TTT schools: always a bad idea?

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Artistry
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TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Artistry » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:42 am

While circumstances may vary depending on cost and ties, people acknowledge the wisdom of attending a T14 school. Some may give that attending a T1 (US news #1-#50) can be a good decision, and a few give that attending a T2 (US News #51-#100) can be a good decision.

My question is this: is there ever a case where attending a TTT school is a good investment?

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bk1
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:55 am

1. When it's cheap and has decent job placement.
2. When it's cheap and you have a guaranteed job.
3. When you have a trust fund and don't mind burning money.

These rules hold for pretty much all law schools. The problem with your question is that breaking down the rankings at intervals of 50 is arbitrary and pointless. There are some T2's better than T1's. There are some T3's better than T1's. For example TTT's like WVU or USC (the state school) for free with no stips if you're from that state and want to practice there are probably better bets than taking out a lot of money to attend a T1 like American.

09042014
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:16 am

IFF
1) You want shit law
2) You can attend for very little debt.

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PutSumGravyOnIt
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby PutSumGravyOnIt » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:29 pm

Agree with bk1, disagree with Desert Fox, esp. his point 2.

Lots of people here, especially long-time posters, think that TTT should have about 20 applicants each year. They seem to think it's basically a worthless education with very, very few jobs at the end.

The fact is, these are severely regional schools where, if you're entrenched in the area, can go for little to no debt, and are serious about kicking ass in said school, then you may have a chance for a decent job. So if you can go for just about free, then the real cost is the opportunity cost--3 years where you could be doing something different, building a different career, whatever.

That said, why a TTT for you? If you take another year off and study diligently for the LSAT (the biggest overall factor in selections), you may have a much better chance to be admitted to a T2 at least.

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PARTY
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby PARTY » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:34 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:Agree with bk1, disagree with Desert Fox


PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:The fact is, these are severely regional schools where, if you're entrenched in the area, can go for little to no debt, and are serious about kicking ass in said school, then you may have a chance for a decent job.


but wouldn't those people who are most likely going to kick ass go to a better school?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:45 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:disagree with Desert Fox, esp. his point 2


Desert Fox wrote:2) You can attend for very little debt


PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:The fact is, these are severely regional schools where, if you're entrenched in the area, can go for little to no debt, and are serious about kicking ass in said school, then you may have a chance for a decent job


What do you disagree with?

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PutSumGravyOnIt
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby PutSumGravyOnIt » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:20 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:What do you disagree with?


I disagree that a TTT is a shit school no matter what. I've heard from a few that really like it, they say that their faculty have degrees that are from good schools and are accomplished, and the quality of education is challenging, multidimensional, etc.

I agree with bk1's general point that some schools, regardless of tier, are better than others (as long as it's reasonably close, e.g. #56 being possibly better than #45). I'd bet that a few of the "top" T3's are just as good as some that cracked the top 100. Overall, I think it's possible to get a decent legal education at a few of these schools, thus my disagreement that all T3's are shit schools.

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bk1
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:24 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:I disagree that a TTT is a shit school no matter what.


That's not what DF's point was (though that might be something he also believes). DF's point was that TTT schools (like most non-top schools) place most of their grads into the bottom barrel legal specialties (e.g. insurance defense, personal injury, etc) aka "shit law." If you want to do stuff like M&A corporate work or securities litigation, then TTT schools are never a good idea since that kind of work is generally handled by large firms and TTT schools don't place many grads into large firms.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:25 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:What do you disagree with?


I disagree that a TTT is a shit school no matter what. I've heard from a few that really like it, they say that their faculty have degrees that are from good schools and are accomplished, and the quality of education is challenging, multidimensional, etc.

I agree with bk1's general point that some schools, regardless of tier, are better than others (as long as it's reasonably close, e.g. #56 being possibly better than #45). I'd bet that a few of the "top" T3's are just as good as some that cracked the top 100. Overall, I think it's possible to get a decent legal education at a few of these schools, thus my disagreement that all T3's are shit schools.


DF never said they were shit schools.

