Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

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nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:11 pm

hume85 wrote:What types of schools are we talking about? It seems like most of the T10 schools+Northwestern aren't doing that poorly.


I've heard UT did about the same, if not a little better than last year, due to the Texas market being a bit stronger than many other markets. Obviously, no way to confirm this until the actual numbers come out.

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mrman17
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby mrman17 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:40 pm

I just graduated and passed the bar exam. (Thank goodness it's over). For me, I was never set on practicing as a lawyer. I wanted the training because it complements my Finance degree. I later decided during my second year that I would rather be a janitor than a lawyer. I'm more of a numbers guy, and don't want to spend years of my life writing memos. Although there are very few legal jobs (almost none right now), I have received a lot of interest and calls from headhunters for finance positions. Having a Juris Doctorate degree sets me apart from other candidates. Also, the finance positions often pay more than the available law positions anyway.

If I had it to do all over again....I would probably have gone to one of the lower ranked schools that offered me a scholarship. Given the nature of the economy, brutal competition, and changes in the legal industry, everyone should enter law school assuming that they will have a damn hard time finding a job in the legal industry. That said, there will be a job for everyone....just maybe not the job you want or expect after graduation.

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mrman17
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby mrman17 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:53 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
Skyblaze wrote:Some people actually want to be lawyers.

+1. Plus, there are not many other employee opportunities where you can start at +$125K - $160K and make a lot more in future years. But yes, you take your chances.


That is a thing of the past...even for graduates of the top 3. Clients know that they have been paying top dollar for the work of new graduates and have demanded lower fees. Also, many jobs that used to go to recent graduates are being outsourced to Bangladesh.

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hume85
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby hume85 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:54 pm

mrman17 wrote:I just graduated and passed the bar exam. (Thank goodness it's over). For me, I was never set on practicing as a lawyer. I wanted the training because it complements my Finance degree. I later decided during my second year that I would rather be a janitor than a lawyer. I'm more of a numbers guy, and don't want to spend years of my life writing memos. Although there are very few legal jobs (almost none right now), I have received a lot of interest and calls from headhunters for finance positions. Having a Juris Doctorate degree sets me apart from other candidates. Also, the finance positions often pay more than the available law positions anyway.

If I had it to do all over again....I would probably have gone to one of the lower ranked schools that offered me a scholarship. Given the nature of the economy, brutal competition, and changes in the legal industry, everyone should enter law school assuming that they will have a damn hard time finding a job in the legal industry. That said, there will be a job for everyone....just maybe not the job you want or expect after graduation.


.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:56 pm

I am attending, because it is still the best avenue to enter politics. If you look at the price for master's in public policy or public administration, it doesn't make any sense to pay roughly the same amount for an even more worthless degree. Most big time politicians don't just have a bachelor's degree.

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Sheffield
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Sheffield » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:28 pm

mrman17 wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:
Skyblaze wrote:Some people actually want to be lawyers.

+1. Plus, there are not many other employee opportunities where you can start at +$125K - $160K and make a lot more in future years. But yes, you take your chances.


That is a thing of the past...even for graduates of the top 3. Clients know that they have been paying top dollar for the work of new graduates and have demanded lower fees. Also, many jobs that used to go to recent graduates are being outsourced to Bangladesh.

Shortly after OCI there was concern that ’12 might be worse than ’11. However, in the past few weeks there has been a significant surge of offers, even those with median scores are having their pick of six-figure offers. Just saying. . . .

FWIW: T14.

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Tuco Salamanca
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Tuco Salamanca » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:32 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I am attending, because it is still the best avenue to enter politics. If you look at the price for master's in public policy or public administration, it doesn't make any sense to pay roughly the same amount for an even more worthless degree. Most big time politicians don't just have a bachelor's degree.


The best avenue to enter politics is to enter politics. Work on campaigns, intern for senators/congressman, and network. You're just wasting time in law school unless you want to be a lawyer.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:48 pm

A career in politics is as about a sure thing as Big Law. It could end at the blink of an eye with one dumb statement. A legal job is a good backup plan from a T-14 anyways.

