law vs banking-which career is tougher?

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rayiner
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:54 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:Investment banking you will make a shit ton more money than as a lawyer. In the good years, after 2 years, many bankers would be hired by PE shops and get paid 2-3X as much 1st year associates make. It's harder to get these positions now, but I know people that have done it.


This is the difference between lawyers and bankers. Lawyers talk about ITE and what happens to the bottom half. Bankers talk about boom times and what happens to the top 10-20%.

Take a look at senior partner compensation at PE funds in 2011: --LinkRemoved-- (pg. 9).

Total compensation (salary+bonus+carry) at the median was $500k at small outfits to $2.3m at large outfits. At the associate level nobody is making 3x law firm associate salary (= 3x 160 = $480k). Very few are making even half that: http://www.wallstreetprep.com/knowledge ... ate-equity.

jim-green
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby jim-green » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:49 pm

I
Last edited by jim-green on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aca0260
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby aca0260 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:59 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:Investment Banks have trading floors, but traders are not investment bankers, and if you called a trader an investment banker they would probably be pissed off. Investment banking you will make a shit ton more money than as a lawyer. In the good years, after 2 years, many bankers would be hired by PE shops and get paid 2-3X as much 1st year associates make. It's harder to get these positions now, but I know people that have done it. To me, PE is more interesting than law because I like/miss numbers and you are the people (firm) actually taking on the risk/getting the reward of the deal. Banking can vary as too what you do (from underwriting/negotiating/crunching numbers/etc)

Also, whoever said traders are lower rung than Ibankers are morons. Trading is the most profitable wing of major investment banks and will probably continue to be since Volcker is a 500 page lobbyist's dream mess. Traders after their 2nd year make a % of what they earn, its all performance based and those people are probably some of the smartest i've ever met. People that are good traders will be making well over 1 mill by the time they are thirty. But trading is probably the most stressful job, my friends had no life for 2 years and at 25 want to quit and be musicians in brazil...shit burns you out.


This is all accurate.

$$$$$$
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby $$$$$$ » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:08 pm

rayiner wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:Investment banking you will make a shit ton more money than as a lawyer. In the good years, after 2 years, many bankers would be hired by PE shops and get paid 2-3X as much 1st year associates make. It's harder to get these positions now, but I know people that have done it.


This is the difference between lawyers and bankers. Lawyers talk about ITE and what happens to the bottom half. Bankers talk about boom times and what happens to the top 10-20%.

Take a look at senior partner compensation at PE funds in 2011: --LinkRemoved-- (pg. 9).

Total compensation (salary+bonus+carry) at the median was $500k at small outfits to $2.3m at large outfits. At the associate level nobody is making 3x law firm associate salary (= 3x 160 = $480k). Very few are making even half that: http://www.wallstreetprep.com/knowledge ... ate-equity.


I don't know anyone with a first year offer less than $350K Base at PE shops, no matter what city they were moving too. And these are kids that graduated college in 2009. I don't know their bonuses, but i'm sure they are obscene and way too much for a 25 year old idiot with 2 years of banking experience and may meet the 3X law firm salary mark. PE seems pretty awesome and is the most useful in my opinion because it teaches you how to actually invest and build companies at various levels in their evolution.

Lets get this straight, either profession pays associates far too much money for their actual worth, and the work, while being super awesome WSJ topping shit, can be total boring crap unless you actually do PE or trade. If I could do it over again I wouldn't do either, because money is not the end all be all of happiness, and most people I know that make this kind of money are totally fucking miserable and take solace in letting me know it with the "but the money is excellent" positive spin.

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laxbrah420
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby laxbrah420 » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:16 pm

jim-green wrote:I would say do software instead if you want the $$$. Neither Bill Gates nor Zuckerberg is a lawyer or IB. Or become a big Hollywood star. Tom Cruise makes more $$ than many big law partners.

:lol:

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dingbat
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:20 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:
rayiner wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:Investment banking you will make a shit ton more money than as a lawyer. In the good years, after 2 years, many bankers would be hired by PE shops and get paid 2-3X as much 1st year associates make. It's harder to get these positions now, but I know people that have done it.


This is the difference between lawyers and bankers. Lawyers talk about ITE and what happens to the bottom half. Bankers talk about boom times and what happens to the top 10-20%.

Take a look at senior partner compensation at PE funds in 2011: --LinkRemoved-- (pg. 9).

Total compensation (salary+bonus+carry) at the median was $500k at small outfits to $2.3m at large outfits. At the associate level nobody is making 3x law firm associate salary (= 3x 160 = $480k). Very few are making even half that: http://www.wallstreetprep.com/knowledge ... ate-equity.


