TTT schools: always a bad idea? Forum

[presh]

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[dingbat]

Since I kind of started this, let me clarify that I wouldn't say that Toledo is a "shithole," mostly because I can't see myself ever describing anywhere as such.

I should take you places....

I probably am a bit sheltered

beats so much as setting eyes on some of the places I've been stuck in

[ahnhub]

So in Michigan there's always been Michigan and Wayne State and a couple of other less reputable schools (including Cooley.)

For decades Wayne State basically dominated the Detroit/metro area legal market, because only like 10% of Michigan grads stayed in the state. I mean, I remember reading bios of county courts and at least half of the judges/prosecutors/clerks were from Wayne State. The smaller and medium-sized law firms all had a strong Wayne State plurality, and the Biglaw type firms took the top Wayne State students every year.

So for a TTT I think it wasn't a bad investment for a lot of in-state people. But 2010 employment stats look kind of like what you'd expect: http://law.wayne.edu/career-services/2010stats.php. 2/3 in actual long-term JD-required employment, maybe 80% doing something legal-related, 12% straight up unemployment, and maybe 10%+ working non-legal jobs, and likely very few people making good money (you can only verify that 26 people made at least 60K). Good for a TTT in a recession year but not something you should gamble a lot of $$ on (tuition is around 28K). FWIW I know several grads from earlier years and none of them are doing shitlaw.

So while I consider Wayne State a reputable school which has had the advantage of kind of being the only game in town for a long time, it ends up still being tough sledding.

[Addy]

Perhaps anomalies but the two biggest media trials of the year (Casey Anthony and George Zimmerman) were handled by grads of Tier 4 and Tier 2 schools. For these attorneys, no need for the glitter of Tier 1 or higher.

The defense for Anthony was Jose Diaz, JD at St. Thomas University Law [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 148].
Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O'Mara, JD FSU [Tier 2]
Zimmerman co-council Lorna Truett, FLA A&M [Tier 4 – LSAT 145]
Zimmerman’s first attorney is a Northern Ohio Law Grad [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 149].
Trayvon Martin Attorney Benjamin Crump, JD FSU [Tier 2]

[flcath]

Perhaps anomalies but the two biggest media trials of the year (Casey Anthony and George Zimmerman) were handled by grads of Tier 4 and Tier 2 schools. For these attorneys, no need for the glitter of Tier 1 or higher.

The defense for Anthony was Jose Diaz, JD at St. Thomas University Law [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 148].
Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O'Mara, JD FSU [Tier 2]
Zimmerman co-council Lorna Truett, FLA A&M [Tier 4 – LSAT 145]
Zimmerman’s first attorney is a Northern Ohio Law Grad [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 149].
Trayvon Martin Attorney Benjamin Crump, JD FSU [Tier 2]

Definitely anomalies, and being on a televised case in no way means you're good, but I've been pretty impressed with the O'Mara dude.

[RedBirds2011]

Perhaps anomalies but the two biggest media trials of the year (Casey Anthony and George Zimmerman) were handled by grads of Tier 4 and Tier 2 schools. For these attorneys, no need for the glitter of Tier 1 or higher.

The defense for Anthony was Jose Diaz, JD at St. Thomas University Law [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 148].
Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O'Mara, JD FSU [Tier 2]
Zimmerman co-council Lorna Truett, FLA A&M [Tier 4 – LSAT 145]
Zimmerman’s first attorney is a Northern Ohio Law Grad [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 149].
Trayvon Martin Attorney Benjamin Crump, JD FSU [Tier 2]

Since it is criminal defense, it is not the realm of biglaw territory thus is not nearly as prestige whorish.

[PutSumGravyOnIt]

Perhaps anomalies but the two biggest media trials of the year (Casey Anthony and George Zimmerman) were handled by grads of Tier 4 and Tier 2 schools. For these attorneys, no need for the glitter of Tier 1 or higher.

