For NYC Biglaw...

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Chickensoup
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For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:58 am

I imagine the tiers go something like this:

I. Yale, Harvard

II. Columbia, Stanford, NYU

III. Penn, Chicago, Cornell

IV. Every other T14

V. Fordham

Any other school is a complete crapshoot.

Would you imagine this is accurate? Is it ridiculous to say that Cornell is better than anything other than HYSCCNP for NYC?

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:00 am

The fact that many people go to a certain city from a certain school is only so helpful in understanding how many people from that school could have gone to that city.

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Chickensoup
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:03 am

IAFG wrote:The fact that many people go to a certain city from a certain school is only so helpful in understanding how many people from that school could have gone to that city.


Yes, but surely firms adjust to this. Are many NY firms going to attend OCI at a campus where students traditionally avoid NY?

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:08 am

Chickensoup wrote:
IAFG wrote:The fact that many people go to a certain city from a certain school is only so helpful in understanding how many people from that school could have gone to that city.


Yes, but surely firms adjust to this. Are many NY firms going to attend OCI at a campus where students traditionally avoid NY?

Put simply, yes those firms come anyway, yes they hire even when they don't come, and I sincerely doubt that firms ding someone for attending Michigan/NU/UVA over Cornell. You can get a feel for this by inspecting the GPA medians for a few different schools (though these are hard to track down as they're not public). You'll quickly be underwhelmed by this sort of mini-tiering when you see that most firms view the various non T6 schools as peers.

09042014
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 09042014 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:37 am

Chickensoup wrote:
IAFG wrote:The fact that many people go to a certain city from a certain school is only so helpful in understanding how many people from that school could have gone to that city.


Yes, but surely firms adjust to this. Are many NY firms going to attend OCI at a campus where students traditionally avoid NY?


There really isn't a T14 where the students avoid NYC firms.

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Chickensoup
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:57 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
IAFG wrote:The fact that many people go to a certain city from a certain school is only so helpful in understanding how many people from that school could have gone to that city.


Yes, but surely firms adjust to this. Are many NY firms going to attend OCI at a campus where students traditionally avoid NY?


There really isn't a T14 where the students avoid NYC firms.


Yes, but there are stark differences between Berkeley (5% of students chose NY) and Columbia (60% of students chose NY). It wouldn't make sense if the same amount of NY recruiters went to Berkeley's OCI as Columbia's.

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:58 am

Okay but that's not a very important metric if a top 1/3 person at Berkeley can plausibly bid V20s.

Why don't you pull the OCI attendee list from a Boalt student and see if your theory holds any water.

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Chickensoup
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:59 am

IAFG wrote:Okay but that's not a very important metric if a top 1/3 person at Berkeley can plausibly bid V20s.


What does that mean -- bid V20s? I'm a little unfamiliar with the lingo.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 09042014 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:20 am

Chickensoup wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
IAFG wrote:The fact that many people go to a certain city from a certain school is only so helpful in understanding how many people from that school could have gone to that city.


Yes, but surely firms adjust to this. Are many NY firms going to attend OCI at a campus where students traditionally avoid NY?


There really isn't a T14 where the students avoid NYC firms.


Yes, but there are stark differences between Berkeley (5% of students chose NY) and Columbia (60% of students chose NY). It wouldn't make sense if the same amount of NY recruiters went to Berkeley's OCI as Columbia's.


5% is 15 people. About enough to fill a day's interview schedule. And I'm sure plenty of people are interested in V10 in NYC, even if they'd prefer elsewhere.

And I'm pretty sure it's more than 5% on average. 2011 was that low, but 2010 was 13%

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 2014 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:59 am

This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby sapien » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:45 am

I'm sure the list has other problems, but I stopped reading after this.

Chickensoup wrote:I imagine the tiers go something like this:
I. Yale, Harvard

II. Columbia, Stanford, NYU


I would definitely put Stanford above Columbia and NYU for this. I'd put it above Harvard, too, but I don't think there's as big of a gap there. So maybe something like Y>S>H>>C/N.

Basically, Stanford's prestige, small size, and students' relative lack of interest in NYC biglaw makes SLS much more desirable to firm recruiters than either Columbia and NYU. And its tiny class size makes it a better bet than Harvard for people with mediocre grades, who can seem pretty unappealing when compared with the masses of higher-achieving classmates gunning for NYC biglaw during OCI. Also, there's a reason that very few Stanford grads work at lower-tier biglaw firms in NYC (aside from the occasional partner who lateraled in from a fancier place), and it's not because they can't get the jobs.

