Leaving a Good Job

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Sun May 13, 2012 8:56 am

We've had several paralegals go and come back with ease. Why can they do it so easily, but not an IT guy?

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dingbat
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby dingbat » Sun May 13, 2012 9:05 am

BeerMaker wrote:We've had several paralegals go and come back with ease. Why can they do it so easily, but not an IT guy?

A) where did they go to school?
B) what were their grades / class rank?
C) was this before or after the collapse of the economy?

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Sun May 13, 2012 9:08 am

dingbat wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:We've had several paralegals go and come back with ease. Why can they do it so easily, but not an IT guy?

A) where did they go to school?
B) what were their grades / class rank?
C) was this before or after the collapse of the economy?


A broad range of schools. Some T14. Some T30. Some not even T100, but regional.

If not T14, grades were at least top 1/3 of class. Most had great grades.

This all happened during and post recession.

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dingbat
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby dingbat » Sun May 13, 2012 9:11 am

BeerMaker wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:We've had several paralegals go and come back with ease. Why can they do it so easily, but not an IT guy?

If not T14, grades were at least top 1/3 of class. Most had great grades.

There's your answer.

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sunynp
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby sunynp » Sun May 13, 2012 9:15 am

BeerMaker wrote:We've had several paralegals go and come back with ease. Why can they do it so easily, but not an IT guy?


It isn't because you are an IT guy, it is because you are going to law school. You don't know how well you will do. Also, you seem very happy with your job, and you have a good salary. So that is a different conversation than if you were miserable.

It comes done to your grades, and you know that law school grades are not predictable.

At this point only you can make this choice. I hope it all works out for you.

MrAnon
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby MrAnon » Sun May 13, 2012 9:19 am

BeerMaker wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:I did not get into a top 14. If I go, I will be going to a top 25. I cannot go part time unfortunately. I love my job, there is a lot of job security, I have great benefits, bonuses are big and I get a lot of vacation time. I also expect to get a decent raise every year. The hard part for me is that I have all of these connections with the firm that I work at. If I am able to come back and work as an attorney, I would make significantly more money in the long run. What would you do?

unless you can basically guarantee biglaw through those connections, NO.

Odds of T25 (assuming not T20) Biglaw are not even close to high enough to make it worth the risk. If you couldn't get Biglaw at median or below through the connections, don't go. If it's "get a degree and you're hired," then go for it.


I don't know if it's get a degree and you're hired, but I'm pretty confident that it's get good grades and you're hired. I mean these partners are my friends. They're telling me I have a good shot.


ugggh...what else are they supposed to tell you? "No, we wouldn't hire you"? If the truth is not friendly, they probably wouldn't say it to your face at this point. what incentive would they have to be honest with you?

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sunynp
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby sunynp » Sun May 13, 2012 9:27 am

MrAnon wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:I did not get into a top 14. If I go, I will be going to a top 25. I cannot go part time unfortunately. I love my job, there is a lot of job security, I have great benefits, bonuses are big and I get a lot of vacation time. I also expect to get a decent raise every year. The hard part for me is that I have all of these connections with the firm that I work at. If I am able to come back and work as an attorney, I would make significantly more money in the long run. What would you do?

unless you can basically guarantee biglaw through those connections, NO.

Odds of T25 (assuming not T20) Biglaw are not even close to high enough to make it worth the risk. If you couldn't get Biglaw at median or below through the connections, don't go. If it's "get a degree and you're hired," then go for it.


I don't know if it's get a degree and you're hired, but I'm pretty confident that it's get good grades and you're hired. I mean these partners are my friends. They're telling me I have a good shot.


ugggh...what else are they supposed to tell you? "No, we wouldn't hire you"? If the truth is not friendly, they probably wouldn't say it to your face at this point. what incentive would they have to be honest with you?

Every time I read his summary of his job, it sounds really great, with a lot less stress, guaranteed vacation time, and it has to be much better and more regular hours than the lawyers have at that firm.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Sun May 13, 2012 9:39 am

sunynp wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:We've had several paralegals go and come back with ease. Why can they do it so easily, but not an IT guy?


It isn't because you are an IT guy, it is because you are going to law school. You don't know how well you will do. Also, you seem very happy with your job, and you have a good salary. So that is a different conversation than if you were miserable.

It comes done to your grades, and you know that law school grades are not predictable.

At this point only you can make this choice. I hope it all works out for you.



Thanks for the advice. With enough hard work, can I predict at least cum laude? Obviously, Magna would be better.

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dingbat
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby dingbat » Sun May 13, 2012 10:02 am

BeerMaker wrote:Thanks for the advice. With enough hard work, can I predict at least cum laude? Obviously, Magna would be better.

No.
Most people at law school work really hard. The vast majority of your fellow students will be just as smart as you are: if you were smarter, you would have gotten into a better law school; if they were dumber, they wouldn't have gotten in.

