Horror Stories

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Chickensoup
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Horror Stories

Postby Chickensoup » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:27 pm

So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.

delusional
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby delusional » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:07 pm

Chickensoup wrote:So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.
This is not a hard question. T14 grads who don't have jobs and don't have other resources lose their houses and cars like anyone else without jobs and other resources.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:13 pm

delusional wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.
This is not a hard question. T14 grads who don't have jobs and don't have other resources lose their houses and cars like anyone else without jobs and other resources.


Yeah, you didn't really answer the question . . . maybe that's why you thought it was easy.

I would doubt that too many T14 grads are unable to make their way financially after a few years, even if very burdened by debt. Though I'm sure there are a few exceptions of ppl from even HYS who end up down and out... on the street .... using crack (some in biglaw doing it lol) etc. i.e. worst case scenario. Actual serious about that...

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:21 pm

Chickensoup wrote:So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.


This isn't exactly what you're asking for, but if you want horror stories, just read everything in this thread written by areyouinsane viewtopic.php?f=1&t=162790

(Directed by M. Night Shyamalan)

delusional
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby delusional » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:58 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
delusional wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.
This is not a hard question. T14 grads who don't have jobs and don't have other resources lose their houses and cars like anyone else without jobs and other resources.


Yeah, you didn't really answer the question . . . maybe that's why you thought it was easy.

I would doubt that too many T14 grads are unable to make their way financially after a few years, even if very burdened by debt. Though I'm sure there are a few exceptions of ppl from even HYS who end up down and out... on the street .... using crack (some in biglaw doing it lol) etc. i.e. worst case scenario. Actual serious about that...
Instead of writing that it's not hard, I should have written that the question was a non-sequitur. It takes more than borrowing 200K and not finding a legal job to end up at a soup kitchen and a lot of what it takes is not related to law school at all.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Chickensoup » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:30 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.


This isn't exactly what you're asking for, but if you want horror stories, just read everything in this thread written by areyouinsane viewtopic.php?f=1&t=162790

(Directed by M. Night Shyamalan)


So I read the thread about the dumpy alcoholic lawyer who makes 80K. That's really not that bad. As someone pointed out, 80K + wife making 40K = 120K. A respectable family income, even in the NY metro area. If that is really the worst case scenario, I'm not seeing what everyone is so concerned about.

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banjo
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby banjo » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:21 am

I got my current law-related job over multiple stale JDs, including one from a T14. The salary is not enough to service even a small amount of debt.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Chickensoup » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:36 am

banjo wrote:I got my current law-related job over multiple stale JDs, including one from a T14. The salary is not enough to service even a small amount of debt.


1) How do you know who you were up against?

2) What is the salary of your current position?

3) Is there room for advancement/higher pay?

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banjo
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby banjo » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:55 am

It's basically a paralegal/admin position, so the next step would be law school for most people. One of my first jobs was sending rejection letters to candidates (I was new, so I didn't want to point out that this is a waste of time). There were so many that I ended up only sending letters to candidates that interviewed. Plenty of JDs from local TTTT, TTTTs from across the country, solid T1s, and a T14.

On the other hand, I personally know a T20 grad who got lathamed and is doing really, really well in finance.

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:24 am

Chickensoup wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.


This isn't exactly what you're asking for, but if you want horror stories, just read everything in this thread written by areyouinsane viewtopic.php?f=1&t=162790

(Directed by M. Night Shyamalan)


So I read the thread about the dumpy alcoholic lawyer who makes 80K. That's really not that bad. As someone pointed out, 80K + wife making 40K = 120K. A respectable family income, even in the NY metro area. If that is really the worst case scenario, I'm not seeing what everyone is so concerned about.


Read the stuff he says about DOC review. That is the worst place someone with a JD can end up (where you're still doing work of a "legal" nature - sort of )

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Chickensoup
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Chickensoup » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:41 pm

RickyDnwhyc wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
RickyDnwhyc wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:So much of what is discussed on this website and about law school in general is the risk involved. Where are the specific horror stories? Does anyone know any stories of people who have been mauled by the economy. I'm not talking about someone who graduated recently and still doesn't have a job. I'm talking about someone who has been unemployed or significantly underemployed for at least 3 years. I want to hears stories of T14 grads lining up at soup kitchens. People losing their cars or their homes. Does this stuff happen? If not, what does? Can someone give me some links to the worst outcomes of graduates of top law schools.


This isn't exactly what you're asking for, but if you want horror stories, just read everything in this thread written by areyouinsane viewtopic.php?f=1&t=162790

(Directed by M. Night Shyamalan)


So I read the thread about the dumpy alcoholic lawyer who makes 80K. That's really not that bad. As someone pointed out, 80K + wife making 40K = 120K. A respectable family income, even in the NY metro area. If that is really the worst case scenario, I'm not seeing what everyone is so concerned about.