I don't know anyone with a first year offer less than $350K Base at PE shops, no matter what city they were moving too. And these are kids that graduated college in 2009. I don't know their bonuses, but i'm sure they are obscene and way too much for a 25 year old idiot with 2 years of banking experience and may meet the 3X law firm salary mark. PE seems pretty awesome and is the most useful in my opinion because it teaches you how to actually invest and build companies at various levels in their evolution.

Lets get this straight, either profession pays associates far too much money for their actual worth, and the work, while being super awesome WSJ topping shit, can be total boring crap unless you actually do PE or trade. If I could do it over again I wouldn't do either, because money is not the end all be all of happiness, and most people I know that make this kind of money are totally fucking miserable and take solace in letting me know it with the "but the money is excellent" positive spin.

those kids are the exception, not the rule.
I do find it hard to believe that these are kids who graduated college in 2009.
Before I call bull, a few questions:
Where did they go to college?
What were their grades?
Where did they work straight out of college? What department? What kind of work?
(Do they have any connections that helped them get the job?)

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rayiner
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:26 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:
rayiner wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:Investment banking you will make a shit ton more money than as a lawyer. In the good years, after 2 years, many bankers would be hired by PE shops and get paid 2-3X as much 1st year associates make. It's harder to get these positions now, but I know people that have done it.


This is the difference between lawyers and bankers. Lawyers talk about ITE and what happens to the bottom half. Bankers talk about boom times and what happens to the top 10-20%.

Take a look at senior partner compensation at PE funds in 2011: --LinkRemoved-- (pg. 9).

Total compensation (salary+bonus+carry) at the median was $500k at small outfits to $2.3m at large outfits. At the associate level nobody is making 3x law firm associate salary (= 3x 160 = $480k). Very few are making even half that: http://www.wallstreetprep.com/knowledge ... ate-equity.


I don't know anyone with a first year offer less than $350K Base at PE shops, no matter what city they were moving too. And these are kids that graduated college in 2009. I don't know their bonuses, but i'm sure they are obscene and way too much for a 25 year old idiot with 2 years of banking experience and may meet the 3X law firm salary mark. PE seems pretty awesome and is the most useful in my opinion because it teaches you how to actually invest and build companies at various levels in their evolution.


Not even at KKR/Blackstone are they giving first year associates $350k base. I'm calling flame.

$$$$$$
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby $$$$$$ » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:43 pm

dingbat wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:
rayiner wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:Investment banking you will make a shit ton more money than as a lawyer. In the good years, after 2 years, many bankers would be hired by PE shops and get paid 2-3X as much 1st year associates make. It's harder to get these positions now, but I know people that have done it.


This is the difference between lawyers and bankers. Lawyers talk about ITE and what happens to the bottom half. Bankers talk about boom times and what happens to the top 10-20%.

Take a look at senior partner compensation at PE funds in 2011: --LinkRemoved-- (pg. 9).

Total compensation (salary+bonus+carry) at the median was $500k at small outfits to $2.3m at large outfits. At the associate level nobody is making 3x law firm associate salary (= 3x 160 = $480k). Very few are making even half that: http://www.wallstreetprep.com/knowledge ... ate-equity.


I don't know anyone with a first year offer less than $350K Base at PE shops, no matter what city they were moving too. And these are kids that graduated college in 2009. I don't know their bonuses, but i'm sure they are obscene and way too much for a 25 year old idiot with 2 years of banking experience and may meet the 3X law firm salary mark. PE seems pretty awesome and is the most useful in my opinion because it teaches you how to actually invest and build companies at various levels in their evolution.

Lets get this straight, either profession pays associates far too much money for their actual worth, and the work, while being super awesome WSJ topping shit, can be total boring crap unless you actually do PE or trade. If I could do it over again I wouldn't do either, because money is not the end all be all of happiness, and most people I know that make this kind of money are totally fucking miserable and take solace in letting me know it with the "but the money is excellent" positive spin.

those kids are the exception, not the rule.
I do find it hard to believe that these are kids who graduated college in 2009.
Before I call bull, a few questions:
Where did they go to college?
What were their grades?
Where did they work straight out of college? What department? What kind of work?
(Do they have any connections that helped them get the job?)



Colleges: Targets
Grades: Absurd
Work Experience: Top Ibanks and Prestigious Boutiques / Departments: Large Range (tech - healthcare - consumer products - etc) / work: varies from project to project (lots of m&a work tho)
Connections: Fuck Tons (sucks to be middle class like me)

This is based off of about 12-15 people I know personally and from what they told me. They could be full of shit, but not many of these people are friends and they all had similar stories/compensation numbers. From what I've read about everything and going to business school and talking to people, these numbers are fairly accurate.

To all TLS people, if you want to learn about this stuff, go to Wallstreetoasis.com, not TLS

edit: done arguing with law students about finance jobs, but if anyone is interested, go to the site I list above, it is a TLS wonderland for finance people. I used it for interviews in college and literally got asked questions listed on the forums word for word...shit was hilarious.

