Missing Big Law = Poverty?

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:03 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
jwinaz wrote:Here's one example of a firm with 4 full-time (it looks like) employed Regent lawyers: http://www.phillipspeterslaw.com/sub/our_attorneys.html

This is called hanging out your own shingle. I literally could do this right now. I could make a website and put a nice pic of me on there with my name next to it and all my credentials and offer to clean pools for 50 bucks a pop. It would look really cool and my mom would probably call and congratulate me but it wouldn't change the fact that I would be shit broke and have a completely unfulfilling life with zero career options moving forward.



Also, this particular example is not one of somebody hangng a shingle after graduating.

OP, regardless of this, people here are still right. I wouldnt go to regent unless you can go for free.


FTFY

Nothing to be gained even going for free. You lose three years of making even minimum wage and you end up overqualified for a lot of work.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:49 pm

FYI OP since you say you are from Virginia and interesting in practicing law here: a very substantial portion of UVA class of 2012 are "working" fellowships funded by the school. Essentially they were not able to secure paid legal employment, so they volunteer at legal organizations while the schools pays them a $35K stipend to help keep them afloat. I believe something like 20% of the class is on one of these "fellowships".

Paul Campos
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:03 pm

BruceWayne wrote:FYI OP since you say you are from Virginia and interesting in practicing law here: a very substantial portion of UVA class of 2012 are "working" fellowships funded by the school. Essentially they were not able to secure paid legal employment, so they volunteer at legal organizations while the schools pays them a $35K stipend to help keep them afloat. I believe something like 20% of the class is on one of these "fellowships".



Not relevant information for the OP, since he's considering Regent rather than UVA.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:10 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:FYI OP since you say you are from Virginia and interesting in practicing law here: a very substantial portion of UVA class of 2012 are "working" fellowships funded by the school. Essentially they were not able to secure paid legal employment, so they volunteer at legal organizations while the schools pays them a $35K stipend to help keep them afloat. I believe something like 20% of the class is on one of these "fellowships".



Not relevant information for the OP, since he's considering Regent rather than UVA.


The hope is that he can extrapolate. If UVA, the best law school in his state by far, has at least 20% of the class who were not able to secure paying legal work, that should tell him something about employment prospects at Regent in this economy.

Paul Campos
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:30 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:FYI OP since you say you are from Virginia and interesting in practicing law here: a very substantial portion of UVA class of 2012 are "working" fellowships funded by the school. Essentially they were not able to secure paid legal employment, so they volunteer at legal organizations while the schools pays them a $35K stipend to help keep them afloat. I believe something like 20% of the class is on one of these "fellowships".



Not relevant information for the OP, since he's considering Regent rather than UVA.


The hope is that he can extrapolate. If UVA, the best law school in his state by far, has at least 20% of the class who were not able to secure paying legal work, that should tell him something about employment prospects at Regent in this economy.



It was a joke.

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20130312
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby 20130312 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:44 pm

Paul Campos wrote:It was a joke.

No jokes allowed, TLS is all srs bsns now.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby paulinaporizkova » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:07 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:FYI OP since you say you are from Virginia and interesting in practicing law here: a very substantial portion of UVA class of 2012 are "working" fellowships funded by the school. Essentially they were not able to secure paid legal employment, so they volunteer at legal organizations while the schools pays them a $35K stipend to help keep them afloat. I believe something like 20% of the class is on one of these "fellowships".



Not relevant information for the OP, since he's considering Regent rather than UVA.


The hope is that he can extrapolate. If UVA, the best law school in his state by far, has at least 20% of the class who were not able to secure paying legal work, that should tell him something about employment prospects at Regent in this economy.



It was a joke.

BruceWayne, a guy at UVa who got biglaw and still trolls the shit out of everyone, does not joke.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:14 pm

paulinaporizkova wrote:BruceWayne, a guy at UVa who got biglaw and still trolls the shit out of everyone, does not joke.


Not that it's anyone's business, but I, like many of my classmates, don't have biglaw. The only thing "big" I have right now is Bigdebt.

WanderingPondering
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby WanderingPondering » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:24 pm

jwinaz wrote:
Hmmm. This is interesting.

I'm very surprised that a lawyer could make $40K or less. I'll try to confirm these numbers elsewhere. My only question is how this looks, if it's true, years later for these graduates? Let's suppose a new law graduate really does make $50K a year, but what about 5 years down the line? I noticed that data was for the class of 2011. So, these are entry level salaries.


