hare-brained scheme to get off UVA waiting list Forum

[samn]

Hi TLSers,

First, some info about me: I'm a non-traditional applicant (I've been out of school for three years, am married, have an adorable one-year-old son, and work at a nonprofit in NYC). I plan to attend law school in Fall 2013. I'm a reverse-splitter with an LSAC UGPA of 3.92 and an LSAT score of 162. I studied philosophy and classics during undergrad. My top choice is UVA School of Law, but I was recently waitlisted after doing a binding early decision.

Now for my question:

I know that the waitlist for UVA is more or less a soft rejection, but hope springs eternal! In part in order to increase my chances, I am considering writing and submitting a paper to a philosophy conference as an unaffiliated thinker. I believe this is a good idea for two additional reasons: 1.) I still enjoy reading, thinking, and talking about philosophy, and I would like to write about it again; and 2.) UVA has a dual-degree program in which I could earn a JD and a Masters in Philosophy at the same time – a perfect program for me. To have any chance of getting accepted to their philosophy program, however, I think I need to have a recent paper.

My thinking is that this will make me seem like a self-motivated, intellectually curious person (I'd like to think that this appearance is also a fact!).

So, TLS-ers, what do you think? So crazy it just might work? Or just so crazy?

For the record, I think I would enjoy doing this even if nothing comes of it (especially if my paper is accepted, and I get to go to a conference). HOWEVER, if it would do nothing to increase my chances of getting off the waitlist (as opposed to at least a little something), it might not be worth the time investment.

Thanks for your opinions.

P.S. If the consensus is that it would help at least a little, I would also appreciate anyone's help in finding a conference that accepts papers for blind review...

[Br3v]

Hi TLSers,

First, some info about me: I'm a non-traditional applicant (I've been out of school for three years, am married, have an adorable one-year-old son, and work at a nonprofit in NYC). I plan to attend law school in Fall 2013. I'm a reverse-splitter with an LSAC UGPA of 3.92 and an LSAT score of 162. I studied philosophy and classics during undergrad. My top choice is UVA School of Law, but I was recently waitlisted after doing a binding early decision.

Now for my question:

I know that the waitlist for UVA is more or less a soft rejection, but hope springs eternal! In part in order to increase my chances, I am considering writing and submitting a paper to a philosophy conference as an unaffiliated thinker. I believe this is a good idea for two additional reasons: 1.) I still enjoy reading, thinking, and talking about philosophy, and I would like to write about it again; and 2.) UVA has a dual-degree program in which I could earn a JD and a Masters in Philosophy at the same time – a perfect program for me. To have any chance of getting accepted to their philosophy program, however, I think I need to have a recent paper.

My thinking is that this will make me seem like a self-motivated, intellectually curious person (I'd like to think that this appearance is also a fact!).

So, TLS-ers, what do you think? So crazy it just might work? Or just so crazy?

For the record, I think I would enjoy doing this even if nothing comes of it (especially if my paper is accepted, and I get to go to a conference). HOWEVER, if it would do nothing to increase my chances of getting off the waitlist (as opposed to at least a little something), it might not be worth the time investment.

Thanks for your opinions.

P.S. If the consensus is that it would help at least a little, I would also appreciate anyone's help in finding a conference that accepts papers for blind review...

Don't think it would help chances much (maybe if its you and 4 others to chose from and you tell them hey look what I did to try to get in!) but that's a rare possibility.

You say you'd want to write it regardless for fun, and it sure can't hurt you, so I say do it.

[samn]

Oh, and also I was planning on telling them about it in a LOCI, if it gets accepted and I present it... I guess that's important to mention. Also, thanks for your input, Br3v!

[rad lulz]

Retake the LSAT.

[hichvichwoh]

Retake the LSAT.

This is the only scheme you should consider, hare-brained or no.

[twenty]

Nah, if UVA WL'd you off an ED as a reverse splitter, you need to retake the LSAT. Invest the time you would have spent on the paper working on the December and then potentially Febuary LSAT.

[Puffin]

Retake for UVA $$$$. No point in going at sticker when you can go for way less if you study more for one test.

