. If its really want you want and you think you will enjoy it, by all means go prelaw, but DO NOT do that because you think it will give you some kind of an advantage in law school, because it wont.
I agree with this except for the bolded. I don't think a philosophy major has a leg up on anyone just because they were a philosophy major. Just take what you're interested in and what you can get the highest grades in.

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John Mill
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby John Mill » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:49 pm

quiver wrote:
John Mill wrote:Nothing can really fully prepare you for law school. If you want a major that will help you do well in law school pick Philosophy, if you want to have other options should law school fall through, go with Econ. If its really want you want and you think you will enjoy it, by all means go prelaw, but DO NOT do that because you think it will give you some kind of an advantage in law school, because it wont.
I agree with this except for the bolded. I don't think a philosophy major has a leg up on anyone just because they were a philosophy major. Just take what you're interested in and what you can get the highest grades in.


Well statistically Philosophy majors do the best on the LSATs.

Im a clueless 0L so I wont pretend to know how much it will actually help you in law school, but I can say just starting my philosophy studies Ive gotten more out of it than any other classes. My reading and analytically skills have improved most dramatically. Although that could just be me responding well to it, everybody learns in a different way, and any major teaches you some kind of skill.

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IAFG
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:04 pm

Tushbush wrote:Bullshit. Sitting in a class for 4 months getting first hand experience>>>lurking on TLS reading posts created by people who have extremely exaggerated their LSAT scores and gpa.

Whenever people accuse TLSers of exaggerating their LSAT score, I think, "Jesus, how bad did you do on the LSAT, that you think someone claiming a 17X is lying?"

If tons of people are lying about their LSAT scores, they must be lying about where they got admitted, too, because you can't get in with shitty stats. So we're all just sitting around pretending we go to top law schools and are worried about curriculum planning, OCI, etc? Rly?

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kwais
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby kwais » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:13 pm

Legacy Rabbit wrote:With all due respect, there is no "pre-law" major. I have heard community colleges offering "majors" similar to "that", and if you are attending a school that even offers such a thing, you may want to consider transferring out.

You may want to look into majoring or minoring in Philosophy There was a post in this forum regarding majors / minors in Philosphy. Personally, one of my majors is in Philosophy; it has been nothing but a benefit as I study for the LSAT.

Resources for you: --LinkRemoved--

The Practical Benefits of Majoring in Philosophy
The study of philosophy furnishes you with skills that are useful in any career that demands critical thinking skills, creative problem solving skills, the ability to explain and see ideas, the ability to understand and organize complex information, analytical thinking skills, communication skills, writing skills, comfort with disagreement, calm and rational thinking, and an ability and interest in understanding ideas.

Pre-Law in Philosophy
The Chronicle of Higher Education compared popular pre-law majors and determined that philosophy majors consistently outscore other majors, by a large margin, on the Law School Admission Test (LSAT). See the Chart Below.



Major LSAT
Philosophy +8.7%
English +5.6%
History +2.9%
Psych +0.9%
Political Science -1.6%

This data is not surprising given the rigorous logical training one gets as a philosophy major. Philosophy majors excel in law school, and in the practice of law because philosophy students are continually required to build logical and well-argued causes for their ideas. By the time a student graduates with a degree in philosophy, they have developed an expertise for distinguishing good arguments from poor arguments. This skill is essential to the practice of law.


whoa wait a second. someone does a study on LSAT scores and decides to extend their conclusion to law school grades and law practice? I don't think so.

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quiver
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby quiver » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:36 pm

John Mill wrote:
quiver wrote:
John Mill wrote:Nothing can really fully prepare you for law school. If you want a major that will help you do well in law school pick Philosophy, if you want to have other options should law school fall through, go with Econ. If its really want you want and you think you will enjoy it, by all means go prelaw, but DO NOT do that because you think it will give you some kind of an advantage in law school, because it wont.
I agree with this except for the bolded. I don't think a philosophy major has a leg up on anyone just because they were a philosophy major. Just take what you're interested in and what you can get the highest grades in.


Well statistically Philosophy majors do the best on the LSATs.

Im a clueless 0L so I wont pretend to know how much it will actually help you in law school, but I can say just starting my philosophy studies Ive gotten more out of it than any other classes. My reading and analytically skills have improved most dramatically. Although that could just be me responding well to it, everybody learns in a different way, and any major teaches you some kind of skill.
Doing well on the LSAT does not equal doing well in law school.

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IAFG
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:59 pm

OMFG.

