Legal market in three years

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SaintsTheMetal
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby SaintsTheMetal » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:35 pm

ahnhub wrote:There are always options, and the vast majority don't involve losing 3 years of your working life and going into six-figure debt. I can list dozens of professions off the top of my head which will be more in demand than lawyers: programming, nursing, engineering, sales, accounting, etc....sure most of those aren't doing great either, but generally they're doing better than law.

I'm older and I don't want to start from the bottom, so biglaw is attractive to me. If I were graduating from college right now, I would stay the heck away from law, unless I got into a T-14 with lots of $$$$ (and even then, I'd explore other options first)


Do people really pick their profession purely based off perceived job security and money?? Law, nursing, accounting, sales... are all COMPLETELY different jobs and skill sets.. Sure anyone that can get a full ride to a T14 could succeed in Nursing School, with an accounting degree, or whatever, but are you really going to enjoy all of these things??

I guess I was under the impression that most people that are going to law school actually think they would enjoy practicing law.. You're going to spending thousands of hours per year working in whatever field you graduate in... is job security worth a job that make you want to shoot yourself?? Personally I think if you manage to find something that you actually enjoy going to work in the morning, this is much more important than...market growth in your field

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby Scotusnerd » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:41 pm

SaintsTheMetal wrote:Do people really pick their profession purely based off perceived job security and money?? Law, nursing, accounting, sales... are all COMPLETELY different jobs and skill sets.. Sure anyone that can get a full ride to a T14 could succeed in Nursing School, with an accounting degree, or whatever, but are you really going to enjoy all of these things??

I guess I was under the impression that most people that are going to law school actually think they would enjoy practicing law.. You're going to spending thousands of hours per year working in whatever field you graduate in... is job security worth a job that make you want to shoot yourself?? Personally I think if you manage to find something that you actually enjoy going to work in the morning, this is much more important than...market growth in your field



Not everyone does, but some people do seem to focus on income potential. There seems to be two schools of thought on this. One is a group I like to call 'munchkins'. They're the ones that focus on getting the absolute best income for their effort, getting the top of the heap, playing the biglaw-or-bust game. They're the law school equivalent of powergamers (if you've played DnD, you know what I mean... :oops: )

Some of us just want to be lawyers, though. We know the system and work at it, but we're in it because we enjoy writing nerdy things with our lives and being lawyers for whatever godforsaken reason. Prestige, chance to help people, intellectual challenge...whatever. The point is that we are generally not as competitive as the other group, and will likely be happier in the long run.

The trick is figuring out which jobs these munchkins want and avoiding them. :?

Excellent117
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby Excellent117 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:22 pm

Scotusnerd wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:Do people really pick their profession purely based off perceived job security and money?? Law, nursing, accounting, sales... are all COMPLETELY different jobs and skill sets.. Sure anyone that can get a full ride to a T14 could succeed in Nursing School, with an accounting degree, or whatever, but are you really going to enjoy all of these things??

I guess I was under the impression that most people that are going to law school actually think they would enjoy practicing law.. You're going to spending thousands of hours per year working in whatever field you graduate in... is job security worth a job that make you want to shoot yourself?? Personally I think if you manage to find something that you actually enjoy going to work in the morning, this is much more important than...market growth in your field



Not everyone does, but some people do seem to focus on income potential. There seems to be two schools of thought on this. One is a group I like to call 'munchkins'. They're the ones that focus on getting the absolute best income for their effort, getting the top of the heap, playing the biglaw-or-bust game. They're the law school equivalent of powergamers (if you've played DnD, you know what I mean... :oops: )

Some of us just want to be lawyers, though. We know the system and work at it, but we're in it because we enjoy writing nerdy things with our lives and being lawyers for whatever godforsaken reason. Prestige, chance to help people, intellectual challenge...whatever. The point is that we are generally not as competitive as the other group, and will likely be happier in the long run.

The trick is figuring out which jobs these munchkins want and avoiding them. :?


What's wrong with wanting to maximize earning potential?

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby Scotusnerd » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:28 pm

Excellent117 wrote:What's wrong with wanting to maximize earning potential?


Nothing. It's just two different approaches. I'm more interested in law for the nerdy aspect of it than the money.

It is a nice bonus, however.

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manofjustice
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby manofjustice » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:34 pm

ben4847 wrote:question isn't 3 years. It is now June; those entering school this fall will be interviewing for their jobs in 14 months.


We could argue, though, that employers will be looking to the 3 year mark when deciding on the size of their class a year from now. Obviously they'll be risk adverse, but risk cuts both ways. After taking smaller classes for several years, and presumably this year, they might want to make sure they don't take too small a class next year.

jeffyl00b
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby jeffyl00b » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:33 pm

ahnhub wrote:
TrojanHopeful wrote:
ahnhub wrote:Even if the economy improves markedly, there are still some very serious issues which won't change--1) the cost is outrageously high for uncertain results, 2)we have a huge oversupply of lawyers and law grads.