Striderite3
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Striderite3 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:53 pm

PaulKriske wrote:"There's always room at the top."

- Daniel Webster

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manofjustice
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby manofjustice » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:30 pm

scifiguy wrote:Just curious after reading how few good legal jobs there are? Why do so many people go to law school then?


Because the economy sucks and they're afraid their life will suck if they don't get a real job, and going to law school seems easy. (It's not.)

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manofjustice
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby manofjustice » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:41 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:I am attending, because it is still the best avenue to enter politics. If you look at the price for master's in public policy or public administration, it doesn't make any sense to pay roughly the same amount for an even more worthless degree. Most big time politicians don't just have a bachelor's degree.


So? Does that mean getting something more than a bachelor's degree appreciably increases your chances at entering politics? No.

"I want to be a politician" is a bad reason to go to law school.

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PDaddy
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby PDaddy » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:11 pm

moonman157 wrote:We're all special snowflakes. Sure, other people aren't getting jobs, but I'm the exception that will!


Shut it down b/c TITCR!

I would caution Black, Hispanic, N.A., or non-Chinese/Japanese applicants that there are still lots of jobs for them - especially females. The legal job market has not changed; in fact it has gotten even better for them in recent years because the dearth of qualified minority attorneys has only gotten worse. That's a very bad thing in the minds of BigLaw recruiters, who do not want their firms to be viewed in the wrong light by their clients - many of which are large corporations with marketing campaigns that project images of pluralism and diversity.

They are under much pressure to keep a regular influx of URM talent. And fewer URM's are applying to law school these days. A lot of non-minorities don't like to hear this, but it is the truth. The job market is a bit more favorable - if complicated - for URM's.

If you are Black, Mexican, N.A., or non-Chinese/Japanese Asian and can get into a top-50 school, go for it. You don't even need to finish in the top-20% of your class. You will secure a good-paying job as long as you are a solid student who is diligent and interviews well.
Last edited by PDaddy on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

uvabro
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby uvabro » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:12 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:School is easier than work.

idk what kind of work you did, but that is very untrue in my experience.

it's 9:12 on a saturday night and i'm home when i'd rather be at any # of events because i went out the past 2 nights, and have work to do. i worked 20 hours a week making 50k before law school.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:36 pm

uvabro wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:School is easier than work.

idk what kind of work you did, but that is very untrue in my experience.

it's 9:12 on a saturday night and i'm home when i'd rather be at any # of events because i went out the past 2 nights, and have work to do. i worked 20 hours a week making 50k before law school.


Yeah I guess my work was the outlier and 50K a year jobs for 20 hours a week are the norm for college grads.

See, most people's jobs require that they eventually wake up. In college you can miss weeks at a time and do just fine. The temptation to return to that cocoon is very strong, especially for people who are struggling to land a decent job.

uvabro
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby uvabro » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:49 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
uvabro wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:School is easier than work.

idk what kind of work you did, but that is very untrue in my experience.

it's 9:12 on a saturday night and i'm home when i'd rather be at any # of events because i went out the past 2 nights, and have work to do. i worked 20 hours a week making 50k before law school.


Yeah I guess my work was the outlier and 50K a year jobs for 20 hours a week are the norm for college grads.

See, most people's jobs require that they eventually wake up. In college you can miss weeks at a time and do just fine. The temptation to return to that cocoon is very strong, especially for people who are struggling to land a decent job.

But law school isn't like that. Power to my section mates who can go clubbing 4 nights a week and know the material as well as me. But they're the rare. I don't think most non-ivy types can do this in LS and be fine.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:05 am

So far, law school doesn't seem all that bad. But it's only September, and that's not the point anyway. The point is that most people don't have to work that hard in undergrad, and as soon as they get into the real world, having to actually wake up 5 days a week and pay bills, they want to go back to school. A lot of those people might find that law school is a whole different ballgame once they're here, but the OP's question asked about why they apply in the first place.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:29 am

PDaddy wrote:Shut it down b/c TITCR!

