A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

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The Brainalist
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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:43 pm

To be fair, a california oranges to big apple comparison should lump the CA cities together. NYC is a much larger city and market.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:14 pm

chadbrochill wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:Not to split hairs but Detroit did have one of the best law school in the nation at one time.....Michigan.

Before the rankings came out (and during their early years), Michigan was considered a top 3 school. Ann Arbor is extremely close to Detroit and the school and the city were very symbiotic during Detroit's boom times.


Wow if this is true this explains alot about Michigan's recent fall. I know they primarily feed the NYC market nowadays, but to be honest I feel like I'd be better served at DNCG for NYC biglaw lately, is this wrong?


Neither Duke nor Georgetown give students a good chance at NYC big law.

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dingbat
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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby dingbat » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:22 pm

The Duck wrote:
Jredelman15 wrote:
The Duck wrote:It's never really happened. The T14 has always been the T14. Yes, it really is that rigid for hiring. Top 5 people or so at #17 would have a shot. Top 1/3?...not chance.

Edit: It's true that UT tied into the T14. UT places well in Texas and top UT people have a shot at other market. But top 1/3 at UT likely isn't breaking into DC/NYC.



Did you just say that only the top 5 ppl at a T17 would have a chance? You have got to be kidding me. The top 5 ppl at WVU got biglaw last year. OP this is a severe exaggeration.


Maybe, but I doubt its top 1/3. I don't have access to detailed employment information on those schools and can only go with what I've been told by several hiring partners in BigLaw firms. Nor do I really care that much to research it. Also, not all BigLaw firms will view these people in the same way.

The truth is, schools right outside the T14 are a hugely different story than those at #20-30 for instance. So it's possible I overstated it for #17 but not once you get a few schools lower. (Compare Vandy to GWU for instance.) And this will only increase dramatically as you go further down the T1.

Nor is it wise to go to a law school based upon what the top 1/3 can do...because odds are you won't be in the top 1/3.

Detailed Employment Statistics full credit
There's no clear drop-off from, say, Duke and Georgetown,to UCLA or Texas. Also, despite what some people say, the T14 aren't "National" while all other schools are "local", it's far more nuanced than that. When U.S. News first printed their ranking, there was only so much space on the first page of the article, which happened to be 14 schools. There has been little movement in general because top schools attract top students and top employers, so there's a strong reinforcement of the status quo. Historically HYS have pretty much been the top 3 since day 1, while CCN have been more or less in the same place for the duration. Similarly UCLA, USC and UT have been very stable in the top 20 and so on down the line. While there have been the occasional big swings, most schools tend to remain more or less around the same ranking over the long run:
A) it takes a long time for a particular market to become more dominant (or less)
B) within a market school rank/perception stays more or less the same (by example, in DC Georgetown>GW>American) and that is unlikely to change any time soon.
A major economic shift, such as we recently experienced, may have a big impact, if the effect on certain markets are disproportionate to the rest of the country, or if one school is in better or worse position than another

As an aside, lower down the rankings, there are much bigger changes in ranking, but this is misleading for many reasons, but that's a separate discussion

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indigomachine
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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby indigomachine » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:48 pm

The Brainalist wrote:To be fair, a california oranges to big apple comparison should lump the CA cities together. NYC is a much larger city and market.


Yeah, this was my reasoning (sorry if that wasn't clear from the post). I similarly doubt that all of UCLA and USC stay exclusively in LA as opposed to other CA markets like SF/Bay Area and SV. I could be totally off on that though.

On the flip side, "NY" state placement is pretty solidly = NYC placement.

ETA: I realize that expanding the discussion to CA placement in general complicates the argument about USC and UCLA as specifically dominant "LA" schools, since that seemed to be the initial focus, but I think that an exclusive LA placement is also probably a little misguided if a significant number of UCLA and USC students are gunning for and place in non-LA CA markets (and I can't really see why they wouldn't barring those markets being that insular against non-SLS/Berkeley CA schools, but even I don't think the gap is that big).

