For NYC Biglaw...

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:43 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:I know Penn doesn't have a reported median, but I've seen before that it's somewhere around a 3.3 from Penn students on these boards. Is that relatively accurate?

Nevermind, I was able to find the thread:
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186258&hilit=3.3+median+penn wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
dabomb75 wrote:There were a couple of posts in the last 2 years' OCI threads that estimated the following rankings based on GPA:

3.3 = median

3.5 = top 33%

3.7 = top 10%

Not sure exactly how accurate that is, but just eye-balling it it doesn't really seem wrong and gives a good starting place to work from.


I think the median is a bit lower, but that's what I think. I also think the middle 20-25% is probably within 0.1, so finding a median is probably not all that helpful. The individual grades may actually be more important for people with the usual spread of A- to B grades.

I think median hovers closer to a 3.25 (or about 3 B+'s and a B).

So Penn's median, according to Penn students in that thread, is somewhere in the range of 3.25-3.3? And a 3.7 is somewhere around the top 10%?

If that's the case, Penn's ~3.75 average offer GPA for Cleary (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=187816&start=25) means Penn's average offer GPA at Cleary is within the top 10%. If that's the case, Penn's "even higher than 3.75" average offer GPA for DPW (same source) means Penn's average offer GPA at DPW is well into the top 10%. If that's the case, Penn's 3.5 average offer GPA for Weil (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=188433) means Penn's average offer GPA at Weil is top 1/3.

I get that Michigan's median GPA is around a 3.22 compared to Penn's 3.25-3.3 (and, similarly, top 10% after 1L is probably around a 3.7 or 3.75), but I would realllllllly love to hear how people still think Penn has an advantage for any given individual targeting NYC. Don't throw NLJ stats out - I couldn't care less about data that doesn't take into account an infinite number of variables. There truly is only one form of legitimate data to look at that to determine how any single individual targeting NYC will fare at these schools: How far into a school's class various firms will go relative to at other schools. Until I noticed these posts from Penn students, we just haven't ever had that information available and we were required to extrapolate from the limited data we did have. Based on TLS's common wisdom that Penn is in another league from MVB, one would expect that Penn would not merely be on par with the other schools in that tier, but rather that firms would actively recruit from deeper in Penn's class.

Now that we have this information, though, it shatters the "Penn >>> MVB" argument.

09042014
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:56 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:I get that Michigan's median GPA is around a 3.22 compared to Penn's 3.25-3.3 (and, similarly, top 10% after 1L is probably around a 3.7 or 3.75), but I would realllllllly love to hear how people still think Penn has an advantage for any given individual targeting NYC. Don't throw NLJ stats out - I couldn't care less about data that doesn't take into account an infinite number of variables. There truly is only one form of legitimate data to look at that to determine how any single individual targeting NYC will fare at these schools: How far into a school's class various firms will go relative to at other schools. Until I noticed these posts from Penn students, we just haven't ever had that information available and we were required to extrapolate from the limited data we did have. Based on TLS's common wisdom that Penn is in another league from MVB, one would expect that Penn would not merely be on par with the other schools in that tier, but rather that firms would actively recruit from deeper in Penn's class.

Now that we have this information, though, it shatters the "Penn >>> MVB" argument.


NU's Data from Class of 2013

Cleary = 3.81 ~ top 15%
DPW = 3.83 ~top 15%
Weil = 3.61 ~ top 30-35%

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:58 pm

CCN > N > MVPB > DCG

previous mini-tiers SHATTERED

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:00 am

IAFG wrote:CCN > N > MVPB > DCG

previous mini-tiers SHATTERED


TWIST the N in CCN is NORTHWESTERN

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:02 am

It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:02 am

Desert Fox wrote:It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

I've been saying this a long time but it makes MVP bros too butthurt for it to be the CW.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:06 am

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

I've been saying this a long time but it makes MVP bros too butthurt for it to be the CW.


I also think that outside of NYC V20, CCN isn't really a thing either.

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Bronte
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Bronte » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:27 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

I've been saying this a long time but it makes MVP bros too butthurt for it to be the CW.


I'm an MVP bro, and I've been saying it a long time too.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

I've been saying this a long time but it makes MVP bros too butthurt for it to be the CW.


I also think that outside of NYC V20, CCN isn't really a thing either.


Well sure. Once you take the top 35% of the class out of the equation, the T-14 isn't really a thing either.

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:53 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

I've been saying this a long time but it makes MVP bros too butthurt for it to be the CW.


I also think that outside of NYC V20, CCN isn't really a thing either.


Well sure. Once you take the top 35% of the class out of the equation, the T-14 isn't really a thing either.

Right. V20 hires the lion's share ITE. Pretty important consideration.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:05 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

I've been saying this a long time but it makes MVP bros too butthurt for it to be the CW.


I also think that outside of NYC V20, CCN isn't really a thing either.


Well sure. Once you take the top 35% of the class out of the equation, the T-14 isn't really a thing either.


True, but a lot of people on TLS talk about the chances you get big law in terms or percents. So if CCN only happens at V20 in NYC, while that's great for those who can get it, it's not really useful to those without the grades. So somewhere like NYU might increase the chances that Paul Weiss will hire you, your chances of striking out are really different than bros at UVA or NW.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:It would be surprised if firms really looked at any of the lower t14 any differently.

I agree with you - I doubt they make any distinctions except for small preferences at individual firms that almost certainly even out across the board. I just think it's about time for the Penn trolling on TLS to quiet down a bit.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby NightmanCometh » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:30 pm

Out of T11-14 (Duke Georgetown Northwestern Cornell), would it be safe to say that Cornell performs strongest in the NYC market? Maybe some could make the case for Northwestern, but surely Cornell>Duke+Georgetown due to its NY ties? Asking for ED purposes.