Read the stuff he says about DOC review. That is the worst place someone with a JD can end up (where you're still doing work of a "legal" nature - sort of )


Doc review sounds boring, that's for sure. But does anyone get stuck there for longer than a few years? Any stories of doc review lifers out there? It seems like you could do doc review for a few years and then transition to a new position bc you will now have attorney experience.

RickyDnwhyc
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby RickyDnwhyc » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 pm

Unfortunately I do not believe it's possible to lateral out of doc review. But don't quote me on that.

rad lulz
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby rad lulz » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:45 pm

Chickensoup wrote:Doc review sounds boring, that's for sure. But does anyone get stuck there for longer than a few years? Any stories of doc review lifers out there? It seems like you could do doc review for a few years and then transition to a new position bc you will now have attorney experience.

You can keep applying for jobs, but doc review doesn't give you any skills except to review more docs.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:37 pm

Bump. These stories are boringly unhorrific. Makes me want to take out 250K in loans.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:43 pm

Chickensoup wrote:Bump. These stories are boringly unhorrific. Makes me want to take out 250K in loans.

See, e.g., memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3957

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cinephile
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby cinephile » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:50 pm

I know a guy who graduated from a lower T14 and never found full-time legal work. I think he did government work his 2L summer, but I'm not 100% on that. For the first year after graduation, he found absolutely nothing paid, despite constant searching. Then the second year he burnt out of searching and spent a year raising his new baby. Now the kid is a bit older so he's gone back to looking, but all he's found is doc review. So sometimes he's employed and sometimes he isn't. Doc review will lead nowhere and he wasted probably $100k on a useless education. He can't fully service his debt and his wife is providing for a family of four now on a teacher's salary. Destroying your family's future sounds pretty horrific.

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msblaw89
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby msblaw89 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:32 pm

If you get into the t14, hit around median, network, and are not disgustingly anti-social....you are going to be fine. Even if you are bottom 1/3 but network and really rock an interview, you will be fine. I'm sick of all the TLS negative Nancy's out there. Do some law school grads end up unemployed? Yes, but probably for a good reason. The majority are still getting decent jobs at the t14.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:42 pm

Why wouldn't you just open a solo practice if you were struggling that badly? I know some of those guys do very well.

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beachbum
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby beachbum » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:46 pm

msblaw89 wrote:If you get into the t14, hit around median, network, and are not disgustingly anti-social....you are going to be fine. Even if you are bottom 1/3 but network and really rock an interview, you will be fine. I'm sick of all the TLS negative Nancy's out there. Do some law school grads end up unemployed? Yes, but probably for a good reason. The majority are still getting decent jobs at the t14.


Someone hasn't gone through OCI yet.

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cinephile
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby cinephile » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:47 pm

Chickensoup wrote:Why wouldn't you just open a solo practice if you were struggling that badly? I know some of those guys do very well.


Lol. Because renting an office space (in some jurisdictions a requirement), getting a subscription to Lexis, having malpractice insurance, advertising, renting office equipment, etc. is super cheap and easy.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:47 pm

You know I'm the first one to start talking about how bad things are in the legal industry, even for students at a top 14. But to be totally honest, when I step back and look at things from a broader perspective it really isn't any worse than it is for the average American right now. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's better for us than for the average American. Where law starts to look like a nightmare proposition is in comparison to other means to achieve upper middle class stature. But in comparison to the American public at large it's fine. I really don't know of anyone from any top 14 who is not meeting ends meet 2 or 3 years out of school. They may be working 40K yr jobs doing something that they don't particularly like, but that's the worst I've heard of. If your options are that vs. food service or retail you can't really complain about the legal field too much (read my and many other law students options before they attended law school). The problem is more that top 14 schools sell visions of biglaw, bigfed, and awesome PI as being the worst case scenarios. If it wasn't for that and the price it wouldn't even be that big of a deal.

msblaw89 wrote:If you get into the t14, hit around median, network, and are not disgustingly anti-social....you are going to be fine. Even if you are bottom 1/3 but network and really rock an interview, you will be fine. I'm sick of all the TLS negative Nancy's out there. Do some law school grads end up unemployed? Yes, but probably for a good reason. The majority are still getting decent jobs at the t14.


OK this is the other end of the spectrum though. Things are not rosy to this degree, but they aren't calamitous either.

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sunynp
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:09 pm

cinephile wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:Why wouldn't you just open a solo practice if you were struggling that badly? I know some of those guys do very well.


Lol. Because renting an office space (in some jurisdictions a requirement), getting a subscription to Lexis, having malpractice insurance, advertising, renting office equipment, etc. is super cheap and easy.


I think the biggest problem is finding clients who can pay you.

But, you know, if people want to ignore what is happening in law, go ahead and go. It gets tedious to have to try to convince people that they could be harming themselves.

I know top people from top schools who have been laid off and they are struggling. If you lose your job the first year or two in biglaw, you may not find anything remotely comparable and your career will be shot.

None of them have the interest, the training or the ability to just open their own firm and make any money.

