Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

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WODKilla123
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby WODKilla123 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:04 pm

meh. I will concede that Penn does look strong from that '06 data. But I still think NYU is way closer to CLS than Penn in terms of placement power into elite firms (not raw totals). Here's why:

(1) See anecdotal treatment of GPA cutoffs by current V15 biglawyer hiring associates/partners, posted above.

(2) NYU is just a stronger school with more prestige, driven by a stronger student body.

(2a)
Columbia 170/175 (2013 USNWR score: 94)
NYU 170/174 (2013 USNWR score: 92)
Penn 166/171 (2013 USNWR score: 87)

(3) Also, remember NYU is the natural choice for PI gunners that struck out of HYS with one of the most generous LRAP programs in the T14, with deep ties to several prestigious PI organizations.

(4) Don't evar forget 2012 Entry Level Academia Hiring:

From --LinkRemoved--

Y 4
H 13
S 7
Col 3
Chi 3
NYU 11
V 4
M 0
P 2
B 2
D 1
C 1
N 2
G 10

(5) and most importantly.......DAT MAMOUNS!! bomb tasting falafel bros. Amirite?

r6_philly
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:15 pm

The better NYU is with elite firms, the better Penn is with the firms that 90% of the students have a shot at. (since NYU is worse than Penn with NLJ250 firms). I hope most people are not making their school choices base on their chances at DPW.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:24 pm

While I have no foot in this race, the information that you provide really doesn't mean anything.

1. Neither school is good for academia.
2. No 0L cares if they work at a V15 as long as they have an NLJ or a different firm at market rate. I'll concede that NYU is stronger for "elite" (V20) elite firms (NLJ), but Penn is better for elite firms (NLJ) overall.
3. I'm not sure who believes that NYU is more prestigious than Penn outside of US News rankings.
4. It's impossible to compare PI placement vs. NLJ firm placement. If NYU is known for PI, great - go there if you want PI. Penn, on the other hand, seems to consistently outperform NYU in clerkships+firms (which is what 80%+ of prospective law school students want).

run26.2
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby run26.2 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:26 pm

WODKilla123 wrote:meh. I will concede that Penn does look strong from that '06 data. But I still think NYU is way closer to CLS than Penn in terms of placement power into elite firms (not raw totals). Here's why:

(1) See anecdotal treatment of GPA cutoffs by current V15 biglawyer hiring associates/partners, posted above.

(2) NYU is just a stronger school with more prestige, driven by a stronger student body.

(2a)
Columbia 170/175 (2013 USNWR score: 94)
NYU 170/174 (2013 USNWR score: 92)
Penn 166/171 (2013 USNWR score: 87)

(3) Also, remember NYU is the natural choice for PI gunners that struck out of HYS with one of the most generous LRAP programs in the T14, with deep ties to several prestigious PI organizations.

(4) Don't evar forget 2012 Entry Level Academia Hiring:

From --LinkRemoved--

Y 4
H 13
S 7
Col 3
Chi 3
NYU 11
V 4
M 0
P 2
B 2
D 1
C 1
N 2
G 10

(5) and most importantly.......DAT MAMOUNS!! bomb tasting falafel bros. Amirite?

The GPA discussion could hardly be called anecdotal. More like anecdote about anecdote. I wouldn't call that reliable. There were no numbers cited.

Yeah, NYU has an advantage in academia and at DPW and STB. But Penn wins in the NLJ 250. I would take the latter.
Last edited by run26.2 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:28 pm

Yes, more or less

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rayiner
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:33 pm

WODKilla123 wrote:meh. I will concede that Penn does look strong from that '06 data. But I still think NYU is way closer to CLS than Penn in terms of placement power into elite firms (not raw totals). Here's why:

(1) See anecdotal treatment of GPA cutoffs by current V15 biglawyer hiring associates/partners, posted above.

(2) NYU is just a stronger school with more prestige, driven by a stronger student body.

(2a)
Columbia 170/175 (2013 USNWR score: 94)
NYU 170/174 (2013 USNWR score: 92)
Penn 166/171 (2013 USNWR score: 87)

(3) Also, remember NYU is the natural choice for PI gunners that struck out of HYS with one of the most generous LRAP programs in the T14, with deep ties to several prestigious PI organizations.

