Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

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Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible?

Yes
120
50%
No
78
32%
F___ Y__
26
11%
Why?
13
5%
WITIDEven...
5
2%
 
Total votes: 242

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tyro
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby tyro » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:37 am

kwais wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:This question seems as dumb to me as, "Do I need a blazer".
Some of the answers are fucking retarded too though.
LOL at setting the # of law schools seats with the # of JD required jobs.
:lol: :lol:


I love that the most obvious question example is "do I need a blazer," not "is the sky blue" or something. I don't know you but when I read this I pictured some WASP at a cocktail party saying "this question seems as dumb to me as 'do I summer in Nantucket'"

he's this southern pretty boy who thinks he's the shit.

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PDaddy
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:44 am

JamMasterJ wrote:There are about 53 in the T100 that I can't justify cutting. We probably couldn't go quite that low w/o expanding class sizes, but somewhere between 60 and 75 is probably reasonable.


Just 53? The lower half of the top-100 is mostly solid, too.

There are some TT and TTT schools you would want to keep, like Suffolk, Southwestern, etc. Get rid of schools like Cooley, Golden Gate, Thomas Jefferson, John Marshall (both), Texas Southern, and Florida Coastal.

flcath
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby flcath » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:52 am

PDaddy wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:There are about 53 in the T100 that I can't justify cutting. We probably couldn't go quite that low w/o expanding class sizes, but somewhere between 60 and 75 is probably reasonable.


There are some TT and TTT schools you would want to keep, like Suffolk, Southwestern, etc.

Get rid of the Cooleys, the Golden Gateses, the Thomas Jeffersons, and the Florida Coastals.

In all seriousness:

closure by fiat ("I hereby declare and decree that the bottom 75 schools according to U.S. News & World Report [doesn't this just sound ridiculous for a gov't entity to say? would using NLJ 250 placement be better?] shall henceforth and forevermore be defunct, disbanded, and destroyed.") is clearly not the way to go--or, at the very least, it just isn't going to happen.

But this for-profit school bullshit has got to go. The fact that legal education is such a money-making scam that a hedge fund has started opening up multiple law schools run for the benefit of shareholders reflects poorly on all of us.

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emkay625
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby emkay625 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:56 am

There would be no actual way to do it by rankings. What would have to happen is the govt. would have to say we will not issue student loans unless X% of graduates can pay them back without any form of assistance in a timely manner.

I think this would force several schools to close or to severely cut tuition/raise scholarships.

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PDaddy
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:59 am

emkay625 wrote:There would be no actual way to do it by rankings. What would have to happen is the govt. would have to say we will not issue student loans unless X% of graduates can pay them back without any form of assistance in a timely manner.

I think this would force several schools to close or to severely cut tuition/raise scholarships.


+1

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laxbrah420
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:03 am

flcath wrote:What is the obvious answer to the question "do I need a blazer?" I would think you don't, actually, though I feel like that's not the answer laxbrah felt was obvious.

The more important question for laxbrah: do you think the government should continue to artificially inflate the number of law schools/graduates by providing gubmint funding to dumb-as-shit 22-year-olds? Or should we let the free market (i.e., cut student loans) drive that number down to its natural state?

a. The obvious answer is to buy a blazer if you like wearing blazers.
b. This question is not even in the same ballpark as the OPs. Though the gumbint seems to peg its loan programs to ABA accreditation, the ABA is independent. The fact that private loans are at virtually the same rate kind of makes your point seem dumb too. Also, your notion of a "natural state" of education is outrageous considering the pervasiveness of public education and the implications of restricting it only to students it deems worthy.

If the administrators of the bar exam want to make the exam more difficult, so be it. But to suggest that schools should be closed because they're producing unemployed, but not necessarily incompetent lawyers is insanity.

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laxbrah420
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:14 am

tyro wrote:he's this southern pretty boy who thinks he's the shit.

QFP

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BVest
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby BVest » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:02 am

Point of Clarification:

Is the option "F___ Y__" meant to be "F___ You" or "F___ Yes"?

rad lulz
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:07 am

laxbrah420 wrote:
tyro wrote:he's this southern pretty boy who thinks he's the shit.

QFP

You're a Yankee. HTH.

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Broseidon
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby Broseidon » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:08 am

rad lulz wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:
tyro wrote:he's this southern pretty boy who thinks he's the shit.

QFP

You're a Yankee. HTH.

Where in dixie you from, breh?

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swc65
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby swc65 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:16 am

tedalbany wrote:No, there would be a shortage unless each school upped enrollment to 600. We need about 150 schools with ~200 students each.



I think this is key. If we capped # of schools, the remaining schools would just up their enrollment and it wouldn't change anything. Capping the number of graduates is def. antitrust territory (unless you're the AMA, ADA, etc)

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BVest
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby BVest » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:29 am

swc65 wrote:I think this is key. If we capped # of schools, the remaining schools would just up their enrollment and it wouldn't change anything. Capping the number of graduates is def. antitrust territory (unless you're the AMA, ADA, etc)


In what way do you think AMA, ADA, etc., are exempt from antitrust concerns. I can assure you that antitrust is the primary legal concern for large associations.

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rayiner
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby rayiner » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:45 am

flcath wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:There are about 53 in the T100 that I can't justify cutting. We probably couldn't go quite that low w/o expanding class sizes, but somewhere between 60 and 75 is probably reasonable.


There are some TT and TTT schools you would want to keep, like Suffolk, Southwestern, etc.

Get rid of the Cooleys, the Golden Gateses, the Thomas Jeffersons, and the Florida Coastals.