I'm not going to post specific information about my friends' struggles just to feed your curiousity. (NB: most new associates in NYC don't own house or cars so they don't have those assets to lose. )There is one guy who graduated from NYU law and got laid off from in the recession and hasn't worked in law again. He is public about his story. He works with LST and he has a website called Constitutional Daily.

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Chickensoup
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby Chickensoup » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:21 pm

sunynp wrote:
cinephile wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:Why wouldn't you just open a solo practice if you were struggling that badly? I know some of those guys do very well.


Lol. Because renting an office space (in some jurisdictions a requirement), getting a subscription to Lexis, having malpractice insurance, advertising, renting office equipment, etc. is super cheap and easy.


I think the biggest problem is finding clients who can pay you.

But, you know, if people want to ignore what is happening in law, go ahead and go. It gets tedious to have to try to convince people that they could be harming themselves.

I know top people from top schools who have been laid off and they are struggling. If you lose your job the first year or two in biglaw, you may not find anything remotely comparable and your career will be shot.

None of them have the interest, the training or the ability to just open their own firm and make any money.

I'm not going to post specific information about my friends' struggles just to feed your curiousity. (NB: most new associates in NYC don't own house or cars so they don't have those assets to lose. )There is one guy who graduated from NYU law and got laid off from in the recession and hasn't worked in law again. He is public about his story. He works with LST and he has a website called Constitutional Daily.


I'm just saying that it seems like you guys act like 80% of law school graduates will end up homeless. I don't see enough evidence of this. There is a difference between going through a period of unemployment and/or low pay and being destitute. You also act like opening a solo is impossible, yet it seems that many people on JDU did it and are doing okay. I just find it weird that people on here have a worse view of the employment situation than people on JDU, a board dedicated to how bad the legal job market is.

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smaug_
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby smaug_ » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:31 pm

Chickensoup wrote:I'm just saying that it seems like you guys act like 80% of law school graduates will end up homeless. I don't see enough evidence of this. There is a difference between going through a period of unemployment and/or low pay and being destitute. You also act like opening a solo is impossible, yet it seems that many people on JDU did it and are doing okay. I just find it weird that people on here have a worse view of the employment situation than people on JDU, a board dedicated to how bad the legal job market is.


This forum is full of neurotic strivers. I don't know if you can say the same about JDU.

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sunynp
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Re: Horror Stories

Postby sunynp » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:43 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
sunynp wrote:
cinephile wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:Why wouldn't you just open a solo practice if you were struggling that badly? I know some of those guys do very well.


Lol. Because renting an office space (in some jurisdictions a requirement), getting a subscription to Lexis, having malpractice insurance, advertising, renting office equipment, etc. is super cheap and easy.


I think the biggest problem is finding clients who can pay you.

But, you know, if people want to ignore what is happening in law, go ahead and go. It gets tedious to have to try to convince people that they could be harming themselves.

I know top people from top schools who have been laid off and they are struggling. If you lose your job the first year or two in biglaw, you may not find anything remotely comparable and your career will be shot.

None of them have the interest, the training or the ability to just open their own firm and make any money.

I'm not going to post specific information about my friends' struggles just to feed your curiousity. (NB: most new associates in NYC don't own house or cars so they don't have those assets to lose. )There is one guy who graduated from NYU law and got laid off from in the recession and hasn't worked in law again. He is public about his story. He works with LST and he has a website called Constitutional Daily.


I'm just saying that it seems like you guys act like 80% of law school graduates will end up homeless. I don't see enough evidence of this. There is a difference between going through a period of unemployment and/or low pay and being destitute. You also act like opening a solo is impossible, yet it seems that many people on JDU did it and are doing okay. I just find it weird that people on here have a worse view of the employment situation than people on JDU, a board dedicated to how bad the legal job market is.


No one here acts like 80% of law graduates will end up homeless. We know that only 50% of them will never find employment as a lawyer. They probably don't end up homeless, but they do end up in debt for at least 20 years repaying their loans.

The truth about legal employment is finally starting to be told. Schools have lied for years. Until the past year or so on TLS, people were severely criticized for saying that the market was bad. (links to scam sites were not allowed because the forum got spammed with them at some point.) Posters would accuse people of "not wanting competition" instead of realizing that they were telling the truth. Or people were told that they must have lousy personalities and be terrible interviewers if they didn't have a job. No wonder people don't post about their failure to succeed in law.

Another reason that these stories aren't posted here is that very few law grads post. Most move on at some point it seems. Why would people who are struggling come back here and describe their life? (and possibly out themselves?)

This forum doesn't have much to offer except sympathy for people who strike out. And even the sympathy is often lacking ( see the girl from Duke or Virginia who said she was terrified because she had debt and not even a law fellowship; most posters accused her of being a flame.) Even 3Ls who strike out don't post much here. There isn't that much advice or knowledge base here to help them. In the no-offer thread, people who were no offered even said they were embarrassed to admit what happened to them. Do you really think that people are going to post their stories on TLS?

Just because this forum is not loaded with stories of misery for your consumption, that doesn't mean those stories aren't out there.




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