(4) Don't evar forget 2012 Entry Level Academia Hiring:

From --LinkRemoved--

Y 4
H 13
S 7
Col 3
Chi 3
NYU 11
V 4
M 0
P 2
B 2
D 1
C 1
N 2
G 10

(5) and most importantly.......DAT MAMOUNS!! bomb tasting falafel bros. Amirite?


So you're going to ignore all the actual placement data, and base your assessment on one anecdote from one firm and a bunch of completely irrelevant metrics?

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rayiner
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:34 pm

run26.2 wrote:Yeah, NYU has an advantage in academia and at DPW and STB. But Penn wins in the NLJ 250. I would take the latter.


Just DPW. STB has more associates from Penn on a class size-adjusted basis.

NYU, stronger for V = 5 biglaw.

WODKilla123
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby WODKilla123 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:38 pm

So it's just chill now to drop point #5?

r6_philly
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:40 pm

WODKilla123 wrote:So it's just chill now to drop point #5?


lol how you characterized point #5 is enough reason for me to not choose NYU.

run26.2
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby run26.2 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:41 pm

rayiner wrote:
run26.2 wrote:Yeah, NYU has an advantage in academia and at DPW and STB. But Penn wins in the NLJ 250. I would take the latter.


Just DPW. STB has more associates from Penn on a class size-adjusted basis.

NYU, stronger for V = 5 biglaw.

Yeah. I was recalling the partnership data I was looking at yesterday.

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Pate
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby Pate » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:56 pm

rayiner wrote:So you're going to ignore all the actual placement data, and base your assessment on one anecdote from one firm and a bunch of completely irrelevant metrics?

I tend to be agreeable with your observations. But the data below certainly has the feel of a “blowout.”

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2

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moonman157
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby moonman157 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:56 pm

Boy I hope I get into Columbia so that I don't have to make this decision

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rayiner
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:57 pm

Pate wrote:
rayiner wrote:So you're going to ignore all the actual placement data, and base your assessment on one anecdote from one firm and a bunch of completely irrelevant metrics?

I tend to be agreeable with your observations. But the data below certainly has the feel of a “blowout.”

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


That's just DPW. For summer 2010 DPW had 4 NU, 5 UVA, and 2 Chicago. NU/UVA >> Chicago/Penn?

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Pate
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby Pate » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:04 pm

rayiner wrote:
Pate wrote:
rayiner wrote:So you're going to ignore all the actual placement data, and base your assessment on one anecdote from one firm and a bunch of completely irrelevant metrics?

I tend to be agreeable with your observations. But the data below certainly has the feel of a “blowout.”

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


That's just DPW. For summer 2010 DPW had 4 NU, 5 UVA, and 2 Chicago. NU/UVA >> Chicago/Penn?

My thread skimming needs help. :oops: Thanks.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby HarlandBassett » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:05 pm

moonman157 wrote:Boy I hope I get into Columbia so that I don't have to make this decision

check the NYU vs. Columbia threads :D

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moonman157
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby moonman157 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:15 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Boy I hope I get into Columbia so that I don't have to make this decision

check the NYU vs. Columbia threads :D


Haha oh I have. I definitely have a preference for Columbia, though money could complicate things.

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KevinP
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby KevinP » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:26 pm

moonman157 wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
moonman157 wrote:Boy I hope I get into Columbia so that I don't have to make this decision

check the NYU vs. Columbia threads :D


Haha oh I have. I definitely have a preference for Columbia, though money could complicate things.

Can't go wrong with that lay preftige, brother.

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rayiner
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:39 pm

Penn with even a little money >> CLS. The prestige difference is irrelevant. It's not like CLS is HLS.

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KevinP
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby KevinP » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:58 pm

rayiner wrote:Penn with even a little money >> CLS. The prestige difference is irrelevant. It's not like CLS is HLS.

Donno about Penn, but if we are talking about NYU vs CLS, CLS easily takes the lay preftige cake, although Penn/NYU + $ is usually a smarter move than CLS + sticker.

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rayiner
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:30 pm

KevinP wrote:
rayiner wrote:Penn with even a little money >> CLS. The prestige difference is irrelevant. It's not like CLS is HLS.

