New York Law

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Chickensoup
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New York Law

Postby Chickensoup » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:05 pm

I have a desire to live and work in the NY metro area. I don't anticipate this changing, since I have strong family and economic ties to the region. For me, is it better to attend a school like Cornell than one like Duke, Georgetown, or Michigan?

Also, what is the deal with Fordham? I would love to attend for its location, but I feel that it does not stack up against the T14. Some say that it is very respected in New York, and there are certainly a lot of NYC-area big law firms that count many Fordham alums among their staff.

I also don't care too much about law firm prestige. I think I'd be just as happy working at a midsize firm in Jersey or Long Island than I would at some V10 in lower Manhattan. This may not be relevant at all.

So, what is my best bet? Cornell? Fordham? Some other T14. My numbers are 3.7, 169.

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twenty
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Re: New York Law

Postby twenty » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:14 pm

Money at Duke or Cornell should be okay for NYC. Your GPA is good enough to be able to pick up CCN with money if you retake 173+, though.

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Chickensoup
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Re: New York Law

Postby Chickensoup » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:20 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Money at Duke or Cornell should be okay for NYC. Your GPA is good enough to be able to pick up CCN with money if you retake 173+, though.


Yes, but I will not be retaking.

How about the differences between Duke, Cornell, G'town, and Michigan? And what about Fordham?

To me, it seems odd to pick Duke or G'town over even a place like Fordham b/c they are not geared toward the NY market. Is this backwards thinking?

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Lincoln
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Re: New York Law

Postby Lincoln » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:39 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Money at Duke or Cornell should be okay for NYC. Your GPA is good enough to be able to pick up CCN with money if you retake 173+, though.


Yes, but I will not be retaking.

How about the differences between Duke, Cornell, G'town, and Michigan? And what about Fordham?

To me, it seems odd to pick Duke or G'town over even a place like Fordham b/c they are not geared toward the NY market. Is this backwards thinking?


Cornell, Duke, and Michigan all place well in NYC. Cornell tends to outperform the other two in NYC in terms of absolute numbers, but whether that is simply a matter of self-selection (in that more students from Duke and Michigan choose Chicago, DC, CA, etc., over NYC) is always a matter of fierce debate on these boards. I would probably go with money or personal preference between these.

The top students at Fordham place very well. I know someone who is top 5% at Fordham who had 10+ offers from V25 firms. But the numbers at Fordham tend to skew very much towards the top, partly because of OCI pre-selection. Hence I would much rather be median at a T14 than at Fordham. It's more of a lottery (and law school is already a lottery).

GULC is probably somewhere below the three other T14 schools but above Fordham. It places well, but not quite as well as the rest of the T14. This may have something to do with size: GULC is huge whereas Cornell and Duke are both small.

In terms of getting a BigLaw job in NYC I would thus rank these particular schools C/D/M > GULC > Fordham

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Chickensoup
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Re: New York Law

Postby Chickensoup » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Lincoln wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Money at Duke or Cornell should be okay for NYC. Your GPA is good enough to be able to pick up CCN with money if you retake 173+, though.


Yes, but I will not be retaking.

How about the differences between Duke, Cornell, G'town, and Michigan? And what about Fordham?

To me, it seems odd to pick Duke or G'town over even a place like Fordham b/c they are not geared toward the NY market. Is this backwards thinking?


Cornell, Duke, and Michigan all place well in NYC. Cornell tends to outperform the other two in NYC in terms of absolute numbers, but whether that is simply a matter of self-selection (in that more students from Duke and Michigan choose Chicago, DC, CA, etc., over NYC) is always a matter of fierce debate on these boards. I would probably go with money or personal preference between these.

The top students at Fordham place very well. I know someone who is top 5% at Fordham who had 10+ offers from V25 firms. But the numbers at Fordham tend to skew very much towards the top, partly because of OCI pre-selection. Hence I would much rather be median at a T14 than at Fordham. It's more of a lottery (and law school is already a lottery).