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dingbat
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby dingbat » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:17 am

If you really want to get pedantic, there's also a sixth tier, with schools like Boston, GW and Vanderbilt, where top students should be able to get NY if they want it, possibly also including Cardozo (places approximately 10%-15% in NY biglaw each year), before every other school, where it's virtually impossible to get NY biglaw without being one of the top 5 people in the class (and even then it'd be a struggle).

But seriously, stop overthinking it. For NYC biglaw, HYS should be your reach, blanket the rest of the T14 and have Fordham as your safety.

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Chickensoup
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:16 pm

2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.


Cornell has OCI in Manhattan, so I'd say it's a little more convenient than Chicago.

Idk about Stanford. I'm sure those people would have no trouble getting NY biglaw if they had decent grades. But you have to admit--even a big city like NY can be a bit provincial. I know plenty of professionals in NY who would look down on schools like Duke or even Stanford because they are not Ivy league or close to NYC. Not saying this is common but it does exist.

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dingbat
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby dingbat » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:19 pm

Chickensoup wrote: I know plenty of professionals in NY who would look down on schools like Duke or even Stanford because they are not Ivy league or close to NYC. Not saying this is common but it does exist.

Some professionals look down on Yale for not being Harvard - doesn't mean a Yale grad can't get a biglaw job, just that that professional has issues

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby moonman157 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:26 pm

2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.


This is obviously a difficult question to answer, but would you rather be gunning for NYC biglaw from UChi or NYU? NYU seems to be the obvious answer, but UChi has a much smaller class size and a fewer percentage of those students competing with each other for NYC.

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Xifeng
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Xifeng » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:41 pm

moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.


This is obviously a difficult question to answer, but would you rather be gunning for NYC biglaw from UChi or NYU? NYU seems to be the obvious answer, but UChi has a much smaller class size and a fewer percentage of those students competing with each other for NYC.


It's definitely easy/doable to get NYC biglaw from UChicago. A lot of the class of 2014 is headed to NYC for SAs this summer, and I don't know of anyone who wanted NYC but didn't get it. But bidding competition wasn't crazy fierce like it was for some Chicago/DC/etc. firms. Obviously, NYU is fine, too.

Basically if you want NYC biglaw, go to whichever school you like the most/get the most $$ from. You'll be fine.

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Chickensoup
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:51 pm

Xifeng wrote:
moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.


This is obviously a difficult question to answer, but would you rather be gunning for NYC biglaw from UChi or NYU? NYU seems to be the obvious answer, but UChi has a much smaller class size and a fewer percentage of those students competing with each other for NYC.


It's definitely easy/doable to get NYC biglaw from UChicago. A lot of the class of 2014 is headed to NYC for SAs this summer, and I don't know of anyone who wanted NYC but didn't get it. But bidding competition wasn't crazy fierce like it was for some Chicago/DC/etc. firms. Obviously, NYU is fine, too.

Basically if you want NYC biglaw, go to whichever school you like the most/get the most $$ from. You'll be fine.


Any T14 will be fine? Or NYU v. Chicago, either choice will be fine?

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Xifeng » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:27 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
Xifeng wrote:
moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.


This is obviously a difficult question to answer, but would you rather be gunning for NYC biglaw from UChi or NYU? NYU seems to be the obvious answer, but UChi has a much smaller class size and a fewer percentage of those students competing with each other for NYC.


It's definitely easy/doable to get NYC biglaw from UChicago. A lot of the class of 2014 is headed to NYC for SAs this summer, and I don't know of anyone who wanted NYC but didn't get it. But bidding competition wasn't crazy fierce like it was for some Chicago/DC/etc. firms. Obviously, NYU is fine, too.

Basically if you want NYC biglaw, go to whichever school you like the most/get the most $$ from. You'll be fine.


Any T14 will be fine? Or NYU v. Chicago, either choice will be fine?


Any T6 is 100% fine. I don't know too much about the rest, but NYC is the biggest legal market in the country so I'd imagine you'd be fine. And remember, you can always (and should) massmail anyway. And NYC firms don't really care about ties* very much, so that's not a problem.

*This doesn't mean that you shouldn't have a general narrative about why you want to work there (city, firm, etc.)

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.


Cornell has OCI in Manhattan, so I'd say it's a little more convenient than Chicago.

Idk about Stanford. I'm sure those people would have no trouble getting NY biglaw if they had decent grades. But you have to admit--even a big city like NY can be a bit provincial. I know plenty of professionals in NY who would look down on schools like Duke or even Stanford because they are not Ivy league or close to NYC. Not saying this is common but it does exist.