Donno about Penn, but if we are talking about NYU vs CLS, CLS easily takes the lay preftige cake, although Penn/NYU + $ is usually a smarter move than CLS + sticker.


Outside NYC, NYU has more lay prestige than CLS. Columbia doesn't have a good football team, it's not a top college pick among "normal people" who want to major in theater arts, and nobody famous went there.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby HarlandBassett » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:37 pm

rayiner wrote:Just DPW. STB has more associates from Penn on a class size-adjusted basis.

NYU, stronger for V = 5 biglaw.

what's that statistical term for not adjusting for class size when comparing the raw numbers of lawyers at XYZ firms? (the term eludes me at the current moment....sampling bias?)

ajaxconstructions
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby ajaxconstructions » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:38 pm

rayiner wrote:
KevinP wrote:
rayiner wrote:Penn with even a little money >> CLS. The prestige difference is irrelevant. It's not like CLS is HLS.

Donno about Penn, but if we are talking about NYU vs CLS, CLS easily takes the lay preftige cake, although Penn/NYU + $ is usually a smarter move than CLS + sticker.


Outside NYC, NYU has more lay prestige than CLS. Columbia doesn't have a good football team, it's not a top college pick among "normal people" who want to major in theater arts, and nobody famous went there.


Not true for outside the country though. Not like international lay prestige matters much.

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KevinP
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby KevinP » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:45 pm

rayiner wrote:
KevinP wrote:
rayiner wrote:Penn with even a little money >> CLS. The prestige difference is irrelevant. It's not like CLS is HLS.

Donno about Penn, but if we are talking about NYU vs CLS, CLS easily takes the lay preftige cake, although Penn/NYU + $ is usually a smarter move than CLS + sticker.


Outside NYC, NYU has more lay prestige than CLS. Columbia doesn't have a good football team, it's not a top college pick among "normal people" who want to major in theater arts, and nobody famous went there.

Can't tell if srs. Columbia is an Ivy, a research power house, and the famous people that attended there (if we are talking about Columbia in general) include Obama, Roosevelts, and Buffet.

Although anecdotal, I'm foreign-born but grew up on the West Coast. I've never even heard of NYU before TLS, and almost everyone I've talked to so far (both on the West Coast and my native country) knows about Columbia and is impressed. Very few know about NYU.
Last edited by KevinP on Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

r6_philly
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:45 pm

rayiner wrote:
KevinP wrote:
rayiner wrote:Penn with even a little money >> CLS. The prestige difference is irrelevant. It's not like CLS is HLS.

Donno about Penn, but if we are talking about NYU vs CLS, CLS easily takes the lay preftige cake, although Penn/NYU + $ is usually a smarter move than CLS + sticker.


Outside NYC, NYU has more lay prestige than CLS. Columbia doesn't have a good football team, it's not a top college pick among "normal people" who want to major in theater arts, and nobody famous went there.


That's sort of how I feel about NYU.

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rayiner
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Re: Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:15 pm

KevinP wrote:
rayiner wrote:
KevinP wrote:
rayiner wrote:Penn with even a little money >> CLS. The prestige difference is irrelevant. It's not like CLS is HLS.

Donno about Penn, but if we are talking about NYU vs CLS, CLS easily takes the lay preftige cake, although Penn/NYU + $ is usually a smarter move than CLS + sticker.


Outside NYC, NYU has more lay prestige than CLS. Columbia doesn't have a good football team, it's not a top college pick among "normal people" who want to major in theater arts, and nobody famous went there.

Can't tell if srs. Columbia is an Ivy, a research power house, and the famous people that attended there (if we are talking about Columbia in general) include Obama, Roosevelts, and Buffet.


Totally serious. HYP are the only Ivies people can remember, probably because they're the only ones regularly used in movies and TV. Columbia doesn't do research in any area people are usually familiar with (unlike MIT which always comes up in the engineering context, Stanford which always comes up in the startup/Silicon Valley context or Johns Hopkins which always comes up in the medical context). It's rarely brought up in the context of Obama (U Chicago and Harvard are). Buffet got an M.S. from Columbia, and nobody has any idea where most dead presidents went to college.

I have no particular axe to grind against Columbia. It's just that if you're going to pick between schools based on lay prestige, you should at least pick a school that people generally recognize.




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