[paratactical]

Nah, if UVA WL'd you off an ED as a reverse splitter, you need to retake the LSAT. Invest the time you would have spent on the paper working on the December and then potentially Febuary LSAT.

This is much more likely to get you in than a paper.

[samn]

Thanks for the advice, all. As someone with a young family, I'm not sure that I'm up for buying a $300 raffle ticket (that is how much the LSAT costs, right? I don't remember). Even if I improve my score by 8 points (statistically unlikely), I'm still not sure that UVA will take anyone off the waitlist at all... still thinking, though. This is good food for thought, especially the prospect of getting scholarship $$$ to UVA. I've been accepted to William and Mary already and anticipate getting into Washington and Lee. I don't really want to work in biglaw...

Does anyone know what kind of score I'd have to make to have a chance?

[09042014]

Thanks for the advice, all. As someone with a young family, I'm not sure that I'm up for buying a $300 raffle ticket (that is how much the LSAT costs, right? I don't remember). Even if I improve my score by 8 points (statistically unlikely), I'm still not sure that UVA will take anyone off the waitlist at all... still thinking, though. This is good food for thought, especially the prospect of getting scholarship $$$ to UVA. I've been accepted to William and Mary already and anticipate getting into Washington and Lee. I don't really want to work in biglaw...

Does anyone know what kind of score I'd have to make to have a chance?

1) you can reapply.

2) Even a couple LSAT points makes huge $$$

Stop being a pussy and retake.

[Tiago Splitter]

1. LSAT scores are not determined by random chance. Hoping to get a good job out of William and Mary or Washington and Lee is much more like playing the lottery than retaking the LSAT.

2. If you didn't want BigLaw, why did you apply ED to UVA?

3. An 8 point improvement on the LSAT will save you somewhere around $175,000 if you end up at UVA vs. getting in off the waitlist.

[Tom Joad]

I'm not sure that I'm up for buying a $300 raffle ticket

It really isn't if you can do math. Weighted for risk, law school (a T14) pays for itself in just a few years of big law, and everything after that you're coming out ahead.

lol I would love to see your "math" for this

So let's start with this data: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

52% in $160k jobs or federal clerkships. Payoff, $450k after-tax including shitty bonus after four years.
7% in $140-160k jobs (probably $145k). Payoff (assuming typical $145k scale and secondary-market tax rate), $400k after-tax.
9% in $100k-$140k jobs. Payoff (assuming $120k average), $320k after-tax.
4% in permanent PI. Payoff (amortizing loan forgiveness and assuming $50k/year salary), $220k after-tax.
28% in other things. Let's assume doc review at $45k/year for simplicity. $130k after-tax.

Weighted average of the above is $336k return over four years.

Now, assume our baseline job is $45k/year, or about $32k/year take-home, or $130k over four years. You're up roughly $200k over what you'd have in the base line, or basically even accounting for loans ($230k full freight - $30k SA take-home thanks to ridic favorable tax situation).

Future classes will have higher tuition, but also higher employment than C/2011.

1. Study hard and smart and you can get way better odds on your raffle ticket.
2. If you win the raffle you could be +$200k over 7 years.

[EvilClinton]

Retake the LSAT.

[TooOld4This]

Thanks for the advice, all. As someone with a young family, I'm not sure that I'm up for buying a $300 raffle ticket (that is how much the LSAT costs, right? I don't remember). Even if I improve my score by 8 points (statistically unlikely), I'm still not sure that UVA will take anyone off the waitlist at all... still thinking, though. This is good food for thought, especially the prospect of getting scholarship $$$ to UVA. I've been accepted to William and Mary already and anticipate getting into Washington and Lee. I don't really want to work in biglaw...

Does anyone know what kind of score I'd have to make to have a chance?

You have a high enough GPA to recognize that this is a completely stupid argument.

I have no idea how much the LSAT costs any more, but I do know that scholarship money is handed out on the basis of GPA + LSAT. Whether you end up getting into UVA or not, taking the LSAT again gives you an opportunity to go to William and Mary or Washington and Lee for free. That's right -- for less than the cost of one semester of books, you could save yourself nearly $100,000. Even if you "only" got $10,000 more in money, that seems like a pretty good investment to me.