It couldn't possibly be because UG Phil classes generally include some of the basic LR concepts could it? Let's not get carried away, 9 points over median is still a pretty crappy score.

bhan87
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby bhan87 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Tushbush wrote:Bullshit. Sitting in a class for 4 months getting first hand experience>>>lurking on TLS reading posts created by people who have extremely exaggerated their LSAT scores and gpa.


Looks like someone is majoring in pre-law :D

bhan87
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby bhan87 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:22 pm

Tushbush wrote:For instance, I have a class at my school in which our prof is a lawyer and 75% of the students have plans for law school. Because of this, our prof decided to teach the class exactly like 1L law classes to give us an idea of how law school classes will be taught (so he claims). Granted, we have basically covered every required 1L class, (crim law, crim procedure, civil procedure, etc. in one semester, so we have not gone into too much depth. But, this should give us a baseline knowledge that Econ, polo sci, and finance majors may not have. No?


1. I wonder how many of those 75% end up going to a reputable law school.
2. Of those that go to law school, I wonder how many end up finding this class helpful in any way.
3. For those that actually do find it helpful, I wonder how many actually got better grades.

Probably along the lines of:

1. Not many
2. Even fewer
3. LOLZ

And no, it won't give you any baseline knowledge because even if an UG class tries to imitate a law school course, there will be fundamental differences that the UG class can't hope to emulate. 1. Most likely no forced curve that is as brutal as the 1L curve in law schools. 2. Your peers in law school will generally all have done very well in UG to get into law school in the first place.

What does this add up to? You could end up getting an A in an UG pre-law class, but would have scored bottom of the curve in a law school course.

Also, no, exposure to the materials beforehand doesn't help very much either.

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Legacy Rabbit
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby Legacy Rabbit » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:30 pm

You are reaching because you want to.

This study does not give any specifics about a direct correlation between law school grades and success in law practice. The person noted on the website that philo majors do well in the law school and in law practice because philo majors learn to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones. Everyone knows there are a number of variables that lead to success in law school and law pracitice.

You are attempting to add specificity to a claim that is only making a general statement.

The study gives claim that amongst the undergraduate majors mentioned, those with philo degrees are scoring higher on the LSAT then the noted counterparts. That is it.

kwais wrote:
Legacy Rabbit wrote:With all due respect, there is no "pre-law" major. I have heard community colleges offering "majors" similar to "that", and if you are attending a school that even offers such a thing, you may want to consider transferring out.

You may want to look into majoring or minoring in Philosophy There was a post in this forum regarding majors / minors in Philosphy. Personally, one of my majors is in Philosophy; it has been nothing but a benefit as I study for the LSAT.

Resources for you: --LinkRemoved--

The Practical Benefits of Majoring in Philosophy
The study of philosophy furnishes you with skills that are useful in any career that demands critical thinking skills, creative problem solving skills, the ability to explain and see ideas, the ability to understand and organize complex information, analytical thinking skills, communication skills, writing skills, comfort with disagreement, calm and rational thinking, and an ability and interest in understanding ideas.

Pre-Law in Philosophy
The Chronicle of Higher Education compared popular pre-law majors and determined that philosophy majors consistently outscore other majors, by a large margin, on the Law School Admission Test (LSAT). See the Chart Below.



Major LSAT
Philosophy +8.7%
English +5.6%
History +2.9%
Psych +0.9%
Political Science -1.6%

This data is not surprising given the rigorous logical training one gets as a philosophy major. Philosophy majors excel in law school, and in the practice of law because philosophy students are continually required to build logical and well-argued causes for their ideas. By the time a student graduates with a degree in philosophy, they have developed an expertise for distinguishing good arguments from poor arguments. This skill is essential to the practice of law.


whoa wait a second. someone does a study on LSAT scores and decides to extend their conclusion to law school grades and law practice? I don't think so.

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IAFG
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:39 pm

Legacy Rabbit wrote:You are reaching because you want to.

This study does not give any specifics about a direct correlation between law school grades and success in law practice. The person noted on the website that philo majors do well in the law school and in law practice because philo majors learn to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones. Everyone knows there are a number of variables that lead to success in law school and law pracitice.


The bolded is beyond stupid.

You are attempting to add specificity to a claim that is only making a general statement.


No one is doing anything of the sort. The issue is with this moronic bit of editorializing:

This data is not surprising given the rigorous logical training one gets as a philosophy major. Philosophy majors excel in law school, and in the practice of law because philosophy students are continually required to build logical and well-argued causes for their ideas. By the time a student graduates with a degree in philosophy, they have developed an expertise for distinguishing good arguments from poor arguments. This skill is essential to the practice of law.

