Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

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John Mill
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Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby John Mill » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:46 am

So I'm planning on going to law school in four years. My goal is the T14, I'm doing everything I can now in undergrad to prepare myself. I'm dedicating myself 100% to my studies and giving up a social life with everybody except my fiance (who lives with me).

My goal, like that of many, is biglaw, you know the six figure corporate jobs right out of law school. I've read the many threads where people say not to go to law school for the money, and while I'm not doing it for the money, I don't want to do it without the money, if that makes any sense.

To clarify a bit, I've wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I love to debate and argue, and I've really taken to my Philosophy classes, I even still love the idea of law after I've read all the horror stories online about law school and the job market. So I know 100% its what I want to do. But at the same time I want to be able to give my future family a good life, and take care of my mother when she retires, so a big paycheck and a future with a lot of potential for advancement would help with that.

So at the moment I'm doing as much prep and planning as I can as early as I can. However I did have one question that I haven't really been able to get a clear answer on just by lurking on different forums. And that is what are the job prospects like for T14 graduates?

Some people are saying that even going to a top school you'll wind up flipping burgers to pay back your loans. Others say that you can get a job, but it likley wont be six figures. And then still others say you'll have it made in the shade and if you so much as get in.

So which is the most accurate? What are the job prospects for T14 graduates like these days?

mvpforme
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby mvpforme » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:14 am

Plenty of people at t14 schools had a social life and were big partiers in undergrad. I was myself and was accepted to several T14 (including T6). Figure out what you need to do to have good grades and do it, stay out of trouble, and start studying for the LSAT three or four months before you take it and you should be fine.

Also, to actually answer one of your questions, the job prospects vary. Anecdotally, it seems things are good at HYS, less so at CCNP, and even less so at MV, DNCG. I'm forgetting one, but things probably aren't great there either.
Last edited by mvpforme on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

badaboom61
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby badaboom61 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:22 am

Job prospects vary a lot based on a lot of things - which T14 (Yale and Georgetown have very different prospects), grades, prior work experience / resume, and interviewing ability. For a student with median grades and good interviewing skills and a solid resume from a generic T14, the job prospects for biglaw are pretty good but by no means guaranteed. An awkward kid who went straight through undergrad with mediocre grades may very likely never find decent work as a lawyer.

It's great that you know you want to be a lawyer. If you still have time, I would strongly recommend majoring in something practical, i.e., you could fall back on it to get a job if you do poorly at law school. If you do miss the biglaw boat, and you have other options, you might be better off not incurring the extra 2 years of debt. You will set yourself up for a higher chance of biglaw if you have two or three years of practical work experience after undergrad.

It's great that you're dedicating yourself to your studies and whatnot, because GPA is hugely important in law school admissions, but don't kill yourself and destroy any shred of a social life. Undergrad is fun as hell; enjoy it while you're there. You can carry a 4.0 and still have a social life.

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2014
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby 2014 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:45 am

If you are going to law school in 4 years you will be interviewing in 5 and basically nothing we say will be relevant (See how much different the economy has been at various times over the last 5 years). Just do your best in UG, enjoy it as much as you can, and lurk in the employment forums reading if you really want the info.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby rad lulz » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:13 am

John Mill wrote:
To clarify a bit, I've wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I love to debate and argue, and I've really taken to my Philosophy classes,


If this is what you've enjoyed in school, you're going to hate being a lawyer.

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John Mill
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby John Mill » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:20 am

rad lulz wrote:
John Mill wrote:
To clarify a bit, I've wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I love to debate and argue, and I've really taken to my Philosophy classes,


If this is what you've enjoyed in school, you're going to hate being a lawyer.


I know, I've heard the whole shpeal and I know that corporate law isnt exciting, and most of it doesn't take place in a courtroom, and its not what people think it is. My point with the philosophy class is that I dont mind reading endless pages of boring and difficult shit, then summarizing or analyzing it.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby rad lulz » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:24 am

John Mill wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
John Mill wrote:
To clarify a bit, I've wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I love to debate and argue, and I've really taken to my Philosophy classes,


If this is what you've enjoyed in school, you're going to hate being a lawyer.


I know, I've heard the whole shpeal and I know that corporate law isnt exciting, and most of it doesn't take place in a courtroom, and its not what people think it is. My point with the philosophy class is that I dont mind reading endless pages of boring and difficult shit, then summarizing or analyzing it.

LOL that's an even shittier reason to want to become a lawyer.

Furthermore, people who like to argue make shitty lawyers. It's a shitty trait to have, and I recommend you get over that.

It's interesting that after you heard all this and claim to know it, yet you decided not to listen.