The defense for Anthony was Jose Diaz, JD at St. Thomas University Law [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 148].
Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O'Mara, JD FSU [Tier 2]
Zimmerman co-council Lorna Truett, FLA A&M [Tier 4 – LSAT 145]
Zimmerman’s first attorney is a Northern Ohio Law Grad [Tier 4 ‒ LSAT 149].
Trayvon Martin Attorney Benjamin Crump, JD FSU [Tier 2]

Since it is criminal defense, it is not the realm of biglaw territory thus is not nearly as prestige whorish.

Is criminal defense really less prestige-whorish? That makes me happy. Why is that? Also, are non-biglaw jobs generally less prestige-whorish? Are there other types of law that happen to not be about the ranking of the school you went to?

[RedBirds2011]

Some small firms can still be prestige whorish, but not nearly as often. It also depends on what they specialize in. You need to be a rainmaker. Your ability to succeed in small law is primarily determined by your ability to hustle and bring in clients. I would recommend starting a plan of attack and hustle strategy now. Need to start building contacts over the next few years and KEEP in touch with them...not just meet them and that be the end. These are how most of the jobs are obtained, and how most jobs outside of law are obtained also by the way.

Edit: oh and if this is your plan from the get go, try not to have too much debt because you won't make a whole lot starting out.

As far as specialties: things like trusts and estates/probate, Elder Law, PI, family/divorce, misdemeanor criminal defense/possibly more serious crimes if have right experience, etc. these are more realistically obtainable from lower ranked schools but still no guarantee.

[SunshineMagic]

Some small firms can still be prestige whorish, but not nearly as often. It also depends on what they specialize in. You need to be a rainmaker. Your ability to succeed in small law is primarily determined by your ability to hustle and bring in clients. I would recommend starting a plan of attack and hustle strategy now. Need to start building contacts over the next few years and KEEP in touch with them...not just meet them and that be the end. These are how most of the jobs are obtained, and how most jobs outside of law are obtained also by the way.

Edit: oh and if this is your plan from the get go, try not to have too much debt because you won't make a whole lot starting out.

As far as specialties: things like trusts and estates/probate, elder law, PI, family/divorce, misdemeanor criminal defense/possibly more serious crimes if have right experience, etc. these are more realistically obtainable from lower ranked schools but still no guarantee.

I have found its really hard to go directly into PI on plaintiffs side much easier to go to 10-30 attorney insurance defense firm then switch over

[Addy]

But again, if you kick total ass (or have connections), then I think it's entirely possible you'd get something that wasn't horrible.

Sure, but the lottery defense* of these schools isn't a viable argument in their favor.

*"Since a few people win, it's okay to play"

Does that mean that nobody should go to these schools? If a few win, then some should play. The OP asked if it's always a bad idea, not if you should favor them over other choices. Simple answer is no, it's not always a bad idea.

Without doing more than 5 minutes of research. . .a few way out side of the T-14 do win big. (Was surprised about Loyola showing up so much).

Johnnie Cochran ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
Mark Geragos ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
F. Lee Bailey – Boston U ‒ Tier 1
Gloria Allred ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
Anne Bremner ‒ Seattle U ‒ Tier 2
Robert Shapiro ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
Gerry Spence ‒ Wyoming ‒ Tier 3

[PutSumGravyOnIt]

I wonder, are people who go to TTT expecting to get a really good job at the end of it? They shouldn't expect that, but I also don't think that should prohibit them from going. After all, there are law jobs that people are perfectly happy in that make $60,000 (and that might be after several years).

It can't be denied that hiring is way down industry-wide, law schools screw you with merit scholarships, forced curves, faux merit scholarships and the like, and there is substantial prestige-whoring involved with top law positions. However, it seems clear that some of the debate on this topic--whether attending a TTT is viable--comes from the different levels of expectation of TLS posters. At the risk of generalizing, some posters seem to have high expectations. It makes sense in a way, as 20 or 30 years ago if you went to law school you were much more likely to find a reasonably good job at the end of it, and if you excelled, you might get a really top job. This is obviously not the case anymore, so I understand what has created the TLS "T14 or bust" mentality. Still, it seems that a lot of posters aren't shooting for Biglaw or a federal clerkship or other presitigious position. They are fine with a "shittier" job. And for this purpose--if you still bust ass (top 30%)/have connections--then a TTT could be just fine.