You need to research a whole lot more before attending any law school. It's not "entry level" in the sense of someone getting a job as a management trainee at a large corporation. What do you think happens 5 years after working for yourself of some other firm with one of two lawyers? If your answer is the big law firms come running to you, your wrong. If you're wondering how in the hell would I pay off $100k in debt off of $40k/year if you're lucky, then you're heading in the right direction.

If you put up a shingle, you may eventually do well for yourself. But most don't.

mr.hands
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby mr.hands » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:39 pm

jwinaz wrote:
Bronte wrote:The problem is no so much that other jobs don't pay enough it's that other jobs are scarce. Government hiring has been very slow. Most importantly with regard to your question, the ideal of a midsize law firm that pays $80,000 to freshly-minted JDs is very rare. Midsize and small law firms do not have the resources to train new JDs and thus usually only hire experienced attorneys.

Here's a good article on law firm salaries: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... wyer-jobs/. It will confirm that your $80,000 a year salary is very, very rare.



Hmmm. This is interesting.

I'm very surprised that a lawyer could make $40K or less. I'll try to confirm these numbers elsewhere. My only question is how this looks, if it's true, years later for these graduates? Let's suppose a new law graduate really does make $50K a year, but what about 5 years down the line? I noticed that data was for the class of 2011. So, these are entry level salaries.


I'm not sure you're getting this. Less than half of the people graduating at Regent are in full time, legal work. Nearly 40% are underemployed. The average debt coming out of Regent isn't ~100,000. It's $200,000. (And even if you get a scholarship, you're likely to lose it in your second or third year because the school will take it away if you aren't at the top of your class). 0 graduates from Regent went into Biglaw last year and "0.8%" got clerkships.

--LinkRemoved--
Last edited by mr.hands on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jonjon1324
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby jonjon1324 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:27 pm

What about somebody like me who wants to go to UF, being a Florida resident and knowing I want to live in Florida. What exactly are my options? UF is a good bargain and I know I wouldn't be in crazy debt, but how would the job opportunities be? Or more specifically, what KIND of law jobs would I be able to get? If I go to UF, should I still strive for biglaw even though I really don't want to? I've seen people here get laughed at because they say they want to become a lawyer to help people, but like..that's really what I want to do. I don't want to be miserable in biglaw

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:46 pm

Yeah this guy really needs to do more research on law school employment outcomes, and employment outcomes in general. About 80% of small businesses in the US fail within the first few years, and that certainly include those that are unfortunate enough to be forced to start their own firm. In fact, I know several mid-career professionals who started their own firm (either by themselves or with a few others), and all of them were unable to make their small firm sustainable and subsequently dismantled them.

jonjon1324 wrote:What about somebody like me who wants to go to UF, being a Florida resident and knowing I want to live in Florida. What exactly are my options? UF is a good bargain and I know I wouldn't be in crazy debt, but how would the job opportunities be? Or more specifically, what KIND of law jobs would I be able to get? If I go to UF, should I still strive for biglaw even though I really don't want to? I've seen people here get laughed at because they say they want to become a lawyer to help people, but like..that's really what I want to do. I don't want to be miserable in biglaw


Series of questions:
1. What do you want to do with your law degree?
2. What do you see yourself doing your first year after graduation?
3. What did study in undergrad?
4. How much debt would UF cause you to have?

jonjon1324
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby jonjon1324 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:53 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Yeah this guy really needs to do more research on law school employment outcomes, and employment outcomes in general. About 80% of small businesses in the US fail within the first few years, and that certainly include those that are unfortunate enough to be forced to start their own firm. In fact, I know several mid-career professionals who started their own firm (either by themselves or with a few others), and all of them were unable to make their small firm sustainable and subsequently dismantled them.

jonjon1324 wrote:What about somebody like me who wants to go to UF, being a Florida resident and knowing I want to live in Florida. What exactly are my options? UF is a good bargain and I know I wouldn't be in crazy debt, but how would the job opportunities be? Or more specifically, what KIND of law jobs would I be able to get? If I go to UF, should I still strive for biglaw even though I really don't want to? I've seen people here get laughed at because they say they want to become a lawyer to help people, but like..that's really what I want to do. I don't want to be miserable in biglaw


Series of questions:
1. What do you want to do with your law degree?
2. What do you see yourself doing your first year after graduation?
3. What did study in undergrad?
4. How much debt would UF cause you to have?