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:32 pm

NightmanCometh wrote:Out of T11-14 (Duke Georgetown Northwestern Cornell), would it be safe to say that Cornell performs strongest in the NYC market? Maybe some could make the case for Northwestern, but surely Cornell>Duke+Georgetown due to its NY ties? Asking for ED purposes.

The best way to find out is to look at CB GPA medians from those schools with some guidance about what those class ranks are and look for patterns. The shittiest way to find out is assume self-selection isn't having a big impact and that more Cornellians go to NY because more can.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby NightmanCometh » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:38 pm

IAFG wrote:
NightmanCometh wrote:Out of T11-14 (Duke Georgetown Northwestern Cornell), would it be safe to say that Cornell performs strongest in the NYC market? Maybe some could make the case for Northwestern, but surely Cornell>Duke+Georgetown due to its NY ties? Asking for ED purposes.

The best way to find out is to look at CB GPA medians from those schools with some guidance about what those class ranks are and look for patterns. The shittiest way to find out is assume self-selection isn't having a big impact and that more Cornellians go to NY because more can.


Good point, thanks. I have just heard so much talk (on this forum) about importance of the law school's ties to the state, etc. So there are no state quotas and such, right? Like, a firm does not say, "we want to hire X number of ppl from NY schools before we start looking at other states". Excuse the ignorance.

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moonman157
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby moonman157 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:41 pm

IAFG wrote:
NightmanCometh wrote:Out of T11-14 (Duke Georgetown Northwestern Cornell), would it be safe to say that Cornell performs strongest in the NYC market? Maybe some could make the case for Northwestern, but surely Cornell>Duke+Georgetown due to its NY ties? Asking for ED purposes.

The best way to find out is to look at CB GPA medians from those schools with some guidance about what those class ranks are and look for patterns. The shittiest way to find out is assume self-selection isn't having a big impact and that more Cornellians go to NY because more can.


Where would one find this information? This is extremely relevant to my interests. Thanks!

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:31 pm

NightmanCometh wrote:
IAFG wrote:
NightmanCometh wrote:Out of T11-14 (Duke Georgetown Northwestern Cornell), would it be safe to say that Cornell performs strongest in the NYC market? Maybe some could make the case for Northwestern, but surely Cornell>Duke+Georgetown due to its NY ties? Asking for ED purposes.

The best way to find out is to look at CB GPA medians from those schools with some guidance about what those class ranks are and look for patterns. The shittiest way to find out is assume self-selection isn't having a big impact and that more Cornellians go to NY because more can.


Good point, thanks. I have just heard so much talk (on this forum) about importance of the law school's ties to the state, etc. So there are no state quotas and such, right? Like, a firm does not say, "we want to hire X number of ppl from NY schools before we start looking at other states". Excuse the ignorance.

I don't think the quota issue is a particularly big deal in the lower T14. Some firms seem to prefer some schools, others prefer others, it seems to shake out similarly for everyone.

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:32 pm

moonman157 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
NightmanCometh wrote:Out of T11-14 (Duke Georgetown Northwestern Cornell), would it be safe to say that Cornell performs strongest in the NYC market? Maybe some could make the case for Northwestern, but surely Cornell>Duke+Georgetown due to its NY ties? Asking for ED purposes.

The best way to find out is to look at CB GPA medians from those schools with some guidance about what those class ranks are and look for patterns. The shittiest way to find out is assume self-selection isn't having a big impact and that more Cornellians go to NY because more can.


Where would one find this information? This is extremely relevant to my interests. Thanks!

You gotta have an in with a current student because this information is definitely not public.

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BruceWayne
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:True, but a lot of people on TLS talk about the chances you get big law in terms or percents. So if CCN only happens at V20 in NYC, while that's great for those who can get it, it's not really useful to those without the grades. So somewhere like NYU might increase the chances that Paul Weiss will hire you, your chances of striking out are really different than bros at UVA or NW.


Anyone who has actually been through OCI etc. and seen GPA charts knows this. It isn't new info even though there are several posters on here who practically have an aneurism whenever it's mentioned. The bold truth is that once you hit the median or below these big firms really don't care or differentiate based on what top 14 you go to unless that top 14 is HYS. Once you hit the median on down factors specific to that person are going to be the main determining factor in whether they get a firm job ( where they are from, if that area is in the same region as their top 14, work experience, connections, patent etc.). The main people screaming otherwise are 1Ls/0Ls and people at various schools within the top 14 who pulled high grades.

And those GPA callback numbers flight of the earls posted pretty much require anyone going wild with Penn getting special tier placing look ridiculous. Those are the same type of numbers you see at UVA, Michigan, and NU. Frankly, it's kind of amazing how in line the GPA's are across the different schools. Even with different curves the firms are still hiring people with essentially equivalent GPA's.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:50 pm

NightmanCometh wrote:Out of T11-14 (Duke Georgetown Northwestern Cornell), would it be safe to say that Cornell performs strongest in the NYC market? Maybe some could make the case for Northwestern, but surely Cornell>Duke+Georgetown due to its NY ties? Asking for ED purposes.

The only Cornell GPA offer data I've seen is a 3.81 average for Skadden and a 3.74 average for Paul Weiss (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=188613). Even with a 3.35 median, that's probably an average within the top 10% for Skadden and I would imagine fairly close to there for Paul Weiss.

If Duke and Northwestern aren't placing at least that well (and, more than likely, better), I would be quite surprised.




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