You're also making too big a deal over close differences in ranking (56 vs. 45? Try 96 vs 35. As bk said top 50 is arbitratry and pointless.) And I imagine you can get a "good legal education" at just about any law school, just not necessarily a job.

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PutSumGravyOnIt
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby PutSumGravyOnIt » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:25 pm

PARTY wrote:but wouldn't those people who are most likely going to kick ass go to a better school?


I don't think it's widely accepted at all that doing well on the LSAT and having a good UG GPA (aka admissions criteria) means you will automatically do well in law school. Some people that initially go to TTTs kick ass first year and transfer up. Others who did well on LSAT and in UG fail at the good schools they get into.

Artistry
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Artistry » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:27 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:That said, why a TTT for you? If you take another year off and study diligently for the LSAT (the biggest overall factor in selections), you may have a much better chance to be admitted to a T2 at least.

Answer: my family is trying to "encourage" me to accept any "good" offer I receive. Their perspective is that they will pay for any outstanding costs I might incur, thus allowing me to go to law school for free. However, I don't want to burden them so much with the costs of a legal (and perhaps graduate) education. It's expensive, and I feel like this next step should be my responsibility alone. That being said, they don't agree with me.

On top of that, the LSAT score I got on my first try (after studying independently for two months) was a 153, thus limiting my options. Unless a TT throws me a bone, I don't think I'll get into anything better than a TTT this cycle.

What might make this better is that, since I'm an Alaskan, I could return home to work and take advantage of the (somewhat limited) legal market here. Since there's no law school here, it's quite possible that finding legal work up here will be easier for me due to my ties; I've been advised by people on TLS to look at the situation more closely when I have the chance, and I will after I graduate from undergrad this semester.

Ideally, I'd prefer to work a year, retake the LSAT in October (and maybe February if that doesn't go well), and see where I stand after that. Unfortunately, the pressure to accept any given offer is putting strain on me. With that in mind, I tried this year to see what options are available, and the best one so far is Toledo to pursue a JD/Masters.

That's my situation in a nutshell right now. Hopefully, I get thrown a bone, but even so, it's probably better to not go this year. That's just my opinion (but many TLSers I've talked to share this opinion).

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splitbrain
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby splitbrain » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:28 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:What do you disagree with?


I disagree that a TTT is a shit school no matter what. I've heard from a few that really like it, they say that their faculty have degrees that are from good schools and are accomplished, and the quality of education is challenging, multidimensional, etc.

I agree with bk1's general point that some schools, regardless of tier, are better than others (as long as it's reasonably close, e.g. #56 being possibly better than #45). I'd bet that a few of the "top" T3's are just as good as some that cracked the top 100. Overall, I think it's possible to get a decent legal education at a few of these schools, thus my disagreement that all T3's are shit schools.

You're disagreeing about a point he didn't make. Also, the point about the quality of education wasn't brought up. That's great that someone would enjoy their education, but our issues are with $150k+ of debt and being undemployed or underemployed after graduating.

I'd be curious what your sources would have to say about their school(s) after they've actually graduated...

ETA: Damn, you other posters are fast, haha.

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PutSumGravyOnIt
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby PutSumGravyOnIt » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:34 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:DF never said they were shit schools.

You're also making too big a deal over close differences in ranking (56 vs. 45? Try 96 vs 35. As bk said top 50 is arbitratry and pointless.) And I imagine you can get a "good legal education" at just about any law school, just not necessarily a job.


Ok, I thought by "shit law" he meant they don't teach you the law very well.

If it's jobs he meant, then yeah, you have a much higher chance of doing law that top school grads wouldn't sniff at. But again, if you kick total ass (or have connections), then I think it's entirely possible you'd get something that wasn't horrible.

Like I said, I agree with your and Bk's comment about the arbitrariness of the rankings, and to me that argues slightly toward going to a TTT.

Other posters have commented, probably rendering my comments useless.

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Indifferent
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Indifferent » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:35 pm

bk1 wrote:3. When you have a trust fund and don't mind burning money.

Artistry wrote:My question is this: is there ever a case where attending a TTT school is a good investment?