You have to remember that actually, even when the legal industry was expanding rapidly and Biglaw was booming in the mid-2000's, it was still a really bad idea to go to any but a handful of schools.

I'm going to be attending a T-14 school with what amounts to a full-ride this fall, and knowing what I know now I wouldn't go if I had other decent options.


The problem is this....there aren't really any other decent options in this economy (except, of course, a professional baseball player).


There are always options, and the vast majority don't involve losing 3 years of your working life and going into six-figure debt. I can list dozens of professions off the top of my head which will be more in demand than lawyers: programming, nursing, engineering, sales, accounting, etc....sure most of those aren't doing great either, but generally they're doing better than law.

I'm older and I don't want to start from the bottom, so biglaw is attractive to me. If I were graduating from college right now, I would stay the heck away from law, unless I got into a T-14 with lots of $$$$ (and even then, I'd explore other options first)


In addition to what was said, I see a lot of programmers and engineers working in data entry and the like. If you are telling me that going back to school for 4 years for those majors than going to law school for 3 for at least an advanced degree is the way to go, I'm not buying it.
And I used to want to get an accounting degree.

collegebum1989
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby collegebum1989 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:21 pm

Engineering = dead-end job. If you really want to have a tangible impact on your company/field or be lucrative, you either have to move into management or move into academia. Most industry engineers are just part of a company workforce and are usually expendable. The ones who don't move into management, end up having average 9-5s and make about ~100k the rest of their career.

Same can be said for the other jobs in this field (nursing, accounting, etc). Not all professions are created equal. Compensation and advancement is determined by the economic demand for positions and the amount of training required to entire the field. That's why an engineer is paid less than the executive because there's teams of engineers developing products but there are only so many managers who make the decisions on how to proceed. Same reason why in the medical field, nurses are paid less than doctors. Being a doctor requires more more training, and more loans, so they are given more authority and compensated better.

To compare different fields is misleading (lawyer vs. nursing vs. accounting) since each field has different requirements. What's different about law school as a professional school is that since law is so broad, your employment prospects vary based on which field of law you are talking about. Some fields of law are intrinsically more lucrative than others, and similarly others have better employment as well.

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westinghouse60
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby westinghouse60 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:34 am

Scotusnerd wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:Do people really pick their profession purely based off perceived job security and money?? Law, nursing, accounting, sales... are all COMPLETELY different jobs and skill sets.. Sure anyone that can get a full ride to a T14 could succeed in Nursing School, with an accounting degree, or whatever, but are you really going to enjoy all of these things??

I guess I was under the impression that most people that are going to law school actually think they would enjoy practicing law.. You're going to spending thousands of hours per year working in whatever field you graduate in... is job security worth a job that make you want to shoot yourself?? Personally I think if you manage to find something that you actually enjoy going to work in the morning, this is much more important than...market growth in your field



Not everyone does, but some people do seem to focus on income potential. There seems to be two schools of thought on this. One is a group I like to call 'munchkins'. They're the ones that focus on getting the absolute best income for their effort, getting the top of the heap, playing the biglaw-or-bust game. They're the law school equivalent of powergamers (if you've played DnD, you know what I mean... :oops: )

Some of us just want to be lawyers, though. We know the system and work at it, but we're in it because we enjoy writing nerdy things with our lives and being lawyers for whatever godforsaken reason. Prestige, chance to help people, intellectual challenge...whatever. The point is that we are generally not as competitive as the other group, and will likely be happier in the long run.

The trick is figuring out which jobs these munchkins want and avoiding them. :?


I used to be this way, but TLS tends to make you pretty cynical about how much you'll enjoy law school/working as a lawyer. So...lowered expectations I guess.

kvothe
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby kvothe » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:32 am

collegebum1989 wrote:Engineering = dead-end job. If you really want to have a tangible impact on your company/field or be lucrative, you either have to move into management or move into academia. Most industry engineers are just part of a company workforce and are usually expendable. The ones who don't move into management, end up having average 9-5s and make about ~100k the rest of their career.

I agree. I think this is true even in Silicon Valley (where I live), despite the common assumption that engineers here are treated "really well." There may be a few companies that are different (Google perhaps), but generally the way to move up as an engineer is to stop doing engineering; transition to the business side, or start (maybe join) a startup.

Academics can also have an impact on their field, but very often their field is entirely ignored by the real world (at least in my discipline).

As an aside: if we are speaking only with respect to monetary compensation and upside potential, I suspect MBA > JD for most engineers. Top business schools generally smile upon engineering backgrounds (as do companies, upon engineer MBAs), and I suspect the utility/risk ratio is better.

collegebum1989
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby collegebum1989 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:03 pm

kvothe wrote:
collegebum1989 wrote:Engineering = dead-end job. If you really want to have a tangible impact on your company/field or be lucrative, you either have to move into management or move into academia. Most industry engineers are just part of a company workforce and are usually expendable. The ones who don't move into management, end up having average 9-5s and make about ~100k the rest of their career.