In all seriousness:

closure by fiat ("I hereby declare and decree that the bottom 75 schools according to U.S. News & World Report [doesn't this just sound ridiculous for a gov't entity to say? would using NLJ 250 placement be better?] shall henceforth and forevermore be defunct, disbanded, and destroyed.") is clearly not the way to go--or, at the very least, it just isn't going to happen.

But this for-profit school bullshit has got to go. The fact that legal education is such a money-making scam that a hedge fund has started opening up multiple law schools run for the benefit of shareholders reflects poorly on all of us.


For profit schools need to be closed and private schools need to lose their tax exemptions. Public schools need to be banned from using "peer compensation" in their compensation benchmarks.

I read through the UVA budget recently, and they have a line where they're like "we're raising faculty salaries 4.5% to keep us in line with our 80th %-ile benchmark of salaries at our peer institutions." No wonder UVA's expenditures have increased 80% in the last decade with only 9% enrollment growth!

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swc65
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby swc65 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:59 am

BVest wrote:
swc65 wrote:I think this is key. If we capped # of schools, the remaining schools would just up their enrollment and it wouldn't change anything. Capping the number of graduates is def. antitrust territory (unless you're the AMA, ADA, etc)


In what way do you think AMA, ADA, etc., are exempt from antitrust concerns. I can assure you that antitrust is the primary legal concern for large associations.


Sorry the AAMC, really controls new schools and enrollment. I think, in 2005, they open the first new med school in 20 years!!

I am not saying they are EXEMPT from antitrust concerns. Just that they seem to be more successful at controlling their market.

There are other factors too such as Congress limiting spending on medical residencies etc etc.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:10 am

Op - each state needs 3 law schools with 200 students each. Any state that is under served would attract lawyers from out of state schools (CA, NY, TX, DC, PA, MA, OH, GA, and FL would be magnets).

That's one of the few rational and relatively fair ways of distributing seats and law schools across the states. Most other ideas involve subjectively picking and choosing based off of rank.

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laxbrah420
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:19 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Op - each state needs 3 law schools with 200 students each. Any state that is under served would attract lawyers from out of state schools (CA, NY, TX, DC, PA, MA, OH, GA, and FL would be magnets).

That's one of the few rational and relatively fair ways of distributing seats and law schools across the states. Most other ideas involve subjectively picking and choosing based off of rank.

WTF is going on in this thread?
Why is 3 per state fair or rational?

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Nova
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby Nova » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:24 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Op - each state needs 3 law schools with 200 students each.


Youre joking right? North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, Alaska, Montana....

I think slashing 50 would be a good start.

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laxbrah420
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:52 am

Would appreciate your feedback ITT:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=187844

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1776
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby 1776 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:08 pm

Anyone think that if the number of schools were limited, the schools would just accept a lot more people to make more money?

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Broseidon
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby Broseidon » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:09 pm

1776 wrote:Anyone think that if the number of schools were limited, the schools would just accept a lot more people to make more money?

Reading before poasting is usually helpful.

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androstan
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby androstan » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:12 pm

Any number/criterion/etc. you name will be close to arbitrary. Ficath is right, you cannot do this by fiat decree. The free market is a good model to start with, and sometimes works on its own, but usually works much better with some intelligent policies and legal control. When the government intervenes stupidly in the free market, it usually functions much, much worse. The government needs to behave like a rational actor. A rational actor does not lend unlimited supplies of money to individuals without even a cursory evaluation of the risk. That creates a bubble. Federal student loans need to be contingent on the institution's employment statistics and the students' ultimate ability to repay the loans. A rational risk-assessment needs to be performed, just as in any private company.

Also, we need rigid enforcement of transparency and honesty. Honesty in spirit, not merely technical truth.

Do those two things. Then, the right schools will close or cut enrollments.

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laxbrah420
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:15 pm

androstan wrote:Any number/criterion/etc. you name will be close to arbitrary. Ficath is right, you cannot do this by fiat decree. The free market is a good model to start with, and sometimes works on its own, but usually works much better with some intelligent policies and legal control. When the government intervenes stupidly in the free market, it usually functions much, much worse. The government needs to behave like a rational actor. A rational actor does not lend unlimited supplies of money to individuals without even a cursory evaluation of the risk. That creates a bubble. Federal student loans need to be contingent on the institution's employment statistics and the students' ultimate ability to repay the loans. A rational risk-assessment needs to be performed, just as in any private company.

Also, we need rigid enforcement of transparency and honesty. Honesty in spirit, not merely technical truth.

Do those two things. Then, the right schools will close or cut enrollments.

So how many years of schooling in your expert, rational opinion, should the government blindly bankroll? Just K-12? K-Bach?

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:15 pm

PDaddy wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:There are about 53 in the T100 that I can't justify cutting. We probably couldn't go quite that low w/o expanding class sizes, but somewhere between 60 and 75 is probably reasonable.


Just 53? The lower half of the top-100 is mostly solid, too.

There are some TT and TTT schools you would want to keep, like Suffolk, Southwestern, etc. Get rid of schools like Cooley, Golden Gate, Thomas Jefferson, John Marshall (both), Texas Southern, and Florida Coastal.

Like I said, that number is pretty aggressive; we could and probably should keep significantly more. But there are even several T40s that are unnecessary, such as Washington and Lee. I mean, who needs a school that intends to place into the toughest market while there are two better schools and a dozen schools that also gun for the city?

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laxbrah420
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:21 pm

Is the argument here that potentially good lawyers are not entering law school anymore because of the grim propects? Do we have evidence to suggest that the quality of lawyers in our country has suffered as a result of over enrollment?

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Should the # of law schools be capped at 50 were it possible

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:22 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:Is the argument here that potentially good lawyers are not entering law school anymore because of the grim propects? Do we have evidence to suggest that the quality of lawyers in our country has suffered as a result of over enrollment?

that may be a side effect, but I don't think that that's the main point at issue.




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