GULC is probably somewhere below the three other T14 schools but above Fordham. It places well, but not quite as well as the rest of the T14. This may have something to do with size: GULC is huge whereas Cornell and Duke are both small.

In terms of getting a BigLaw job in NYC I would thus rank these particular schools C/D/M > GULC > Fordham


Hmm...the only reason I am slightly concerned is b/c it seems strange to attend a school like Duke or G'town if they are not geared towards the NY market. I know Cornell is geared to that market, so I am trying to understand why someone would choose Duke or G'town over Cornell if their goal was to work/live in NY.

Also, I am interested in the market beyond just NYC. Westchester, New Jersey, and Long Island also interest me. Do those firms target Cornell graduates?

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Lincoln
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Re: New York Law

Postby Lincoln » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:56 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
Lincoln wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Money at Duke or Cornell should be okay for NYC. Your GPA is good enough to be able to pick up CCN with money if you retake 173+, though.


Yes, but I will not be retaking.

How about the differences between Duke, Cornell, G'town, and Michigan? And what about Fordham?

To me, it seems odd to pick Duke or G'town over even a place like Fordham b/c they are not geared toward the NY market. Is this backwards thinking?


Cornell, Duke, and Michigan all place well in NYC. Cornell tends to outperform the other two in NYC in terms of absolute numbers, but whether that is simply a matter of self-selection (in that more students from Duke and Michigan choose Chicago, DC, CA, etc., over NYC) is always a matter of fierce debate on these boards. I would probably go with money or personal preference between these.

The top students at Fordham place very well. I know someone who is top 5% at Fordham who had 10+ offers from V25 firms. But the numbers at Fordham tend to skew very much towards the top, partly because of OCI pre-selection. Hence I would much rather be median at a T14 than at Fordham. It's more of a lottery (and law school is already a lottery).

GULC is probably somewhere below the three other T14 schools but above Fordham. It places well, but not quite as well as the rest of the T14. This may have something to do with size: GULC is huge whereas Cornell and Duke are both small.

In terms of getting a BigLaw job in NYC I would thus rank these particular schools C/D/M > GULC > Fordham


Hmm...the only reason I am slightly concerned is b/c it seems strange to attend a school like Duke or G'town if they are not geared towards the NY market. I know Cornell is geared to that market, so I am trying to understand why someone would choose Duke or G'town over Cornell if their goal was to work/live in NY.

Also, I am interested in the market beyond just NYC. Westchester, New Jersey, and Long Island also interest me. Do those firms target Cornell graduates?


It may "seem[ ] strange" but the reality is that these three schools all place well nationally. There are graduates from each of them going to the main legal markets: NYC, DC, SF, LA, Chicago, TX. All other things being equal, it may make sense to choose Cornell* if you are set on NYC. Should Duke or Michigan offer money, however, it would be foolish to turn down a lower cost of attendance for a what is by all accounts marginal differences between these schools in terms of job placement.

I know there are some NJ firms that interview at Cornell, but NJ, and -- to an even larger extent -- LI and Westchester are all relatively small markets dominated by firms with small summer programs. I can't really speak to them because it wasn't something I looked into.

* Full disclosure: I am a 3L at Cornell and very happy with my choice.

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Chickensoup
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Re: New York Law

Postby Chickensoup » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:03 pm

I see, I guess I just figured that there would be more NY firms hiring on campus at Cornell. What do you think of my numbers for Cornell? Can I count on admission? Do I have a shot at money in this down cycle?

P.S. Cornell's OCI is held in NYC, right? Or am I way off on that?

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Lincoln
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Re: New York Law

Postby Lincoln » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:10 pm

Chickensoup wrote:I see, I guess I just figured that there would be more NY firms hiring on campus at Cornell. What do you think of my numbers for Cornell? Can I count on admission? Do I have a shot at money in this down cycle?

P.S. Cornell's OCI is held in NYC, right? Or am I way off on that?


lawschoolnumbers is your best guide to your chances, but I'd say you should have no problem getting in and have a decent shot at some money. Cornell's main OCI (called August Job Fair, or AJF) is, indeed, held in a hotel in Manhattan.