Easily 90%* of the student population is just as smart and hardworking as each other. Because of grading on a curve, doing very well is not enough. If everyone gets 95% right, then getting 95% right will only get you a B. Hell, you can get 90% right and end up with a C
There's no way of knowing in advance how well you will fare.


*there's always room for exception, but don't count on it being you

Scurredsitless1
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby Scurredsitless1 » Sun May 13, 2012 10:17 am

Working in a large law firm and having relationships with people at all levels of that organization will give you better insight on the profession than an online forum will. You have a much better idea about your chances of getting back in with this firm than "we" do.

Grades are so critical when looking for a job. That's the big risk here, if you don't make the grades, you fucked yourself - and it's impossible to tell if you will make the grades until you're there. Everyone is smart and everyone works hard.

However, I was able to get biglaw interviews that seemed out of my league (due to school and GPA -tier 2, top 15%) and I landed an awesome SA gig because of my work experience.

My prior work experience was far from glamorous - but I made it sound practical and it really gave me a huge leg up. I think the toughest interview question is "why do you want to be a lawyer". You can say that you made the decision after working with lawyers everyday and you truly understand what it means to be a lawyer.

Good luck, man.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Sun May 13, 2012 11:22 am

dingbat wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:Thanks for the advice. With enough hard work, can I predict at least cum laude? Obviously, Magna would be better.

No.
Most people at law school work really hard. The vast majority of your fellow students will be just as smart as you are: if you were smarter, you would have gotten into a better law school; if they were dumber, they wouldn't have gotten in.

Easily 90%* of the student population is just as smart and hardworking as each other. Because of grading on a curve, doing very well is not enough. If everyone gets 95% right, then getting 95% right will only get you a B. Hell, you can get 90% right and end up with a C
There's no way of knowing in advance how well you will fare.


*there's always room for exception, but don't count on it being you


Others have said that there is a large majority of kids who go to law school and do not get good grades. There are several factors to explain why this is. Some of them go because their parents tell them to. Others go because they didn't know what to do after undergrad. Still, others go and plan on going into nonprofits and other things where grades aren't nearly as important as they are for top 250. I can only imagine that there are a handful of gunners out there. Not that I plan on being that guy, but with a lot of hard work, one would think that breaking into the top one third is doable?

If breaking into the top 1/3 is not a good possibility, I'm not going!

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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby cinephile » Sun May 13, 2012 11:51 am

BeerMaker wrote:Others have said that there is a large majority of kids who go to law school and do not get good grades. There are several factors to explain why this is. Some of them go because their parents tell them to. Others go because they didn't know what to do after undergrad. Still, others go and plan on going into nonprofits and other things where grades aren't nearly as important as they are for top 250. I can only imagine that there are a handful of gunners out there. Not that I plan on being that guy, but with a lot of hard work, one would think that breaking into the top one third is doable?


What's considered as good depends on what school you're going to. So, at a T25, 2/3s of the students don't get "good" grades. But the rationalizations you gave are not at all true from my experience. Almost every single person in my class works extremely hard. Yes, there's always a couple people who are here because they don't want to be, but that's very rare. There are plenty who are here because they didn't know what else to do, but they are also working very hard because even though they may have picked a career at random, the end goal is still getting a job. Those who want public interest are also extremely hard working because grades matter for everything these days, especially when you're a T25 competing with students from better schools. Basically, you're competing against students who are exactly like yourself. The odds you won't be in the top third are more likely than not.

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DCDuck
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby DCDuck » Sun May 13, 2012 12:03 pm

Your chances of making the top 1/3 of your class are about 1 in 3. Beyond that, no one can tell you what your specific chances are. Keep in mind that pretty much everyone going to law school goes thinking that they will do well.

I think most lawyers would be envious of your current job. Good money, job security, bonuses, I'm assuming your hours are generally better than the attorneys'. It's a gamble. It'll pay off for some, and it won't for others. You have a tough decision, but I don't think TLS can give you any more information that will make your decision easier at this point. Good luck!

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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby goodthings » Sun May 13, 2012 12:51 pm

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Last edited by goodthings on Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Sun May 13, 2012 1:43 pm

Anyone agree with the above poster that paralegals are different than IT? I'm beginning to lean toward retaking and aiming for UM or NU. Although I am 30 and that pushes partner track out even more. I'f I go to NU or UM, I'm still going to need good grades though, correct? If I wait and do go to say, NU, am I just in the same position as if I were at ND? Get good grades or you're screwed?

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Addy
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby Addy » Sun May 13, 2012 2:59 pm

I have a friend where all she had to do was pass the bar to be hired (through connections). She went to a T-3/4 (in her hometown), passed the bar and was hired as expected. R U in that kind of situation? If so, why bother with the expense of a Tier 1? Especially if there is a Tier 2/3/4 in your neighborhood.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Sun May 13, 2012 3:46 pm

Addy wrote:I have a friend where all she had to do was pass the bar to be hired (through connections). She went to a T-3/4 (in her hometown), passed the bar and was hired as expected. R U in that kind of situation? If so, why bother with the expense of a Tier 1? Especially if there is a Tier 2/3/4 in your neighborhood.