My recommendation: go pledge a decent fraternity, slam some Nattys, and go talk to some women.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:30 am

John Mill wrote:To clarify a bit, I've wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I love to debate and argue, and I've really taken to my Philosophy classes, I even still love the idea of law after I've read all the horror stories online about law school and the job market. So I know 100% its what I want to do.

I wrote a big long response to this, but before I could post it I saw this response:

John Mill wrote:I know, I've heard the whole shpeal and I know that corporate law isnt exciting, and most of it doesn't take place in a courtroom, and its not what people think it is. My point with the philosophy class is that I dont mind reading endless pages of boring and difficult shit, then summarizing or analyzing it.

This is a much better attitude, at least. Now, on to the rest:

John Mill wrote:So at the moment I'm doing as much prep and planning as I can as early as I can. However I did have one question that I haven't really been able to get a clear answer on just by lurking on different forums. And that is what are the job prospects like for T14 graduates?

Some people are saying that even going to a top school you'll wind up flipping burgers to pay back your loans. Others say that you can get a job, but it likley wont be six figures. And then still others say you'll have it made in the shade and if you so much as get in.

So which is the most accurate? What are the job prospects for T14 graduates like these days?

Here's the rub: Job prospects in the T14 depend largely on your grades, which makes describing them to 0Ls difficult. You can't know for sure what grades you'll get, especially when you're looking at T14-caliber schools, because while your background is probably stellar, everyone's background is stellar. They take the cream of the crop of all law school applicants and then pit them together in forced-curve mortal combat. All were worthy of T14 admission, yet only half can get median-or-better grades by definition, and you can't know in advance where you'll end up. (If you could, it'd make deciding whether to go law school much easier for everyone.) The economy still hasn't recovered enough yet that BigLaw jobs are plentiful, and competition is pretty fierce for what jobs there are, so you'll need to do as much right as possible (good grades, interviewing well, applying to the right markets/firms) to actually get the job you want. It's a far from certain thing right now, and it's hard to say that it'll be better by the time you're in law school and job hunting.

If you really think you want to be a lawyer, what you should do right now (or when you graduate, if still in UG) is become a paralegal. A number of law firms hire "term" paralegals for positions of only a couple years, knowing that those people are planning to go to law school or do something else. Working in a firm will give you a really good sense of what being a lawyer is actually like, as well as substantive work experience that would likely help in the job hunt later. If you can be a paralegal for a year or two and still think you want to become a lawyer, then you can apply from there, otherwise you can reassess things and go find something else to do.

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John Mill
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby John Mill » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:39 am

rad lulz wrote:LOL that's an even shittier reason to want to become a lawyer.

Its a good job, that interests me, and I think I would be good at. Whats a good reason to you? Everybody has their own motivations for doing what they want.

Furthermore, people who like to argue make shitty lawyers. It's a shitty trait to have, and I recommend you get over that.


I cant speak to the first thing you said, but the second one was pretty dumb. People learn things from argument, one of the best things about a debate is that it challengers your views and the other persons, and most often somebody walks away having learned something. People who think that argument/debate/discussion is a bad trait are too complacent.

To be clear I don't go around instigating arguments with people, but i like to debate things, I feel like its the best way to learn something new and challenge your mind.

It's interesting that after you heard all this and claim to know it, yet you decided not to listen.


No it just didn't scare me off, I chose to simply prepare myself and plan ahead. Hence why I'm here.

vanwinkle wrote:Here's the rub: Job prospects in the T14 depend largely on your grades, which makes describing them to 0Ls difficult. You can't know for sure what grades you'll get, especially when you're looking at T14-caliber schools, because while your background is probably stellar, everyone's background is stellar. They take the cream of the crop of all law school applicants and then pit them together in forced-curve mortal combat. All were worthy of T14 admission, yet only half can get median-or-better grades by definition, and you can't know in advance where you'll end up. (If you could, it'd make deciding whether to go law school much easier for everyone.) The economy still hasn't recovered enough yet that BigLaw jobs are plentiful, and competition is pretty fierce for what jobs there are, so you'll need to do as much right as possible (good grades, interviewing well, applying to the right markets/firms) to actually get the job you want. It's a far from certain thing right now, and it's hard to say that it'll be better by the time you're in law school and job hunting.


That's kind of what Iv'e been concerned about. I guess at the moment I'm going to just try and do as well as I can in UG, and prepare for the LSATs. Ideally Im going to try for some kind of financial aid to make law school less of a risk, at the very least I have a few more years before I have to make the decision.

Thank you very much for the advice, you've given me a lot to think on. I have no doubt Ill be posting on these forums more over the next few weeks, probably years, so I will hopefully see you around :wink:

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby ajax » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:00 pm

rad lulz wrote:
John Mill wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
John Mill wrote:
To clarify a bit, I've wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I love to debate and argue, and I've really taken to my Philosophy classes,


If this is what you've enjoyed in school, you're going to hate being a lawyer.