Nope, pretty sure the trustee would be sued for failure to exercise reasonable care in this situation.

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PutSumGravyOnIt
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby PutSumGravyOnIt » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:37 pm

splitbrain wrote:I'd be curious what your sources would have to say about their school(s) after they've actually graduated...

ETA: Damn, you other posters are fast, haha.



Yeah, I mistook his claim that you'd do shit law as meaning that you'd learn the law shittily. My bad. Apparently everyone knows you can get a good legal education from a TTT.

We'll see after they've gradumacated... The ppl I've talked to seem to have connections in their area, hopefully they can take advantage of that.

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Indifferent
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Indifferent » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:1) You want shit law

It's sort of ironic that the richest lawyers in the country are shitlaw lawyers.

I am not really expressing an opinion, just observing, fyi.

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splitbrain
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby splitbrain » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:43 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:But again, if you kick total ass (or have connections), then I think it's entirely possible you'd get something that wasn't horrible.

Sure, but the lottery defense* of these schools isn't a viable argument in their favor.

*"Since a few people win, it's okay to play"

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Blessedassurance
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:48 pm

Indifferent wrote:It's sort of ironic that the richest lawyers in the country are shitlaw lawyers.

I am not really expressing an opinion, just observing, fyi.


It's sort of ironic that the richest man in America dropped out of college.

I am not really expressing an opinion, just observing, fyi

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Indifferent
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Indifferent » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:59 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
Indifferent wrote:It's sort of ironic that the richest lawyers in the country are shitlaw lawyers.

I am not really expressing an opinion, just observing, fyi.


It's sort of ironic that the richest man in America dropped out of college.

I am not really expressing an opinion, just observing, fyi

Zuckerberg dropped out too.

Interesting.

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Indifferent
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Indifferent » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:00 pm

Indifferent wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Indifferent wrote:It's sort of ironic that the richest lawyers in the country are shitlaw lawyers.

I am not really expressing an opinion, just observing, fyi.


It's sort of ironic that the richest man in America dropped out of college.

I am not really expressing an opinion, just observing, fyi

Zuckerberg dropped out too.

Interesting.

/drops out.

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PutSumGravyOnIt
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby PutSumGravyOnIt » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:01 pm

splitbrain wrote:
PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:But again, if you kick total ass (or have connections), then I think it's entirely possible you'd get something that wasn't horrible.

Sure, but the lottery defense* of these schools isn't a viable argument in their favor.

*"Since a few people win, it's okay to play"


Does that mean that nobody should go to these schools? If a few win, then some should play. The OP asked if it's always a bad idea, not if you should favor them over other choices. Simple answer is no, it's not always a bad idea.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:04 pm

Let's walk away from it all. Move to Cody, Wyoming, stay off the grid and subsist on delivering the Yellowbook.

09042014
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:17 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:But again, if you kick total ass (or have connections), then I think it's entirely possible you'd get something that wasn't horrible.

Sure, but the lottery defense* of these schools isn't a viable argument in their favor.

*"Since a few people win, it's okay to play"


Does that mean that nobody should go to these schools? If a few win, then some should play. The OP asked if it's always a bad idea, not if you should favor them over other choices. Simple answer is no, it's not always a bad idea.


(someone who doesn't understand probabilities)

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splitbrain
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby splitbrain » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:49 pm

PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
PutSumGravyOnIt wrote:But again, if you kick total ass (or have connections), then I think it's entirely possible you'd get something that wasn't horrible.

Sure, but the lottery defense* of these schools isn't a viable argument in their favor.

*"Since a few people win, it's okay to play"


Does that mean that nobody should go to these schools? If a few win, then some should play. The OP asked if it's always a bad idea, not if you should favor them over other choices. Simple answer is no, it's not always a bad idea.

See BK and DF's responses...

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dingbat
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Re: TTT schools: always a bad idea?

Postby dingbat » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:33 pm

Artistry wrote:My question is this: is there ever a case where attending a TTT school is a good investment?

If you live in, and want to work in, states like North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming or West Virginia




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