Edited for typo.
Last edited by Lincoln on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lilhugsy24
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Re: New York Law

Postby lilhugsy24 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Most likely in at Cornell. You'll probably get some money (45K?). Dont expect any money from other T14 schools you may get into.

Why are you so against retaking if you don't mind me asking? Seems like money is a concern for you, so why not retake for a higher score to get more scholly money or a better chance at Columbia/NYU/Penn?

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Chickensoup
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Re: New York Law

Postby Chickensoup » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:27 pm

lilhugsy24 wrote:Most likely in at Cornell. You'll probably get some money (45K?). Dont expect any money from other T14 schools you may get into.

Why are you so against retaking if you don't mind me asking? Seems like money is a concern for you, so why not retake for a higher score to get more scholly money?


I tried terribly hard to get that 169. Took a prep course and everything. Was a little surprised I even got that high. Also, Cornell is pretty much my favorite school other than maybe NYU. I don't particularly understand the T14 distinction if you don't want to work in the markets that those schools are geared towards.

I.e. Why would U of C or Cal or Michigan or G'town or Duke be a better choice than Cornell for NY? Harvard and Yale are one thing, but I see Cornell, Penn, NYU, and even Columbia as essentially peer schools for the NY market. I mean, in the big picture, these students are only separated by a few questions on the LSAT.

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Lincoln
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Re: New York Law

Postby Lincoln » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
lilhugsy24 wrote:Most likely in at Cornell. You'll probably get some money (45K?). Dont expect any money from other T14 schools you may get into.

Why are you so against retaking if you don't mind me asking? Seems like money is a concern for you, so why not retake for a higher score to get more scholly money?


I tried terribly hard to get that 169. Took a prep course and everything. Was a little surprised I even got that high. Also, Cornell is pretty much my favorite school other than maybe NYU. I don't particularly understand the T14 distinction if you don't want to work in the markets that those schools are geared towards.

I.e. Why would U of C or Cal or Michigan or G'town or Duke be a better choice than Cornell for NY? Harvard and Yale are one thing, but I see Cornell, Penn, NYU, and even Columbia as essentially peer schools for the NY market. I mean, in the big picture, these students are only separated by a few questions on the LSAT.


They may only be separated by a few questions, but Columbia, and to a lesser extent NYU and Penn, give you a higher chance of getting a job at a big firm in NYC. Think of it this way: Given the option, would you want a 70% chance or an 85% chance of winning the lottery?

That being said, if you don't think there's a realistic chance of increasing your score, that's your prerogative. Unlike the prevailing wisdom on these boards I don't think everyone can get a 170 with enough practice, me included.

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Lincoln
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Re: New York Law

Postby Lincoln » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:33 pm

I should say that knowing what I know now there aren't many schools I'd choose over Cornell -- I got more than I was hoping when I came here -- but I would definitely recommend a 0L to choose Columbia in a heartbeat.

Edited for clarity.

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IAFG
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Re: New York Law

Postby IAFG » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:38 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
lilhugsy24 wrote:Most likely in at Cornell. You'll probably get some money (45K?). Dont expect any money from other T14 schools you may get into.

Why are you so against retaking if you don't mind me asking? Seems like money is a concern for you, so why not retake for a higher score to get more scholly money?


I tried terribly hard to get that 169. Took a prep course and everything. Was a little surprised I even got that high. Also, Cornell is pretty much my favorite school other than maybe NYU. I don't particularly understand the T14 distinction if you don't want to work in the markets that those schools are geared towards.

I.e. Why would U of C or Cal or Michigan or G'town or Duke be a better choice than Cornell for NY? Harvard and Yale are one thing, but I see Cornell, Penn, NYU, and even Columbia as essentially peer schools for the NY market. I mean, in the big picture, these students are only separated by a few questions on the LSAT.