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby dabbadon8 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:54 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
chadbrochill wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:Not to split hairs but Detroit did have one of the best law school in the nation at one time.....Michigan.

Before the rankings came out (and during their early years), Michigan was considered a top 3 school. Ann Arbor is extremely close to Detroit and the school and the city were very symbiotic during Detroit's boom times.


Wow if this is true this explains alot about Michigan's recent fall. I know they primarily feed the NYC market nowadays, but to be honest I feel like I'd be better served at DNCG for NYC biglaw lately, is this wrong?


Neither Duke nor Georgetown give students a good chance at NYC big law.


Define good chance. I'm at Duke and know tons of people headed for NYC big law. I also know lots of people who could have gotten it if they wanted to but were targeting other markets or were die-hard PI.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:38 pm

DROVES

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby mr.hands » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
chadbrochill wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:Not to split hairs but Detroit did have one of the best law school in the nation at one time.....Michigan.

Before the rankings came out (and during their early years), Michigan was considered a top 3 school. Ann Arbor is extremely close to Detroit and the school and the city were very symbiotic during Detroit's boom times.


Wow if this is true this explains alot about Michigan's recent fall. I know they primarily feed the NYC market nowadays, but to be honest I feel like I'd be better served at DNCG for NYC biglaw lately, is this wrong?


Neither Duke nor Georgetown give students a good chance at NYC big law.


That is certifiably retarded.

NYC is primarily where Duke sends most of its grads (18%). Followed by NC (15%) and DC (13%).

You ignore the real possibility that Duke grads may want to go to Atlanta or other markets instead of NY. It's not that Duke places poorly in NY, it's that its grads want to go other places. Maybe that's why they went to law school in the South in the first place. The fact that Duke sends only 18% to its primary location speaks to how many different places Duke students go, not to the fact that Duke grads have trouble finding work in NY.

I'd love to hear your evidence supporting your assertion that Duke doesn't give its students "a good chance at NYC big law."

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:00 pm

mr.hands wrote:NYC is primarily where Duke sends most of its grads (18%). Followed by NC (15%) and DC (13%).
where do the other 54% go?

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby bk1 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:02 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Neither Duke nor Georgetown give students a good chance at NYC big law.

skepticalhippo.jpeg

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby mr.hands » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:13 pm

dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:NYC is primarily where Duke sends most of its grads (18%). Followed by NC (15%) and DC (13%).
where do the other 54% go?


Atlanta and California markets are really popular.

Either way, 12% get federal clerkships. 45% get biglaw. Given that Duke ranks 8th nationally in biglaw placement and 6th in federal clerkships, i don't think that the school has a problem sending its students to the easiest market to break into for biglaw, NYC.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:16 pm

mr.hands wrote:
dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:NYC is primarily where Duke sends most of its grads (18%). Followed by NC (15%) and DC (13%).
where do the other 54% go?


Atlanta and California markets are really popular.

At best, that still leaves 30% unaccounted for.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby dabbadon8 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:24 pm

dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:NYC is primarily where Duke sends most of its grads (18%). Followed by NC (15%) and DC (13%).
where do the other 54% go?


Atlanta and California markets are really popular.

At best, that still leaves 30% unaccounted for.


I know 4+ people off the top of my head doing SAs in Texas. Also people heading back to various home states both in the south and midwest.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby beachbum » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:36 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:I know 4+ people off the top of my head doing SAs in Texas. Also people heading back to various home states both in the south and midwest.


<--- Headed back to Midwest.

Of my close friends, one is DC, one is Texas, one is California, and one is NY.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby mr.hands » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:44 pm

dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:NYC is primarily where Duke sends most of its grads (18%). Followed by NC (15%) and DC (13%).
where do the other 54% go?


Atlanta and California markets are really popular.

At best, that still leaves 30% unaccounted for.