Some will probably attack me for saying "well yeah if you want a shitty job you can go to a shitty school." But not everyone is shooting for Biglaw or a top job. There are other good jobs out there. I'm just trying to relieve the TLS-induced fear for the T3ers with reasonable expectations that if you don't go to a top school, you won't get a job.

[Tiago Splitter]

Some will probably attack me for saying "well yeah if you want a shitty job you can go to a shitty school." But not everyone is shooting for Biglaw or a top job. There are other good jobs out there. I'm just trying to relieve the TLS-induced fear for the T3ers with reasonable expectations that if you don't go to a top school, you won't get a job.

Going to a TTT doesn't guarantee any kind of long-term employment, much less any kind of long-term legal employment. But even if you could be assured of having some kind of mediocre job coming out of a TTT, those jobs won't come close to allowing people to pay off the debt they often incur. Which is why TLS says don't go to a TTT without a full ride or some other way to severely limit debt from tuition and living expenses.

More importantly, "I don't want BigLaw" is never an excuse not to retake.

[RedBirds2011]

Some will probably attack me for saying "well yeah if you want a shitty job you can go to a shitty school." But not everyone is shooting for Biglaw or a top job. There are other good jobs out there. I'm just trying to relieve the TLS-induced fear for the T3ers with reasonable expectations that if you don't go to a top school, you won't get a job.

Going to a TTT doesn't guarantee any kind of long-term employment, much less any kind of long-term legal employment. But even if you could be assured of having some kind of mediocre job coming out of a TTT, those jobs won't come close to allowing people to pay off the debt they often incur. Which is why TLS says don't go to a TTT without a full ride or some other way to severely limit debt from tuition and living expenses.

More importantly, "I don't want BigLaw" is never an excuse not to retake.

Debt is the issue. But more importantly a lot, if not most, of T1/T2 students outside of the truly highly ranked schools will end up in lower paid legal positions that won't be able to pay back high debt as well.

[ahnhub]

And for this purpose--if you still bust ass (top 30%)/have connections--then a TTT could be just fine.

Some will probably attack me for saying "well yeah if you want a shitty job you can go to a shitty school." But not everyone is shooting for Biglaw or a top job. There are other good jobs out there. I'm just trying to relieve the TLS-induced fear for the T3ers with reasonable expectations that if you don't go to a top school, you won't get a job.

It could be just fine. It turns out just fine, and probably better than just fine, and sometimes spectacularly, for lots of people. (If I had to guess, I'd say there's probably as many lower-ranked grads in the top 1 % as there are elite law school grads.)

But 3 yrs of your life and 150K in debt shouldn't be a massive gamble. You should have a reasonable certainty that your investment of time and money is worthwhile (the standard a lot of people preach is 'would you happy with your prospects at median.') The vast majority of people applying to law school don't have those kinds of strong connections, and there's no way to know you'll do well.

[stillwater]

But again, if you kick total ass (or have connections), then I think it's entirely possible you'd get something that wasn't horrible.

Sure, but the lottery defense* of these schools isn't a viable argument in their favor.

*"Since a few people win, it's okay to play"

Does that mean that nobody should go to these schools? If a few win, then some should play. The OP asked if it's always a bad idea, not if you should favor them over other choices. Simple answer is no, it's not always a bad idea.

Without doing more than 5 minutes of research. . .a few way out side of the T-14 do win big. (Was surprised about Loyola showing up so much).