It's not quite that golden. If I went that route, I'd need to be summa cum laude.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Sun May 13, 2012 8:55 pm

Of those of you who would not go in my situation, would an offer from Northwestern or Michigan persuade you otherwise? I'm considering keeping my job and shooting for these two schools. I think it might take a better school to convince me to leave. With my gpa, I'd need a 173 to make that possible. Is that more likely than making top 1/3 as a 1L?

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annet
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby annet » Sun May 13, 2012 11:13 pm

BeerMaker wrote:Of those of you who would not go in my situation, would an offer from Northwestern or Michigan persuade you otherwise? I'm considering keeping my job and shooting for these two schools. I think it might take a better school to convince me to leave. With my gpa, I'd need a 173 to make that possible. Is that more likely than making top 1/3 as a 1L?


It seems like it keeps so much more within your control. Rather than competing with the entire ND 1L class for that top 1/3 spot, you're just competing against yourself for a 173+ on what is, so it seems, a learnable test.

I don't know what your cutoff for big law is but just glancing at the google doc 51+/Fed tab you're looking at a 33% chance from ND, 58% from Michigan, and 63% from Northwestern. When you don't hate your job, that seems like a nice upgrade to shoot for if you'd like to return to the type of firm where you currently work. If you'd be ok with small law/small gov, then maybe look harder at scholarship potential?

And then there's the debt thing - maybe you still end up at ND because you like the school, but in a much better financial position so you don't have to be all biglaw or bust. I dunno, man, I think maybe a lot of us, myself included, are a little caught up in the fact that you love your job. Jealousy, perhaps? :D But looking at your other thread, I think you're going to go no matter what. So I would back up and take a hard look at the financial risk/reward of ND at your current offer vs. what you would probably be offered with a 173+. Take a look at this thread, viewtopic.php?f=10&t=183509.

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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby Renzo » Sun May 13, 2012 11:23 pm

I left a good job for law school, and I'm older than you. So it can be done.

My advice is that if you really, really, want to be a lawyer, then do it. But, do so understanding that the legal hiring market is terrible, you will not be able to outwork you classmates, and your connections at your firm will only help you if you would otherwise be eligible for the job (they won't save you from mediocre grades).

On the other hand; if you are doing it because you think you have an inside track that makes it an easy route to big bucks, or if you are doing it simply because you don't like your current occupation that much, then it's probably a poor choice.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Mon May 14, 2012 12:11 pm

Renzo wrote:I left a good job for law school, and I'm older than you. So it can be done.

My advice is that if you really, really, want to be a lawyer, then do it. But, do so understanding that the legal hiring market is terrible, you will not be able to outwork you classmates, and your connections at your firm will only help you if you would otherwise be eligible for the job (they won't save you from mediocre grades).

On the other hand; if you are doing it because you think you have an inside track that makes it an easy route to big bucks, or if you are doing it simply because you don't like your current occupation that much, then it's probably a poor choice.


Are mediocre grades acceptable at Michigan, Northwestern, UPenn, Cornell? I realize they're typically not okay at ND, GW, WUSTL. At Northwestern, does one need to be top 1/3 to get a big job?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon May 14, 2012 12:26 pm

BeerMaker wrote:Are mediocre grades acceptable at Michigan, Northwestern, UPenn, Cornell? I realize they're typically not okay at ND, GW, WUSTL. At Northwestern, does one need to be top 1/3 to get a big job?


No

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Mon May 14, 2012 12:54 pm

So if mediocre is not okay at Northwestern, and you'd need to break the upper echelon of the class at such a school, what's the point in going there over ND? Top 1/3 is going to give you a shot at big law from either school. Also NU placed 55% big law at 2009 OCI, so wouldn't you think that quite a few were mediocre?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon May 14, 2012 1:33 pm

BeerMaker wrote:So if mediocre is not okay at Northwestern, and you'd need to break the upper echelon of the class at such a school, what's the point in going there over ND? Top 1/3 is going to give you a shot at big law from either school. Also NU placed 55% big law at 2009 OCI, so wouldn't you think that quite a few were mediocre?


Sorry the No was directed to your second question.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Leaving a Good Job

Postby BeerMaker » Mon May 14, 2012 3:01 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:So if mediocre is not okay at Northwestern, and you'd need to break the upper echelon of the class at such a school, what's the point in going there over ND? Top 1/3 is going to give you a shot at big law from either school. Also NU placed 55% big law at 2009 OCI, so wouldn't you think that quite a few were mediocre?


Sorry the No was directed to your second question.


Oh, lol!




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