I would caution Black, Hispanic, N.A., or non-Chinese/Japanese applicants that there are still lots of jobs for them - especially females. The legal job market has not changed; in fact it has gotten even better for them in recent years because the dearth of qualified minority attorneys has only gotten worse. That's a very bad thing in the minds of BigLaw recruiters, who do not want their firms to be viewed in the wrong light by their clients - many of which are large corporations with marketing campaigns that project images of pluralism and diversity.

They are under much pressure to keep a regular influx of URM talent. And fewer URM's are applying to law school these days. A lot of non-minorities don't like to hear this, but it is the truth. The job market is a bit more favorable - if complicated - for URM's.

If you are Black, Mexican, N.A., or non-Chinese/Japanese Asian and can get into a top-50 school, go for it. You don't even need to finish in the top-20% of your class. You will secure a good-paying job as long as you are a solid student who is diligent and interviews well.


LMAO!!!!!!!! BOATLOADS of URMs at UVA are struggling to find ANY employment--let alone biglaw! Firms are rejecting URMS from UVA in droves if they have under a 3.2. Firm don't give a damn about diversity if it doesn't come matched with grades. And quite frankly you DO need to be in the top 20 percent as a URM if you want biglaw from a school in the 40s.

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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Greatest,Ever » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:14 am

To deny there is an employment problem would be a grave sin. With that said: if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. I'm currently a 1L at a T1 school and I couldn't be happier. I'm at the right school for me and getting a lot out of my school work. Law school is very demanding, but for the first time in my life I'm actually buying into the work that I am doing. When I sit down and read a case, I feel a great sense of satisfaction afterwards. I was a mediocre student throughout my academic career because I knew that none of it mattered. I skated by in undergrad with a 3.1 and did well enough on the LSAT to land at a top 50 school with some money. I had my doubts last year when I was applying to school, but the closer I got to orientation, the more that I felt I was making the right choice. Now that over a month has gone by, the choice to be here feels even more right. The point is, go through the application process and do some honest reflection on what you want out of the near future. For me, going to law school has been the right choice. I may never become a lawyer, but at least I will not have any regrets about not giving it a shot. By the way, my law school experience is much more fun than my undergrad. If I wanted to, I could probably go out every night from Thursday to Sunday and still get more work done than I ever did in college. If anybody wants to message me, I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. I'm very content right now and reading through this message board makes me feel for everybody who a) isn't enjoying law school or b) can't find a job at the end of it. I may be in the latter situation, but at least the means justifies the ends. Also, I firmly believe that if you put in a good faith effort and remember to see the forest for the trees, you'll land something by the time you get out of law school.

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manofjustice
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby manofjustice » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:07 am

Greatest,Ever wrote:To deny there is an employment problem would be a grave sin. With that said: if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. I'm currently a 1L at a T1 school and I couldn't be happier. I'm at the right school for me and getting a lot out of my school work. Law school is very demanding, but for the first time in my life I'm actually buying into the work that I am doing. When I sit down and read a case, I feel a great sense of satisfaction afterwards. I was a mediocre student throughout my academic career because I knew that none of it mattered. I skated by in undergrad with a 3.1 and did well enough on the LSAT to land at a top 50 school with some money. I had my doubts last year when I was applying to school, but the closer I got to orientation, the more that I felt I was making the right choice. Now that over a month has gone by, the choice to be here feels even more right. The point is, go through the application process and do some honest reflection on what you want out of the near future. For me, going to law school has been the right choice. I may never become a lawyer, but at least I will not have any regrets about not giving it a shot. By the way, my law school experience is much more fun than my undergrad. If I wanted to, I could probably go out every night from Thursday to Sunday and still get more work done than I ever did in college. If anybody wants to message me, I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. I'm very content right now and reading through this message board makes me feel for everybody who a) isn't enjoying law school or b) can't find a job at the end of it. I may be in the latter situation, but at least the means justifies the ends. Also, I firmly believe that if you put in a good faith effort and remember to see the forest for the trees, you'll land something by the time you get out of law school.