Johnnie Cochran ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
Mark Geragos ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
F. Lee Bailey – Boston U ‒ Tier 1
Gloria Allred ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
Anne Bremner ‒ Seattle U ‒ Tier 2
Robert Shapiro ‒ Loyola ‒ Tier 2
Gerry Spence ‒ Wyoming ‒ Tier 3

F. Lee Bailey also got disbarred.

[Mr. Pancakes]

Agree with bk187, disagree with Desert Fox

The fact is, these are severely regional schools where, if you're entrenched in the area, can go for little to no debt, and are serious about kicking ass in said school, then you may have a chance for a decent job.

but wouldn't those people who are most likely going to kick ass go to a better school?

outside of the top schools most attorneys don't know shit about rankings, and a lot of people want to stay close to home for a number of reasons.

[PutSumGravyOnIt]

Some will probably attack me for saying "well yeah if you want a shitty job you can go to a shitty school." But not everyone is shooting for Biglaw or a top job. There are other good jobs out there. I'm just trying to relieve the TLS-induced fear for the T3ers with reasonable expectations that if you don't go to a top school, you won't get a job.

Going to a TTT doesn't guarantee any kind of long-term employment, much less any kind of long-term legal employment. But even if you could be assured of having some kind of mediocre job coming out of a TTT, those jobs won't come close to allowing people to pay off the debt they often incur. Which is why TLS says don't go to a TTT without a full ride or some other way to severely limit debt from tuition and living expenses.

More importantly, "I don't want BigLaw" is never an excuse not to retake.

Going to law school period does not guarantee any kind of long-term legal employment, and I certainly don't think TTT guarantees you anything.

I totally agree that TTT applicants shouldn't go if they have to incur massive debt because they have very little chance to get a high-paying law job. I also acknowledge those, prob like you Tiago, who say that you can go to TTT conditionally--with very little to no debt, great connections, etc. I agree with these folks.

I'm arguing against the notion held by many reactionary TLSers that one should never go to a TTT. It is a pervasive feeling here that many new TLS members become afraid of.

Btw I taught LSAT Prep classes for Princeton Review, and I am ALL for people retaking. It is a skill-based test, and you can practice and improve these skills.

[boredatwork]

My friend (who is much smarter than me) chose a full ride at Chapman over sticker at UCLA.

[stillwater]

My friend (who is much smarter than me) chose a full ride at Chapman over sticker at UCLA.

I suppose having no job prospects with no debt is better than no job prospects with debt (in a purely general sense, not talking about UCLA here obviously).

[flcath]

My friend (who is much smarter than me) chose a full ride at Chapman over sticker at UCLA.

I suppose having no job prospects with no debt is better than no job prospects with debt (in a purely general sense, not talking about UCLA here obviously).

I normally troll hard for full-ride scholarships--replace "Chapman" with "UCSD" and I'd be all for it--but I don't know how to handle schools that I've seriously never heard of.

[boredatwork]

Well before UC Irvine opened it was the only legitimate law school in Orange County. I think it is ranked just outside of TT right now. I don't really know anything about it except what he has told me.Has an awful lot of competition in the So Cal market.

[charliep]

If I can get enough money from Toledo to make it nearly free, I might consider going there then this cycle.

Have you ever been to Toledo? It's basically Detroit, but in Ohio.

It couldn't be worse than some of the places I've been in Alaska....could it?

Make the visit first. Really, I wouldn't feel comfortable/safe living there for 3 years, even for free.

i lived in toledo and loved it. just to offer another perspective

[osuraccoon]

If I can get enough money from Toledo to make it nearly free, I might consider going there then this cycle.

Have you ever been to Toledo? It's basically Detroit, but in Ohio.

Make the visit first. Really, I wouldn't feel comfortable/safe living there for 3 years, even for free.

i lived in toledo and loved it. just to offer another perspective

Same here. I lived in Sylvania and Holland - both great suburbs. The actual inner city of Toledo is gross and creepy, but then again so are a lot of inner cities. I'm currently living in a suburb of Columbus that is nice, but I wouldn't ever want to actually live in inner city Columbus, that includes the immediate vicinity of Ohio State. (There may be lots of students, but there are also lots of sketchy people.)