I know, I've heard the whole shpeal and I know that corporate law isnt exciting, and most of it doesn't take place in a courtroom, and its not what people think it is. My point with the philosophy class is that I dont mind reading endless pages of boring and difficult shit, then summarizing or analyzing it.

LOL that's an even shittier reason to want to become a lawyer.

Furthermore, people who like to argue make shitty lawyers. It's a shitty trait to have, and I recommend you get over that.

It's interesting that after you heard all this and claim to know it, yet you decided not to listen.

My recommendation: go pledge a decent fraternity, slam some Nattys, and go talk to some women.


I second this recommendation.

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John Mill
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby John Mill » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:09 pm

ajax wrote:
rad lulz wrote:My recommendation: go pledge a decent fraternity, slam some Nattys, and go talk to some women.


I second this recommendation.


I third it :D

But my fiance doesn't :cry:

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby Chickensoup » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:08 pm

rad lulz wrote:
John Mill wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
John Mill wrote:
To clarify a bit, I've wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I love to debate and argue, and I've really taken to my Philosophy classes,


If this is what you've enjoyed in school, you're going to hate being a lawyer.


I know, I've heard the whole shpeal and I know that corporate law isnt exciting, and most of it doesn't take place in a courtroom, and its not what people think it is. My point with the philosophy class is that I dont mind reading endless pages of boring and difficult shit, then summarizing or analyzing it.

LOL that's an even shittier reason to want to become a lawyer.

Furthermore, people who like to argue make shitty lawyers. It's a shitty trait to have, and I recommend you get over that.

It's interesting that after you heard all this and claim to know it, yet you decided not to listen.

My recommendation: go pledge a decent fraternity, slam some Nattys, and go talk to some women.


@rad lulz -- You're a twatwad. Both those traits (arguing and reading/summarizing boring documents) are common to the daily lives of most lawyers I know, and I have worked with many. You are probably some prickish loser who never gets out of his dorm room and has NO IDEA what being a lawyer is like.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby rad lulz » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:57 pm

Chickensoup wrote:@rad lulz -- You're a twatwad. Both those traits (arguing and reading/summarizing boring documents) are common to the daily lives of most lawyers I know, and I have worked with many. You are probably some prickish loser who never gets out of his dorm room and has NO IDEA what being a lawyer is like.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby BullShitWithBravado » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:23 pm

Right now job prospects seem ok coming out of a T14, although a job is never guaranteed no matter where you go. I go to a lower T14 and most people have jobs, either in NYC or at firms in large secondary markets (e.g. Boston, LA, etc.).

Something to think about, though, is the fact that getting a job and working as a lawyer involves a fair amount of networking. I'm just pointing this out because you said that you intend to not have a social life at least for the next four years. Knowing how to talk to and connect with people is a really important skill to have, whether you're interviewing for a job or working with a client. I'm not saying that you don't have social skills, but I think that your communication/socializing skills might get rusty if you don't socialize with anyone other than your fiance for the next four years.

On a completely different note, major in econ if you can. It's probably one of the most practical undergraduate degree you can get if you're interested in law school.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:29 pm

John Mill wrote:
ajax wrote:
rad lulz wrote:My recommendation: go pledge a decent fraternity, slam some Nattys, and go talk to some women.


I second this recommendation.


I third it :D

But my fiance doesn't :cry:

I say ditch her. Party hard. Buckle down for law school and keep posting on TLS. This place is a great way to meet prestigious women.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby Deep Trench » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:35 pm

BullShitWithBravado wrote:On a completely different note, major in econ if you can. It's probably one of the most practical undergraduate degree you can get if you're interested in law school.

Econ might be a practical degree, especially for doing scholarly legal research, but major in electrical engineering if you want to maximize the chance of landing a big law job.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby IAFG » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:22 am

If you want to improve your odds of getting a job relative to your school's placement, take some time off between college and law school to work. And major in engineering.

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John Mill
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby John Mill » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:32 am

I should probably clarify what I meant when I said I would be ditching my social life with everybody except my fiance. I still talk to my close friends and hang out with them, get lunch or see movies and such. And I'm close with my family. But Iv'e just never really been that into the whole party scene. I don't really drink all that much so that takes away about 50% of the point of a college party, and I'm not single anymore so that's at least another 40% of the point.