And I have no sympathy for the young family excuse. I went straight through a very long time ago, but I found this site when a good friend who is a non-trad decided to go back to law school. Compared to going to law school with a family, studying for the LSAT is a piece of cake. Because you have a young family, you need to find the time to get your LSAT up again. Even if it means putting off law school for a year, there is no reason you should pay to go to W&M or W&L with your GPA.

Sorry this is harsh, but going to law school without retaking the LSAT again is a monumentally short-sighted decision.

[samn]

1. LSAT scores are not determined by random chance. Hoping to get a good job out of William and Mary or Washington and Lee is much more like playing the lottery than retaking the LSAT.

2. If you didn't want BigLaw, why did you apply ED to UVA?

1. I know that they're not determined by random chance, but I haven't studied for the LSAT in over a year (I got my current job right after signing up for the LSAT and had to make a two-year commitment, so I delayed the application process). Back then, I made around 165 on my practice exams, after studying for a lot longer than two months. I'm pretty confident that I could do better than that, though, and I really am not a wimp, so who knows? maybe you all are right. I am considering retaking now. One question I have about this, though: If something goes terribly wrong and I make an even lower score, could William and Mary rescind their acceptance? Surely not, right? I want to make sure I at least have nothing much to lose.

Also, how could I reapply for UVA? If you all mean waiting another year, that's not really an option for me.

2. I applied ED to UVA, 1.) because it is the perfect school for me (for many, many reasons), and 2.) I want to have options. For instance - although I know this is often a path to working in biglaw, and it wouldn't be for me - I would really like to clerk for a good judge. I would also like to have a shot of working in a public interest job that pays at least a little more than $50,000. Finally, I'm assuming that working at a small- to mid-size law firm for $70,000 to $100,000 is also easier to secure if you go to a T14. Being wealthy is a low priority for me. I want to make enough to pay off my loans without being completely screwed (I am aware that this is a higher figure than you would think...) and to be reasonably comfortable. The main reason I don't want to work in biglaw is because having some time for my family is a high priority for me.

[WanderingPondering]

Your argument for not retaking the LSAT is that you have a young family and don't want to waste the $300 on it.

That is, as everyone else can see, absurd. $100,000+ >>>>>>>$300

If you don't understand this, then you shouldn't go to law school. If you want to be a philosopher, go be a philosopher. If you want to be a lawyer, retake the damn LSAT. Stop thinking a silly "Choose me" letter will make any difference. In the time that would take, you can study your ass off for a month.

[nygrrrl]

Nah, if UVA WL'd you off an ED as a reverse splitter, you need to retake the LSAT. Invest the time you would have spent on the paper working on the December and then potentially Febuary LSAT.

This is much more likely to get you in than a paper.

This. Honestly.

[WanderingPondering]

2. I applied ED to UVA, 1.) because it is the perfect school for me (for many, many reasons), and 2.) I want to have options. For instance - although I know this is often a path to working in biglaw, and it wouldn't be for me - I would really like to clerk for a good judge. I would also like to have a shot of working in a public interest job that pays at least a little more than $50,000. Finally, I'm assuming that working at a small- to mid-size law firm for $70,000 to $100,000 is also easier to secure if you go to a T14. Being wealthy is a low priority for me. I want to make enough to pay off my loans without being completely screwed (I am aware that this is a higher figure than you would think...) and to be reasonably comfortable. The main reason I don't want to work in biglaw is because having some time for my family is a high priority for me.

Can you please give us your projected loan repayments considering the very possible scenario of working mid-law for $70k/year and having $240k debt? Also take into account cost of living and having a wife/kids.

If making money isn't important to you, why are you putting yourself in a position (sticker at UVA) that you will need to make a lot of money to pay back your loans?

I'm sorry man, it just doesn't make sense.

[Samara]

I would really like to clerk for a good judge. I would also like to have a shot of working in a public interest job that pays at least a little more than $50,000. Finally, I'm assuming that working at a small- to mid-size law firm for $70,000 to $100,000 is also easier to secure if you go to a T14. Being wealthy is a low priority for me. I want to make enough to pay off my loans without being completely screwed (I am aware that this is a higher figure than you would think...) and to be reasonably comfortable. The main reason I don't want to work in biglaw is because having some time for my family is a high priority for me.