Can you at least try not to sound like a 0L?

You're really NOT scared out of your mind this three years of "great satisfaction" will all be for naught?

Will you feel so satisfied reading cases this time next year after you've struck out at another god-awful OCI?

edit: which school, btw?

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Tuco Salamanca
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Tuco Salamanca » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:12 am

Greatest,Ever wrote:To deny there is an employment problem would be a grave sin. With that said: if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. I'm currently a 1L at a T1 school and I couldn't be happier. I'm at the right school for me and getting a lot out of my school work. Law school is very demanding, but for the first time in my life I'm actually buying into the work that I am doing. When I sit down and read a case, I feel a great sense of satisfaction afterwards. I was a mediocre student throughout my academic career because I knew that none of it mattered. I skated by in undergrad with a 3.1 and did well enough on the LSAT to land at a top 50 school with some money. I had my doubts last year when I was applying to school, but the closer I got to orientation, the more that I felt I was making the right choice. Now that over a month has gone by, the choice to be here feels even more right. The point is, go through the application process and do some honest reflection on what you want out of the near future. For me, going to law school has been the right choice. I may never become a lawyer, but at least I will not have any regrets about not giving it a shot. By the way, my law school experience is much more fun than my undergrad. If I wanted to, I could probably go out every night from Thursday to Sunday and still get more work done than I ever did in college. If anybody wants to message me, I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. I'm very content right now and reading through this message board makes me feel for everybody who a) isn't enjoying law school or b) can't find a job at the end of it. I may be in the latter situation, but at least the means justifies the ends. Also, I firmly believe that if you put in a good faith effort and remember to see the forest for the trees, you'll land something by the time you get out of law school.


FeelTheHeat wrote:
moonman157 wrote:special snowflakes


moonman157 wrote:special snowflakes


moonman157 wrote:special snowflakes

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EvilClinton
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby EvilClinton » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:14 am

Greatest,Ever wrote:To deny there is an employment problem would be a grave sin. With that said: if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. I'm currently a 1L at a T1 school and I couldn't be happier. I'm at the right school for me and getting a lot out of my school work. Law school is very demanding, but for the first time in my life I'm actually buying into the work that I am doing. When I sit down and read a case, I feel a great sense of satisfaction afterwards. I was a mediocre student throughout my academic career because I knew that none of it mattered. I skated by in undergrad with a 3.1 and did well enough on the LSAT to land at a top 50 school with some money. I had my doubts last year when I was applying to school, but the closer I got to orientation, the more that I felt I was making the right choice. Now that over a month has gone by, the choice to be here feels even more right. The point is, go through the application process and do some honest reflection on what you want out of the near future. For me, going to law school has been the right choice. I may never become a lawyer, but at least I will not have any regrets about not giving it a shot. By the way, my law school experience is much more fun than my undergrad. If I wanted to, I could probably go out every night from Thursday to Sunday and still get more work done than I ever did in college. If anybody wants to message me, I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. I'm very content right now and reading through this message board makes me feel for everybody who a) isn't enjoying law school or b) can't find a job at the end of it. I may be in the latter situation, but at least the means justifies the ends. Also, I firmly believe that if you put in a good faith effort and remember to see the forest for the trees, you'll land something by the time you get out of law school.


LOL, come back and tell us how you feel after you graduate without a any job prospects and are 100k in debt.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:07 am