You see them as peers, but do firms? The question to ask isn't "how many students end up at NY firms?" but rather "how deep in the class will NY firms go at each school?" Now, that's not an easy question to answer, but it's what you should be trying to find out, rather than which school is more "oriented" toward NY. Every T14 has a lot of NY firms recruiting there, and every NY firm will look at students from most of the T14.

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Lincoln
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Re: New York Law

Postby Lincoln » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:44 pm

IAFG wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
lilhugsy24 wrote:Most likely in at Cornell. You'll probably get some money (45K?). Dont expect any money from other T14 schools you may get into.

Why are you so against retaking if you don't mind me asking? Seems like money is a concern for you, so why not retake for a higher score to get more scholly money?


I tried terribly hard to get that 169. Took a prep course and everything. Was a little surprised I even got that high. Also, Cornell is pretty much my favorite school other than maybe NYU. I don't particularly understand the T14 distinction if you don't want to work in the markets that those schools are geared towards.

I.e. Why would U of C or Cal or Michigan or G'town or Duke be a better choice than Cornell for NY? Harvard and Yale are one thing, but I see Cornell, Penn, NYU, and even Columbia as essentially peer schools for the NY market. I mean, in the big picture, these students are only separated by a few questions on the LSAT.

You see them as peers, but do firms? The question to ask isn't "how many students end up at NY firms?" but rather "how deep in the class will NY firms go at each school?" Now, that's not an easy question to answer, but it's what you should be trying to find out, rather than which school is more "oriented" toward NY. Every T14 has a lot of NY firms recruiting there, and every NY firm will look at students from most of the T14.


This. Sure, there are people from pretty much every top school at every top firm. But Columbia will place a far larger percentage of their class at those top firms, and a larger percentage of the class in BigLaw in general.

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Chickensoup
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Re: New York Law

Postby Chickensoup » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:49 pm

Lincoln wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
lilhugsy24 wrote:Most likely in at Cornell. You'll probably get some money (45K?). Dont expect any money from other T14 schools you may get into.

Why are you so against retaking if you don't mind me asking? Seems like money is a concern for you, so why not retake for a higher score to get more scholly money?


I tried terribly hard to get that 169. Took a prep course and everything. Was a little surprised I even got that high. Also, Cornell is pretty much my favorite school other than maybe NYU. I don't particularly understand the T14 distinction if you don't want to work in the markets that those schools are geared towards.

I.e. Why would U of C or Cal or Michigan or G'town or Duke be a better choice than Cornell for NY? Harvard and Yale are one thing, but I see Cornell, Penn, NYU, and even Columbia as essentially peer schools for the NY market. I mean, in the big picture, these students are only separated by a few questions on the LSAT.

You see them as peers, but do firms? The question to ask isn't "how many students end up at NY firms?" but rather "how deep in the class will NY firms go at each school?" Now, that's not an easy question to answer, but it's what you should be trying to find out, rather than which school is more "oriented" toward NY. Every T14 has a lot of NY firms recruiting there, and every NY firm will look at students from most of the T14.


This. Sure, there are people from pretty much every top school at every top firm. But Columbia will place a far larger percentage of their class at those top firms, and a larger percentage of the class in BigLaw in general.


Yes, I see your point. Employment data seems to suggest that Columbia has an edge over Cornell. However, employment data looks pretty good for Cornell and I can't say I feel that the edge Columbia and NYU have are so big as to make it feel like the schools are competing at entirely different levels.

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IAFG
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Re: New York Law

Postby IAFG » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:22 pm

Chickensoup wrote:Yes, I see your point. Employment data seems to suggest that Columbia has an edge over Cornell. However, employment data looks pretty good for Cornell and I can't say I feel that the edge Columbia and NYU have are so big as to make it feel like the schools are competing at entirely different levels.