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John Mill
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby John Mill » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:57 pm

The only real way a prelaw major/minor will help you is in deciding whether you actually wanna go to law school or not. Once in law school the advantage ends. So really you can get what you need out of it from one or two classes, if you enjoy the classes and get good grades in them, go ahead and minor, at the very least being good in them will help your GPA. But dont do so because you expect an advantage of any kind.

And for the love of God dont major in it for that reason, a prelaw degree is useless for anything else, and if anything it will probably do more harm than good once you reach 1L.

Legacy Rabbit wrote: philo majors do well in the law school and in law practice because philo majors learn to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones.


Actually arguing has almost nothing to do with law, at least no more so than it does with any profession. I think the reason a Philosophy major can help is becaus it trains you to read long, difficult stuff and understand it.

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Legacy Rabbit
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby Legacy Rabbit » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:31 pm

IAFG,

The bolded is beyond stupid?
Take a break from your 3+ year, amost 9000 posts at TLS, and sit in an intro to logic class, so you may learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones.

IAFG wrote:
Legacy abbit wrote:You are reaching because you want to.

This study does not give any specifics about a direct correlation between law school grades and success in law practice. The person noted on the website that philo majors do well in the law school and in law practice because philo majors learn to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones. Everyone knows there are a number of variables that lead to success in law school and law pracitice.


The bolded is beyond stupid.

You are attempting to add specificity to a claim that is only making a general statement.


No one is doing anything of the sort. The issue is with this moronic bit of editorializing:

This data is not surprising given the rigorous logical training one gets as a philosophy major. Philosophy majors excel in law school, and in the practice of law because philosophy students are continually required to build logical and well-argued causes for their ideas. By the time a student graduates with a degree in philosophy, they have developed an expertise for distinguishing good arguments from poor arguments. This skill is essential to the practice of law.

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vpintz
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby vpintz » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:34 pm

Legacy Rabbit wrote:IAFG,

The bolded is beyond stupid?
Take a break from your 3+ year, amost 9000 posts at TLS, and sit in an intro to logic class, so you may learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones.

lolk

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IAFG
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:38 pm

Legacy Rabbit wrote:IAFG,

The bolded is beyond stupid?
Take a break from your 3+ year, amost 9000 posts at TLS, and sit in an intro to logic class, so you may learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones.



There are so many things wrong with this argument I can't believe you're actually taking the position that phil majors have a superior ability to argue. First of all, legal arguments are not logically complex. Second, you're making an ad hominem attack based on my post count and tenure here. Third, you have no evidence at all to support your ultimate contention that phil majors make better lawyers. In fact, the Michigan study on URMs being peer practitioners after being lesser LSAT scorers and academic achievers is a pretty fatal blow.

But you're right that you're more likely to get a 158 than a different major so... enjoy that?

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Legacy Rabbit
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby Legacy Rabbit » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:04 pm

Yes, it is clearly quantified you hold "tenure" at TLS, good for you. However, you should sit in an intro to logic class, so you could learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones. Heck, there will be multiple chapters in the class text and a professor, so how the bold is beyond stupid is on you.

IAFG wrote:
Legacy Rabbit wrote:IAFG,

The bolded is beyond stupid?
Take a break from your 3+ year, amost 9000 posts at TLS, and sit in an intro to logic class, so you may learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones.



There are so many things wrong with this argument I can't believe you're actually taking the position that phil majors have a superior ability to argue. First of all, legal arguments are not logically complex. Second, you're making an ad hominem attack based on my post count and tenure here. Third, you have no evidence at all to support your ultimate contention that phil majors make better lawyers. In fact, the Michigan study on URMs being peer practitioners after being lesser LSAT scorers and academic achievers is a pretty fatal blow.

But you're right that you're more likely to get a 158 than a different major so... enjoy that?

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franklyscarlet
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby franklyscarlet » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:11 pm

Ahem...

ten·ure (tnyr, -yr)
n.
1.
a. The act, fact, or condition of holding something in one's possession, as real estate or an office; occupation.
b. A period during which something is held.
2. The status of holding one's position on a permanent basis without periodic contract renewals: a teacher granted tenure on a faculty.

Tenure as IAFG used it doesn't mean what you think it means. You should really sit in on a basic SAT vocabulary class, so you could learn how words work.

bhan87
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby bhan87 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Legacy Rabbit wrote:Yes, it is clearly quantified you hold "tenure" at TLS, good for you. However, you should sit in an intro to logic class, so you could learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones. Heck, there will be multiple chapters in the class text and a professor, so how the bold is beyond stupid is on you.