EvilClinton wrote:
Greatest,Ever wrote:To deny there is an employment problem would be a grave sin. With that said: if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. I'm currently a 1L at a T1 school and I couldn't be happier. I'm at the right school for me and getting a lot out of my school work. Law school is very demanding, but for the first time in my life I'm actually buying into the work that I am doing. When I sit down and read a case, I feel a great sense of satisfaction afterwards. I was a mediocre student throughout my academic career because I knew that none of it mattered. I skated by in undergrad with a 3.1 and did well enough on the LSAT to land at a top 50 school with some money. I had my doubts last year when I was applying to school, but the closer I got to orientation, the more that I felt I was making the right choice. Now that over a month has gone by, the choice to be here feels even more right. The point is, go through the application process and do some honest reflection on what you want out of the near future. For me, going to law school has been the right choice. I may never become a lawyer, but at least I will not have any regrets about not giving it a shot. By the way, my law school experience is much more fun than my undergrad. If I wanted to, I could probably go out every night from Thursday to Sunday and still get more work done than I ever did in college. If anybody wants to message me, I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. I'm very content right now and reading through this message board makes me feel for everybody who a) isn't enjoying law school or b) can't find a job at the end of it. I may be in the latter situation, but at least the means justifies the ends. Also, I firmly believe that if you put in a good faith effort and remember to see the forest for the trees, you'll land something by the time you get out of law school.


LOL, come back and tell us how you feel after you graduate without a any job prospects and are 100k in debt.


Not everybody is concerned about money. Kid could have connections that will help him do just fine.

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sunynp
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:40 am

Chickensoup wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:
Greatest,Ever wrote:To deny there is an employment problem would be a grave sin. With that said: if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. I'm currently a 1L at a T1 school and I couldn't be happier. I'm at the right school for me and getting a lot out of my school work. Law school is very demanding, but for the first time in my life I'm actually buying into the work that I am doing. When I sit down and read a case, I feel a great sense of satisfaction afterwards. I was a mediocre student throughout my academic career because I knew that none of it mattered. I skated by in undergrad with a 3.1 and did well enough on the LSAT to land at a top 50 school with some money. I had my doubts last year when I was applying to school, but the closer I got to orientation, the more that I felt I was making the right choice. Now that over a month has gone by, the choice to be here feels even more right. The point is, go through the application process and do some honest reflection on what you want out of the near future. For me, going to law school has been the right choice. I may never become a lawyer, but at least I will not have any regrets about not giving it a shot. By the way, my law school experience is much more fun than my undergrad. If I wanted to, I could probably go out every night from Thursday to Sunday and still get more work done than I ever did in college. If anybody wants to message me, I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. I'm very content right now and reading through this message board makes me feel for everybody who a) isn't enjoying law school or b) can't find a job at the end of it. I may be in the latter situation, but at least the means justifies the ends. Also, I firmly believe that if you put in a good faith effort and remember to see the forest for the trees, you'll land something by the time you get out of law school.


LOL, come back and tell us how you feel after you graduate without a any job prospects and are 100k in debt.


Not everybody is concerned about money. Kid could have connections that will help him do just fine.


You didn't read the entire paragraph did you? He doesn't mention connections or a job waiting for him.

He feels sorry for all the people who don't have jobs ( that would be 50% of all grads and probably at least 30% of the grads from his school) because he is sure that if he hustles he will find something before he graduates. See, he is basically ignoring the truth of the employment situation.

He is a good example of the special snowflake: all these other people don't have jobs but I will put in a good faith (LOL) effort and I will get a job.

I hope everything works out for him, and at least he has limited his debt somewhat. But to the OP who asked why people go to law school when there aren't enough jobs, there is you answer right in front of you. It is called denial.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:47 am

You didn't read the entire paragraph did you? He doesn't mention connections or a job waiting for him.


You don't really get how connections work, do you? It's not as if someone has a specific job waiting for you years in advance. It means that the kid could come from a family with some money, with some legal contacts, and with multiple other avenues for him to pursue.

I know multiple people like this. For them, law school is the perfect place to spend a few years.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Why so many people apply/attend LS if jobs are so rare?

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:01 pm

BuckinghamB wrote:In my case, if I didn't go, I would work in retail food service for less than $30K so there's not much opportunity cost. Even if I don't score biglaw, there's a good chance I'll still find a job that would pay significantly more than that. And if I am one of the minority at my school that can't find a JD-required job after graduation, I'll likely have dat sugar mama to hold me over until I find work ;) So I think it makes sense for me. Plus, I am special snowflake.

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