Posters in the bottom third employment outcomes thread seem to suggest otherwise. But it doesn't matter because you're not getting into T6 without a retake.

lilhugsy24
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Re: New York Law

Postby lilhugsy24 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:47 am

Chickensoup wrote:Yes, I see your point. Employment data seems to suggest that Columbia has an edge over Cornell. However, employment data looks pretty good for Cornell and I can't say I feel that the edge Columbia and NYU have are so big as to make it feel like the schools are competing at entirely different levels.


For Class of 2011 Columbia placed 61% into BigLaw where as Cornell placed 39% into BigLaw. Do you not consider that a big difference?

Ti Malice
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Re: New York Law

Postby Ti Malice » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:11 pm

Chickensoup wrote:I see, I guess I just figured that there would be more NY firms hiring on campus at Cornell. What do you think of my numbers for Cornell? Can I count on admission? Do I have a shot at money in this down cycle?


Admission to Cornell is definitely yours to lose: http://myLSN.info/v8eaxi. You have a decent shot at some money as well ($30-60K), especially if you're pushy about it.

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Re: New York Law

Postby Swimp » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Chickensoup wrote:I see Cornell, Penn, NYU, and even Columbia as essentially peer schools for the NY market. I mean, in the big picture, these students are only separated by a few questions on the LSAT.


I've seen a few posters recently who seem to think that the way to judge law schools is by considering something like the 'level of scholarship' or 'legal competence' of students and graduates at those schools. Where is this belief coming from? Law school isn't college. It's a professional school--a means to an end.

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Re: New York Law

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:26 pm

Chickensoup wrote:
Lincoln wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Money at Duke or Cornell should be okay for NYC. Your GPA is good enough to be able to pick up CCN with money if you retake 173+, though.


Yes, but I will not be retaking.

How about the differences between Duke, Cornell, G'town, and Michigan? And what about Fordham?

To me, it seems odd to pick Duke or G'town over even a place like Fordham b/c they are not geared toward the NY market. Is this backwards thinking?


Cornell, Duke, and Michigan all place well in NYC. Cornell tends to outperform the other two in NYC in terms of absolute numbers, but whether that is simply a matter of self-selection (in that more students from Duke and Michigan choose Chicago, DC, CA, etc., over NYC) is always a matter of fierce debate on these boards. I would probably go with money or personal preference between these.

The top students at Fordham place very well. I know someone who is top 5% at Fordham who had 10+ offers from V25 firms. But the numbers at Fordham tend to skew very much towards the top, partly because of OCI pre-selection. Hence I would much rather be median at a T14 than at Fordham. It's more of a lottery (and law school is already a lottery).

GULC is probably somewhere below the three other T14 schools but above Fordham. It places well, but not quite as well as the rest of the T14. This may have something to do with size: GULC is huge whereas Cornell and Duke are both small.

In terms of getting a BigLaw job in NYC I would thus rank these particular schools C/D/M > GULC > Fordham


Hmm...the only reason I am slightly concerned is b/c it seems strange to attend a school like Duke or G'town if they are not geared towards the NY market. I know Cornell is geared to that market, so I am trying to understand why someone would choose Duke or G'town over Cornell if their goal was to work/live in NY.

Also, I am interested in the market beyond just NYC. Westchester, New Jersey, and Long Island also interest me. Do those firms target Cornell graduates?



In a lot of ways duke IS geared to nyc. The school has a nat'l reputation. People from nyc to to NC just to interview duke students.

If i were an employer i'd rather have a dukie then a fordham student... but thats jsut me. And I promise you if you go to duke you will have plenty of alums in ny and connections to be made in ny.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: New York Law

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:27 pm

Swimp wrote:
Chickensoup wrote:I see Cornell, Penn, NYU, and even Columbia as essentially peer schools for the NY market. I mean, in the big picture, these students are only separated by a few questions on the LSAT.


I've seen a few posters recently who seem to think that the way to judge law schools is by considering something like the 'level of scholarship' or 'legal competence' of students and graduates at those schools. Where is this belief coming from? Law school isn't college. It's a professional school--a means to an end.


It's coming from schools who produce a bad end, so instead of talking about it, they focus on the means like it is important or something.




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