Listen, you are blindly speculating about a variable that is known. Can we imagine a world where NY firms don't recruit at schools that are inconvenient to travel to, like those Ann Arbor and Chicago and Palo Alto? Sure. Is it an issue? We know it isn't. The firms come anyway. It's right on their NALP forms. Furthermore, even when they don't come, they still consider students who reach out to them. For example, WLRK doesn't come to NU but does hire a student every year or so (similar to peer schools).

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Chickensoup
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:39 pm

Listen, you are blindly speculating about a variable that is known. Can we imagine a world where NY firms don't recruit at schools that are inconvenient to travel to, like those Ann Arbor and Chicago and Palo Alto? Sure. Is it an issue? We know it isn't. The firms come anyway. It's right on their NALP forms. Furthermore, even when they don't come, they still consider students who reach out to them. For example, WLRK doesn't come to NU but does hire a student every year or so (similar to peer schools).


I'm not saying that NY firms don't come to schools out west. I just doubt that the same amount of NY firms come to Stanford/Berkeley/Chicago/NU/Duke/UVA/Michigan/Gtown as NYU/Columbia/Penn/Cornell.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby Xifeng » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:42 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
Listen, you are blindly speculating about a variable that is known. Can we imagine a world where NY firms don't recruit at schools that are inconvenient to travel to, like those Ann Arbor and Chicago and Palo Alto? Sure. Is it an issue? We know it isn't. The firms come anyway. It's right on their NALP forms. Furthermore, even when they don't come, they still consider students who reach out to them. For example, WLRK doesn't come to NU but does hire a student every year or so (similar to peer schools).


I'm not saying that NY firms don't come to schools out west. I just doubt that the same amount of NY firms come to Stanford/Berkeley/Chicago/NU/Duke/UVA/Gtown as NYU/Columbia/Penn/Cornell.


1. A lot of times the same number will come, they just won't send as many interviewers/stay for as long because demand for the spots is lower (I have a friend at Penn and when we compared NYC interview slots, they had more because more Penn students want to go to NYC)

2. You can still mail them applications. OCI isn't (and you shouldn't think of it as) your only shot at an SA.

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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby FlanAl » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:46 pm

2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.

thats why they just interview us in NYC, probably more convenient than going to chicago or ann arbor

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IAFG
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:52 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
Listen, you are blindly speculating about a variable that is known. Can we imagine a world where NY firms don't recruit at schools that are inconvenient to travel to, like those Ann Arbor and Chicago and Palo Alto? Sure. Is it an issue? We know it isn't. The firms come anyway. It's right on their NALP forms. Furthermore, even when they don't come, they still consider students who reach out to them. For example, WLRK doesn't come to NU but does hire a student every year or so (similar to peer schools).


I'm not saying that NY firms don't come to schools out west. I just doubt that the same amount of NY firms come to Stanford/Berkeley/Chicago/NU/Duke/UVA/Michigan/Gtown as NYU/Columbia/Penn/Cornell.

The exact same amount? Probably not. All the ones that hire big summer classes? Pretty much. Enough to fill up your whole OCI schedule? DEFINITELY.

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2014
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby 2014 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:03 pm

moonman157 wrote:
2014 wrote:This might be homerism, but I would absolutely rather be at UChi gunning for NYC than Cornell. Self selection is definitely a thing. It's not like it's even significantly more inconvenient for a firm to interview in Chicago or Berkeley or Ann Arbor or wherever compared to Ithaca.


This is obviously a difficult question to answer, but would you rather be gunning for NYC biglaw from UChi or NYU? NYU seems to be the obvious answer, but UChi has a much smaller class size and a fewer percentage of those students competing with each other for NYC.

If you have a preference for certain firms the answer is probably NYU since in a given year there are firms that take like 15+ NYU 2Ls and zero to two UChi ones. I'd probably feel better gunning for any market paying firm in NYC from Chicago though for the reasons you pointed out. Regardless it is certainly close and there probably isn't a right answer without being in the heads of the interviewers.

While I'll still admit I'm probably biased, I can't in good faith sign onto Cornell and U.Chi being peer schools for NYC though. I stand corrected on the interviewing location thing, but unless you are specifically talking about the year Cornell inexplicably killed it, I think UChi kids gunning for NY Biglaw have it much easier.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: For NYC Biglaw...

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:50 pm

I know Penn doesn't have a reported median, but I've seen before that it's somewhere around a 3.3 from Penn students on these boards. Is that relatively accurate?




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