1. I guess it sounds cheesy, but I would like to be able to help people whose civil liberties are being violated. Maybe something like the ACLU?
2. Well, ideally I'd like a job lol
3. Political Science
4. it's $14,000 a year for tuition, and according to TLS it has a 13,000$ living expenses cost. This is not counting POSSIBLE scholarship money/merit based aid (if this matters at all, I've lived in Florida all my life, I speak Spanish and I currently go to UF for undergrad)

jwinaz
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby jwinaz » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:26 am

Hi everyone. I do understand the problems of law school better now. I've been reading A LOT! I actually just wrote about that in my other thread,

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=193351

where I asked about Regent U. as a potential place to attend law school. I wrote a lengthier response there, but the basic idea is that I do see what people are talking about. There are some definite problems with the legal market and law schools (you can see my response there).

I'm actually not set on going to law school. I had thought about it, but now I'm not sure. I'm going to do everything I can to research (very very thoroughly) and learn as much as I can and then make a decision for myself. But, don't worry. I know I don't want to make any catastrophic life mistakes, so this will be a very serious and big question and decision for me.
I'm going to take time to think hard about it, learn much more, and make a wise choice.

Thank you for your help and all the very best wishes to everyone here!

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:36 am

jonjon1324 wrote:1. I guess it sounds cheesy, but I would like to be able to help people whose civil liberties are being violated. Maybe something like the ACLU?
2. Well, ideally I'd like a job lol
3. Political Science
4. it's $14,000 a year for tuition, and according to TLS it has a 13,000$ living expenses cost. This is not counting POSSIBLE scholarship money/merit based aid (if this matters at all, I've lived in Florida all my life, I speak Spanish and I currently go to UF for undergrad)


It will be very difficult to get a job with the ACLU or any similar type or organization. Not attending a T14 makes this a little more difficult. If you don't get a PI organization like that, what do you see yourself doing your first year? I keep asking this because there are only a couple of likely outcomes from median at almost all schools outside the T14 (small law and non-law), and I want you to see that you will most likely in up with one of them.

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AllDangle
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby AllDangle » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:15 pm

jonjon1324 wrote:1. I guess it sounds cheesy, but I would like to be able to help people whose civil liberties are being violated. Maybe something like the ACLU?
2. Well, ideally I'd like a job lol
3. Political Science
4. it's $14,000 a year for tuition, and according to TLS it has a 13,000$ living expenses cost. This is not counting POSSIBLE scholarship money/merit based aid (if this matters at all, I've lived in Florida all my life, I speak Spanish and I currently go to UF for undergrad)

Pretty sure UF's in-state tuition went up to $21k.
"The tuition/fees for one semester credit hour for 2012-2013 is $714.04 ($21,421.20 for 30 hours) for Florida residents and $1,359.50 per credit hours ($40,785 for 30 hours) for non-residents as defined in the UF undergraduate Catalog. Expenses vary, but UF law students can anticipate annual costs in addition to tuition of about $15,890."

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rayiner
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:03 pm

ACLU? Keep dreaming! Getting a job with even the lowest level PI firm is next to impossible. Among my PI friends at my T14, more are unemployed than employed.

jonjon1324
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby jonjon1324 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:06 pm

I would be willing to do any law work as long as I don't feel as though my work is somehow hurting someone. I just simply don't want to go into the kind of debt I'd be going to at a T14, especially after seeing my friend who's at a top 14 end up with ZERO job offers. Would I rather be getting 0 job offers when I'm 150,000 in debt, or would I rather have a more manageable amount of debt? I'm also not interested in making 160,000 a year. I mean, as far as I've read on TLS, UF DOES place well in Florida, it is a good price, and it's a good school, so I'd be surprised if you guys couldn't come up with at least some good reason for someone to go to UF.

(as you can see, debt is a big issue for me lol. I'd rather "fail" to be a lawyer and have a manageable amount of debt to pay than "fail" to be a lawyer and have 150,000 to pay.

(other reasons I want UF is that I've lived in Florida all my life and want to stay here, I'm really REALLY bad at making friends and I've NEVER lived in "winter weather" so I just feel like my first semester somewhere up north would involve me being lonely, cold, sad, stressed and miserable, as opposed to here where I have a support system.)

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BlaqBella
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby BlaqBella » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:22 pm

jonjon1324 wrote:I would be willing to do any law work as long as I don't feel as though my work is somehow hurting someone. I just simply don't want to go into the kind of debt I'd be going to at a T14, especially after seeing my friend who's at a top 14 end up with ZERO job offers. Would I rather be getting 0 job offers when I'm 150,000 in debt, or would I rather have a more manageable amount of debt? I'm also not interested in making 160,000 a year. I mean, as far as I've read on TLS, UF DOES place well in Florida, it is a good price, and it's a good school, so I'd be surprised if you guys couldn't come up with at least some good reason for someone to go to UF.