I'll still be making time for my friends and such, but I'm not going to be getting dragged to any huge social gatherings is what I guess my point was. I have more fun chilling at the mall or something. Which I guess is the oposite of the way I was in high school when i would blow off my studies and party all the time lol.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby EvilClinton » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:49 am

John Mill wrote:I should probably clarify what I meant when I said I would be ditching my social life with everybody except my fiance. I still talk to my close friends and hang out with them, get lunch or see movies and such. And I'm close with my family. But Iv'e just never really been that into the whole party scene. I don't really drink all that much so that takes away about 50% of the point of a college party, and I'm not single anymore so that's at least another 40% of the point.

I'll still be making time for my friends and such, but I'm not going to be getting dragged to any huge social gatherings is what I guess my point was. I have more fun chilling at the mall or something. Which I guess is the oposite of the way I was in high school when i would blow off my studies and party all the time lol.

I think we have all entertained this long enough (mainly because you asked in the right way). The bottom line is you have no idea what you will be like in four years and none of us know what the job market will be like in five years. So get off TLS and enjoy your life for the next 3 years. Get good grades and come back after you start studying for the LSAT.

But seriously GTFO.

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John Mill
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby John Mill » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:38 am

Hahaha alright, sorry if I asked a pointless or unanswerable question, just figured it dosnt hurt to start planning early. Thank you everybody, most of you have given me a lot of helpful advice.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby dingbat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:41 am

Tom Joad wrote:
John Mill wrote:
ajax wrote:
rad lulz wrote:My recommendation: go pledge a decent fraternity, slam some Nattys, and go talk to some women.


I second this recommendation.


I third it :D

But my fiance doesn't :cry:

I say ditch her. Party hard. Buckle down for law school and keep posting on TLS. This place is a great way to meet prestigious and socially awkward women.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:47 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
John Mill wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
If this is what you've enjoyed in school, you're going to hate being a lawyer.


I know, I've heard the whole shpeal and I know that corporate law isnt exciting, and most of it doesn't take place in a courtroom, and its not what people think it is. My point with the philosophy class is that I dont mind reading endless pages of boring and difficult shit, then summarizing or analyzing it.

LOL that's an even shittier reason to want to become a lawyer.

Furthermore, people who like to argue make shitty lawyers. It's a shitty trait to have, and I recommend you get over that.

It's interesting that after you heard all this and claim to know it, yet you decided not to listen.

My recommendation: go pledge a decent fraternity, slam some Nattys, and go talk to some women.


@rad lulz -- You're a twatwad. Both those traits (arguing and reading/summarizing boring documents) are common to the daily lives of most lawyers I know, and I have worked with many. You are probably some prickish loser who never gets out of his dorm room and has NO IDEA what being a lawyer is like.


Oh wise 0L, please enlighten us on what being a lawyer is like. I would love to hear more.

ETA:
OP: Job prospects are still pretty good for the T14. I personally would be very cautious when it comes to paying sticker at anything besides HYS, but at most of the T14 the odds are still in your favor for getting biglaw.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby Chickensoup » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:07 pm

I've worked closely with established lawyers who were graduates of Harvard, Cornell, and Rutgers. They all argued frequently (while discussing their cases), they all read and summarized countless pages of boring shit, and they all were not miserable. Sooooooo....

In my experience, the "conventional wisdom" of TLS fails again.

Oh, and the Rutgers grad actually made a lot more than the Cornell grad. The Harvard grad was the boss of both of them, though.

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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby EvilClinton » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:13 pm

Chickensoup wrote:I've worked closely with established lawyers who were graduates of Harvard, Cornell, and Rutgers. They all argued frequently (while discussing their cases), they all read and summarized countless pages of boring shit, and they all were not miserable. Sooooooo....

In my experience, the "conventional wisdom" of TLS fails again.

Oh, and the Rutgers grad actually made a lot more than the Cornell grad. The Harvard grad was the boss of both of them, though.

Honestly your 0L experiences really don't carry much weight on this forum. I would refrain from giving advice in the Law School or Employment Forums until you enter law school and complete at least a summer at a large firm.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Job Prospects Out of T14 Schools?

Postby Chickensoup » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:15 pm

EvilClinton wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:I've worked closely with established lawyers who were graduates of Harvard, Cornell, and Rutgers. They all argued frequently (while discussing their cases), they all read and summarized countless pages of boring shit, and they all were not miserable. Sooooooo....

In my experience, the "conventional wisdom" of TLS fails again.

Oh, and the Rutgers grad actually made a lot more than the Cornell grad. The Harvard grad was the boss of both of them, though.

Honestly your 0L experiences really don't carry much weight on this forum. I would refrain from giving advice in the Law School or Employment Forums until you enter law school and complete at least a summer at a large firm.


I'm not giving advice. I'm pointing to examples that refute the nonsensical shit that is spouted daily on this forum. Who cares that I'm a 0L? I've worked at a law firm for 2 summers. I worked very closely with a lot of these lawyers, and I can assure you that most of you have no idea what you're talking about.




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