Just because I don't know where 100% of the class goes to doesn't change anything. That means literally nothing

The bottom line is that Duke is #8 in biglaw placement and #6 in federal clerkships. It's retarded to say that Duke does a poor job placing students in NYC. These are facts.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby lawyerwannabe » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:53 pm

dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
dingbat wrote:
mr.hands wrote:NYC is primarily where Duke sends most of its grads (18%). Followed by NC (15%) and DC (13%).
where do the other 54% go?


Atlanta and California markets are really popular.

At best, that still leaves 30% unaccounted for.


Look at all schools. The most recent numbers show that Duke sends about 55% into NLJ 250 jobs and Art. III clerkships. Over a coin-flip chance at really awesome jobs? That's pretty awesome ITE.

On the other hand, for example, Fordham only sends about 25% of their class to NLJ 250 jobs and Art. III clerkships. That still leaves 75% unaccounted for under your logic. The big difference between the 75% "unaccounted" for at Fordham and the 45% "unaccounted" for at Duke? Many of those 45% have firm jobs in their home markets because the Duke name carries weight and many chose Duke because they wanted to return to their non-major market home. The same can probably not be said about the "unaccounted" for from Fordham. It is in NYC and outside the NYC market, those 75% are probably buried in debt and unemployed.

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dingbat
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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby dingbat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:49 pm

erm, I was only asking where the rest of Duke's students go (location wise).
No more, no less. Anything else you read into that question has nothing to do with me

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:48 pm

No one said anything about Duke's NLJ/Clerkship placement. That's not the issue.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby The Duck » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:56 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:No one said anything about Duke's NLJ/Clerkship placement. That's not the issue.


For the love of God...just let this thread die already. No one cares.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:19 pm

The Duck wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:No one said anything about Duke's NLJ/Clerkship placement. That's not the issue.


For the love of God...just let this thread die already. No one cares.


I was actually curious as to the answer to dingbat's question myself.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby The Duck » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:28 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
The Duck wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:No one said anything about Duke's NLJ/Clerkship placement. That's not the issue.


For the love of God...just let this thread die already. No one cares.


I was actually curious as to the answer to dingbat's question myself.


Yes, but he posted it 6 days ago. If he hasn't come back, he probably isn't or no longer cares.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:38 pm

The Duck wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
The Duck wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:No one said anything about Duke's NLJ/Clerkship placement. That's not the issue.


For the love of God...just let this thread die already. No one cares.


I was actually curious as to the answer to dingbat's question myself.


Yes, but he posted it 6 days ago. If he hasn't come back, he probably isn't or no longer cares.


When I said "I" was curious as to the answer to dingbat's question, that did not mean that he had to still care.

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby mr.hands » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:10 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:No one said anything about Duke's NLJ/Clerkship placement. That's not the issue.


NYC is the easiest biglaw market to get into. Duke's NLJ numbers are relevant to that, as are Article III clerkship numbers (A3 clerks don't have any problems getting to NYC biglaw...)

You are actually an idiot.

/diethread

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Re: A Silly Question, but What About T15, T16, T17...

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
chadbrochill wrote:
EvilClinton wrote:Not to split hairs but Detroit did have one of the best law school in the nation at one time.....Michigan.

Before the rankings came out (and during their early years), Michigan was considered a top 3 school. Ann Arbor is extremely close to Detroit and the school and the city were very symbiotic during Detroit's boom times.


Wow if this is true this explains alot about Michigan's recent fall. I know they primarily feed the NYC market nowadays, but to be honest I feel like I'd be better served at DNCG for NYC biglaw lately, is this wrong?


Neither Duke nor Georgetown give students a good chance at NYC big law.


Duke placed 11.4% more of its class into firms 100+ than GULC. NYC is also its largest target market, as opposed to DC for GULC. Calling their placement statistics comparable is flat out ignorant.

Your poasting has gone downhill as of late.




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