(as you can see, debt is a big issue for me lol. I'd rather "fail" to be a lawyer and have a manageable amount of debt to pay than "fail" to be a lawyer and have 150,000 to pay.

(other reasons I want UF is that I've lived in Florida all my life and want to stay here, I'm really REALLY bad at making friends and I've NEVER lived in "winter weather" so I just feel like my first semester somewhere up north would involve me being lonely, cold, sad, stressed and miserable, as opposed to here where I have a support system.)



Eli Mystal will be proud.

jonjon1324
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby jonjon1324 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:24 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
jonjon1324 wrote:I would be willing to do any law work as long as I don't feel as though my work is somehow hurting someone. I just simply don't want to go into the kind of debt I'd be going to at a T14, especially after seeing my friend who's at a top 14 end up with ZERO job offers. Would I rather be getting 0 job offers when I'm 150,000 in debt, or would I rather have a more manageable amount of debt? I'm also not interested in making 160,000 a year. I mean, as far as I've read on TLS, UF DOES place well in Florida, it is a good price, and it's a good school, so I'd be surprised if you guys couldn't come up with at least some good reason for someone to go to UF.

(as you can see, debt is a big issue for me lol. I'd rather "fail" to be a lawyer and have a manageable amount of debt to pay than "fail" to be a lawyer and have 150,000 to pay.

(other reasons I want UF is that I've lived in Florida all my life and want to stay here, I'm really REALLY bad at making friends and I've NEVER lived in "winter weather" so I just feel like my first semester somewhere up north would involve me being lonely, cold, sad, stressed and miserable, as opposed to here where I have a support system.)



Eli Mystal will be proud.

?

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thelawyler
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby thelawyler » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:38 pm

Option 3: not go to law school and have ZERO debt load!

EDIT: to not sound like a troll, that should be a viable third option. More on UF: --LinkRemoved--

It costs $128k. Would I take a T14 for 200k over UF for 125k? Every fucking time. You'd even have a higher chance of being able to "help people" over your 40 year career. Worth thinking about. The first step in helping others is making sure you're not one of those people who need help.

jonjon1324
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby jonjon1324 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:53 pm

Im in state so i really doubt id have that kind of debt

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thelawyler
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby thelawyler » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:03 pm

jonjon1324 wrote:Im in state so i really doubt id have that kind of debt


Well unless you have money saved or live with parents/spouse, yes, yes you will. Look at the link again. If you were out of state, it'd be 200k. In state is about 80k cheaper. Tuition (19000 x 3) + Living (16000 x 3) = 105,000. Add in your interest on your loans and increasing tuition costs and you're looking at about 125k. Sorry.

Also, remember that you have a 40% shot of not being ever employed in any legal profession when you graduate from there,which beats the 50% rate nationwide (40k JDs graduated last year and only 20k got legal jobs, according to the wall street journal), but it isn't an impressive stat by any means when you're going 125k in debt.

The LSAT is learnable. If you can't push yourself to beat that game, perhaps it is time to really re-evaluate as the law employment game is not any easier than that test. Kill the LSAT to have a T14 option and a big scholly option at UF.

jonjon1324
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby jonjon1324 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Ive been living in Gainesville for 4 years, 16,000 is WAYY too high an estimate for cost of living

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IAFG
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Re: Missing Big Law = Poverty?

Postby IAFG » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:27 pm

jwinaz wrote:
Bronte wrote:The problem is no so much that other jobs don't pay enough it's that other jobs are scarce. Government hiring has been very slow. Most importantly with regard to your question, the ideal of a midsize law firm that pays $80,000 to freshly-minted JDs is very rare. Midsize and small law firms do not have the resources to train new JDs and thus usually only hire experienced attorneys.

Here's a good article on law firm salaries: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... wyer-jobs/. It will confirm that your $80,000 a year salary is very, very rare.



Hmmm. This is interesting.

I'm very surprised that a lawyer could make $40K or less. I'll try to confirm these numbers elsewhere. My only question is how this looks, if it's true, years later for these graduates? Let's suppose a new law graduate really does make $50K a year, but what about 5 years down the line? I noticed that data was for the class of 2011. So, these are entry level salaries.

Why on earth would that surprise you?

Image

And yes, those are starting salaries, but lawyers making $50k yr one aren't making $160k at yr 10.

That is why law school is generally regarded as a bad idea, leading to a decrease in applications for law schools.




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