I agree. I think this is true even in Silicon Valley (where I live), despite the common assumption that engineers here are treated "really well." There may be a few companies that are different (Google perhaps), but generally the way to move up as an engineer is to stop doing engineering; transition to the business side, or start (maybe join) a startup.

Academics can also have an impact on their field, but very often their field is entirely ignored by the real world (at least in my discipline).

As an aside: if we are speaking only with respect to monetary compensation and upside potential, I suspect MBA > JD for most engineers. Top business schools generally smile upon engineering backgrounds (as do companies, upon engineer MBAs), and I suspect the utility/risk ratio is better.


Ironically, an engineering background is the most valuable outside an engineering field. The way that engineering fields are set up with hiring model limits high mid-career compensation and advancement because advanced degrees aren't required to be an industry engineer and there is no specialized training or barrier to entry like fields like medicine, law, etc. Therefore, employers aren't obligated to give out substantially high salaries unless your value is high relative to the company's worth (management).

If you are comparing compensation for engineers with MBAs and JDs, its not fair to compare top MBAs with all JDs. Of course someone with a MBA from a top school will have lucrative options, as will someone with a JD from a top school. However, engineer MBAs generally compete with all other MBAs in their industries since advancement is based on experience and performance. However, engineers with JDs in IP law usually compete only with other patent-bar eligible JDs, which is somewhat limited number of. So I would argue the utility/risk ratio is higher for JDs than MBAs (only for engineers).

kvothe
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby kvothe » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:08 pm

collegebum1989 wrote:If you are comparing compensation for engineers with MBAs and JDs, its not fair to compare top MBAs with all JDs. Of course someone with a MBA from a top school will have lucrative options, as will someone with a JD from a top school. However, engineer MBAs generally compete with all other MBAs in their industries since advancement is based on experience and performance. However, engineers with JDs in IP law usually compete only with other patent-bar eligible JDs, which is somewhat limited number of. So I would argue the utility/risk ratio is higher for JDs than MBAs (only for engineers).

Good point -- I didn't take that fully into account. Engineer MBAs will have an advantage over other MBAs at companies with engineer-oriented cultures, but this is probably less of an advantage than patent-bar eligibility/marketability.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:48 pm

rayiner wrote:
ahnhub wrote:[There are always options, and the vast majority don't involve losing 3 years of your working life and going into six-figure debt. I can list dozens of professions off the top of my head which will be more in demand than lawyers: programming, nursing, engineering, sales, accounting, etc....sure most of those aren't doing great either, but generally they're doing better than law.


None of those professions are, financially, better than going to a T14, especially with a scholarship.


Nursing, Accounting: secure professions, but again you're unlikely to ever make more than $100k.

cant speak for nursing, but for accounting, generally speaking, if you're more than 7 years in, depending on your specialty, you will be making above 100k, especially if you're partner in public accounting.

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rayiner
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby rayiner » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:13 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ahnhub wrote:[There are always options, and the vast majority don't involve losing 3 years of your working life and going into six-figure debt. I can list dozens of professions off the top of my head which will be more in demand than lawyers: programming, nursing, engineering, sales, accounting, etc....sure most of those aren't doing great either, but generally they're doing better than law.


None of those professions are, financially, better than going to a T14, especially with a scholarship.


Nursing, Accounting: secure professions, but again you're unlikely to ever make more than $100k.

cant speak for nursing, but for accounting, generally speaking, if you're more than 7 years in, depending on your specialty, you will be making above 100k, especially if you're partner in public accounting.


Sure, but if we're talking about better than average outcomes in nursing or accounting, let's talk about better than average outcomes for T14 graduates. Average partner compensation at even small-ish/mid-size firms is over $300k/year (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=186930).

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Legal market in three years

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:15 pm

rayiner wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ahnhub wrote:[There are always options, and the vast majority don't involve losing 3 years of your working life and going into six-figure debt. I can list dozens of professions off the top of my head which will be more in demand than lawyers: programming, nursing, engineering, sales, accounting, etc....sure most of those aren't doing great either, but generally they're doing better than law.


None of those professions are, financially, better than going to a T14, especially with a scholarship.


Nursing, Accounting: secure professions, but again you're unlikely to ever make more than $100k.

cant speak for nursing, but for accounting, generally speaking, if you're more than 7 years in, depending on your specialty, you will be making above 100k, especially if you're partner in public accounting.


Sure, but if we're talking about better than average outcomes in nursing or accounting, let's talk about better than average outcomes for T14 graduates. Average partner compensation at even small-ish/mid-size firms is over $300k/year (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=186930).

you're right.




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