IAFG wrote:
Legacy Rabbit wrote:IAFG,

The bolded is beyond stupid?
Take a break from your 3+ year, amost 9000 posts at TLS, and sit in an intro to logic class, so you may learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones.



There are so many things wrong with this argument I can't believe you're actually taking the position that phil majors have a superior ability to argue. First of all, legal arguments are not logically complex. Second, you're making an ad hominem attack based on my post count and tenure here. Third, you have no evidence at all to support your ultimate contention that phil majors make better lawyers. In fact, the Michigan study on URMs being peer practitioners after being lesser LSAT scorers and academic achievers is a pretty fatal blow.

But you're right that you're more likely to get a 158 than a different major so... enjoy that?


Hooboy... Okay kid... First off, calm the eff down... Second, sorry, but you're simply not qualified to make a judgment call on this issue till you've actually gone through law school. I can tell you I've taken an Intro to Logic class (a whole series in fact). Not only that, I went on to take Advanced Logic classes for fun (also to stack up A's for my inevitable descent into law school). 1. IAFG is absolutely right that you're making an idiotic ad hominem attack. 2. The stuff you learn in those philosophy classes are actually not that helpful. Your ability to do convoluted logic proofs =/= your ability to do well in law school courses. Yes, some basic level of logic is helpful, but only in the sense that a smart car frame design is helpful to a race car. The engine and other internal mechanics are going to be far more important factors. In the case of law classes, your ability to draw analogies and analyze how an exam fact pattern fits into the scheme of seemingly contradictory caselaw, combined with your ability to find some sort of semi-hidden insight the professor is looking to award with more points is going to be FAR more important than your ability to point out flaws in logical reasoning. I would go so far as to say that understanding flaws in logical reasoning is only really helpful when you're reading through cases (in which case you can question a party's argument or perhaps even the judge's conclusion). But even then, these logic flaws are going to be pretty obvious to most people who get into law school and will likely be discussed in class (not much of an advantage there).

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dr123
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby dr123 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:23 pm

Tushbush wrote:Bullshit. Sitting in a class for 4 months getting first hand experience>>>lurking on TLS reading posts created by people who have extremely exaggerated their LSAT scores and gpa.


lol

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IAFG
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:35 pm

Legacy Rabbit wrote:Yes, it is clearly quantified you hold "tenure" at TLS, good for you. However, you should sit in an intro to logic class, so you could learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones. Heck, there will be multiple chapters in the class text and a professor, so how the bold is beyond stupid is on you.

You are exactly the kind of punk who ends up like this. If you really believe an intro to logic class would help someone be a better law student or lawyer, you are going to be sorely disappointed by law school and legal practice.

coldweather
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby coldweather » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:51 pm

Bottom line- pre law program will not boost your application. From a practical standpoint, major in the hard sciences (engineering, physics, bio...) if your good at them because it will ultimately give you other options after ug and maybe after law school. Accounting, finance and Econ would be a good second choice.

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Legacy Rabbit
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby Legacy Rabbit » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:00 pm

IAFG,
You fun character. Now you are calling me a punk, seriously mean and unncessary. If you scroll up, you will see I typed. I never said an intro to logic class would make someone a better law student or lawyer. I said that you need to sit in an intro to logic class because you called the bolded statement stupid.


IAFG wrote:
Legacy Rabbit wrote:Yes, it is clearly quantified you hold "tenure" at TLS, good for you. However, you should sit in an intro to logic class, so you could learn how to argue and distinguish bad arguments from good ones. Heck, there will be multiple chapters in the class text and a professor, so how the bold is beyond stupid is on you.

You are exactly the kind of punk who ends up like this. If you really believe an intro to logic class would help someone be a better law student or lawyer, you are going to be sorely disappointed by law school and legal practice.

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John Mill
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby John Mill » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:08 pm

Legacy Rabbit wrote:IAFG,
You fun character. Now you are calling me a punk, seriously mean and unncessary. If you scroll up, you will see I typed. I never said an intro to logic class would make someone a better law student or lawyer. I said that you need to sit in an intro to logic class because you called the bolded statement stupid.

Dude quit while your ahead...

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vpintz
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Re: Pre law programs during undergrad

Postby vpintz » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:13 pm

John Mill wrote:
Legacy Rabbit wrote:IAFG,
You fun character. Now you are calling me a punk, seriously mean and unncessary. If you scroll up, you will see I typed. I never said an intro to logic class would make someone a better law student or lawyer. I said that you need to sit in an intro to logic class because you called the bolded statement stupid.

Dude quit while your ahead...

srsly. lol just lol




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