*sigh* Let's get back to square one.

Clerking is much harder to get than biglaw.
A PI job paying more than $50k is much harder to get than biglaw.
A $70k-$100k midlaw job is much harder to get than biglaw.
Getting one of these at UVA is hard enough. Getting one of these is far more difficult at W&M or W&L.
TLS doesn't emphasize biglaw because everyone is obsessed with becoming wealthy. TLS emphasizes biglaw because it's the only way to pay down the massive debt you will incur by paying sticker in a reasonable way. If you don't want biglaw, don't pay sticker anywhere.

RETAKE THE LSAT.

ETA: If you can't afford $300 and a little time to study, how the hell are you going to afford $250,000 and the work of law school?

[samn]

That is, as everyone else can see, absurd. $100,000+ >>>>>>>$300

If you don't understand this, then you shouldn't go to law school. If you want to be a philosopher, go be a philosopher. If you want to be a lawyer, retake the damn LSAT. Stop thinking a silly "Choose me" letter will make any difference. In the time that would take, you can study your ass off for a month.

Geez, don't be rude. I've said two or three times that I'm thinking about retaking the LSAT. It's not just a "silly 'choose me'" letter. It's an academic paper that I would enjoy writing anyway. And it's only $100,000+ if I make a significantly higher score with significantly less time to study than I had last time. Look, I'm up for a challenge, I actually enjoy studying for the LSAT, and I'm probably going to go for it, so stop interpreting what I'm saying as whining. But you are making a straw man argument. Also, I wasn't complaining about the time it would take to study. I don't know where you all got that.

(Can you please give us your projected loan repayments considering the very possible scenario of working mid-law for $70k/year and having $240k debt? Also take into account cost of living and having a wife/kids.)

I am capable of re-evaluating based on circumstances and new information. And I'm not completely opposed to working for biglaw for a little while... just not long term. Plus, we will likely be a two-income family. I'm still in the early stages of thinking about all of this.

[WanderingPondering]

I'm still in the early stages of thinking about all of this.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. You may be in the early stages of thinking about it, but you did already apply ED to UVA. And since you're open to working a few years in biglaw to pay down the debt, that is all fine. It seemed like you initially completely rejected the possibility of working biglaw, which would be a difficult decision given the debt of sticker price to UVA.

[twenty]

(Can you please give us your projected loan repayments considering the very possible scenario of working mid-law for $70k/year

There's basically no way this is going to happen, sorry to say. Figure you'll either be making 160k+ in biglaw, or else be making 50k... if you're incredibly lucky.

And I'm not completely opposed to working for biglaw for a little while... just not long term.

On a two income family, you'll be able to pay off debts with biglaw in 2-3 years (assuming 220k or so in loans). On top of this, biglaw gives you some pretty valuable experience that will be fairly beneficial in getting you into an in-house spot, which is usually the long-term job ex-biglawyers go for.

The thing is, you're not just over the GPA median at UVA, you're over the median at frigging Yale. If it were me, there's no way I'd settle for even William and Mary for free. Studystudystudy, nail the LSAT, retaking as many times as you need to, and then either update your apps with your new LSAT, or reapply next cycle. It's absolutely worth it to sit this cycle out if you can get your LSAT score up to the 170's. You go from paying sticker at UVA... maybe, to full ride at NYU/Penn/ED full ride at NU.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you got Harvard. But for the love of god, you have the winning lottery ticket when it comes to your GPA. A few months of studying means a huge, huge payoff down the road.

[Clarity]

Other than $160 what do you really have to lose by retaking? You already wanted to devote time to writing a paper so turn that time into studying for the LSAT instead.

[BlueJeanBaby]

Other than $160 what do you really have to lose by retaking? You already wanted to devote time to writing a paper so turn that time into studying for the LSAT instead.

He asked if getting a lower score could hurt him. OP, I have asked that question a few times. The general consensus is that retaking shouldn't hurt you. If you get something way below what you already have, like a 150, then I hear it can look quite bad. If you were to score a point or two lower, I wouldn't worry too much. Could someone link him to the LSAC statistics of retakes?

[wert3813]

.