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rayiner
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:47 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:This is based off of about 12-15 people I know personally and from what they told me. They could be full of shit, but not many of these people are friends and they all had similar stories/compensation numbers. From what I've read about everything and going to business school and talking to people, these numbers are fairly accurate.

To all TLS people, if you want to learn about this stuff, go to Wallstreetoasis.com, not TLS


Uh: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/salary/p ... mpensation.
Also: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/h ... ib-jumpers.

Nobody is offering $350k base to people after 2 years analyst experience. You're either a flame or misunderstanding how their compensation is structured/how much experience they have.

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dingbat
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:12 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:Colleges: Targets
Grades: Absurd
Work Experience: Top Ibanks and Prestigious Boutiques / Departments: Large Range (tech - healthcare - consumer products - etc) / work: varies from project to project (lots of m&a work tho)
Connections: Fuck Tons (sucks to be middle class like me)

This is based off of about 12-15 people I know personally and from what they told me. They could be full of shit, but not many of these people are friends and they all had similar stories/compensation numbers. From what I've read about everything and going to business school and talking to people, these numbers are fairly accurate.

To all TLS people, if you want to learn about this stuff, go to Wallstreetoasis.com, not TLS

edit: done arguing with law students about finance jobs, but if anyone is interested, go to the site I list above, it is a TLS wonderland for finance people. I used it for interviews in college and literally got asked questions listed on the forums word for word...shit was hilarious.

I presume with "target" you are referring to Harvard, Wharton and (crap, I forgot, but I'll fix this later). Are you talking UG or MBA? if an MBA, what level did they reach before starting?
Grades "Absurd" do you mean 4.0? Yeah, they can get fast-tracked
When you mention work experience, did any of them make it past the associate level? No way is an associate from an IB getting anything other than associate at PE (with a small pay bump)
Connections can make a hell of a difference. If daddy owns the firm, then, yeah, you can skip to the head of the line. But that's not entirely a fair comparison.

As an FYI, there are board members at Fortune 500 companies who don't make half a million a year.

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rayiner
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:19 pm

dingbat wrote:
$$$$$$ wrote:Colleges: Targets
Grades: Absurd
Work Experience: Top Ibanks and Prestigious Boutiques / Departments: Large Range (tech - healthcare - consumer products - etc) / work: varies from project to project (lots of m&a work tho)
Connections: Fuck Tons (sucks to be middle class like me)

This is based off of about 12-15 people I know personally and from what they told me. They could be full of shit, but not many of these people are friends and they all had similar stories/compensation numbers. From what I've read about everything and going to business school and talking to people, these numbers are fairly accurate.

To all TLS people, if you want to learn about this stuff, go to Wallstreetoasis.com, not TLS

edit: done arguing with law students about finance jobs, but if anyone is interested, go to the site I list above, it is a TLS wonderland for finance people. I used it for interviews in college and literally got asked questions listed on the forums word for word...shit was hilarious.

I presume with "target" you are referring to Harvard, Wharton and (crap, I forgot, but I'll fix this later). Are you talking UG or MBA? if an MBA, what level did they reach before starting?
Grades "Absurd" do you mean 4.0? Yeah, they can get fast-tracked
When you mention work experience, did any of them make it past the associate level? No way is an associate from an IB getting anything other than associate at PE (with a small pay bump)
Connections can make a hell of a difference. If daddy owns the firm, then, yeah, you can skip to the head of the line. But that's not entirely a fair comparison.

As an FYI, there are board members at Fortune 500 companies who don't make half a million a year.


Dingbat, what's more likely here. That this guy's friends have special hookups that get them salaries way above what WSO reports, or that this guy is a flame?

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dingbat
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:23 pm

rayiner wrote:Dingbat, what's more likely here. That this guy's friends have special hookups that get them salaries way above what WSO reports, or that this guy is a flame?

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
it's possible. Guy I used to work with had plenty of friends with great hookups - but was SOL himself.
But yeah, this guy is either a flame or a moron. Hope he ends up in my section :twisted:

partypajamas
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby partypajamas » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:17 pm

going to be a freshman at USC....sorry i dont know any of this stuff. just trying to get some career info is all. Transferring in as PR major..?

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dingbat
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Re: law vs banking-which career is tougher?

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:39 pm

partypajamas wrote:going to be a freshman at USC....sorry i dont know any of this stuff. just trying to get some career info is all. Transferring in as PR major..?

Both careers are a tough grind and a major bitch. Both can be very lucrative if you survive long enough and make it up the ranks - which isn't easy in either field.
If you're better at reading/writing, go with law; if you're better with numbers, go with finance.
Accounting and Consulting are equally valid options

You have time, find someone in said professions who can give you more detail, or better yet, will let you shadow them for a day




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