Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

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jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:14 am

gaud wrote:How much time/what did you do to network and get your name out there?



Minimal. Went to a few club meetings. Tough to really predict how I would have networked after 1st semester ended (I'm assuming I would have been forced to pick that up). However on that part, networking, I feel I was doing what most everybody else was doing 1st semester: not really worrying about anything other than class.

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gaud
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby gaud » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:16 am

jetsetter12 wrote:
gaud wrote:How much time/what did you do to network and get your name out there?



Minimal. Went to a few club meetings. Tough to really predict how I would have networked after 1st semester ended (I'm assuming I would have been forced to pick that up). However on that part, networking, I feel I was doing what most everybody else was doing 1st semester: not really worrying about anything other than class.


Fair enough. I'm glad you can decipher, lol

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:19 am

gaud wrote:
jetsetter12 wrote:
gaud wrote:How much time/what did you do to network and get your name out there?



Minimal. Went to a few club meetings. Tough to really predict how I would have networked after 1st semester ended (I'm assuming I would have been forced to pick that up). However on that part, networking, I feel I was doing what most everybody else was doing 1st semester: not really worrying about anything other than class.


Fair enough. I'm glad you can decipher, lol



Homie...(and this is not to knock the other gentleman who's a cool guy for sure)...but come-on...I'm now officially a regular, non-law school guy...I dgaf about grammar and complete logical incorruptibility in other people's words and statements lol. We're different on this side of the fence.

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tedalbany
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby tedalbany » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:28 am

What'd you put on your resume? I started applying to some places and wasn't sure what to do about LS. Did you just take it off? Put J.D., attempted 2011-2012, etc (obviously not actually 'attempted')? I'd rather leave it on since my GPA is good, but I also hate looking like a quitter.

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sunynp
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby sunynp » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:15 am

How many people from your class do you think should drop out now/really have no chance at a life not hampered by loans? (I know you don't know how many people are there on a full ride or substantial ride) How do you think this extrapolates to similarly ranked schools?

Here is another question - given what you have learned about the legal profession, jobs and debt - how many people on this forum would you say shouldn't go to law school or should drop out?
Last edited by sunynp on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:27 am

In retrospect, do you wish that you had gone to a lower ranked law school on a full tuition scholarship ? Would less financial pressure have made a difference ?

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:58 pm

tedalbany wrote:What'd you put on your resume? I started applying to some places and wasn't sure what to do about LS. Did you just take it off? Put J.D., attempted 2011-2012, etc (obviously not actually 'attempted')? I'd rather leave it on since my GPA is good, but I also hate looking like a quitter.



This isn't the case for everyone, but I only had 1 semester under my belt. Not a full year. So to me it's fair to not put it on at all. Only problem with this is that they ask what I was doing for 4 months during the interview. Once that question comes then you obviously have your pre-scripted story about how you tried "attending one of the top rated law programs...blah blah blah...wasn't a prudent investment financially....blah blah blah....I hope to revisit the opportunity some day in the future when it is financially feasible." In my experience if you explain it well and show your sound reasoning and maturity, it can actually be a positive.

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:19 pm

sunynp wrote:How many people from your class do you think should drop out now/really have no chance at a life not hampered by loans? (I know you don't know how many people are there on a full ride or substantial ride) How do you think this extrapolates to similarly ranked schools?

Here is another question - given what you have learned about the legal profession, jobs and debt - how many people on this forum would you say shouldn't go to law school or should drop out?


Firstly I recommend reading many of the articles by Elie Mystal on AboveTheLaw. He's a HLS grad, and I wished I'd paid more attention to him before going to law school. What seemed like hyperbole turned out to be completely true.

1) I went to a private school so financial aid was fairly decent generally for everyone. That said, it's still not enough. Here's a sad fact of life...many, MANY law school 1Ls come in from Liberal Arts majors or other majors and are financially illiterate in many cases. Smart as all hell, certainly, but not quite experienced with loans, and interest, and the like. 90% of all classes of all law schools complain about law school while in law school...and this includes the loans. From what I understood, many of my fellow 1Ls at my school were on their way to graduating with 70000+. They ALL complain. They ALL question whether they should be there. My law school, and other top law schools presumably, actually HIRE people to be there for students dealing with doubts over whether this is a prudent investment given the Landscape of the legal field. They won't lie to you...but still...they have a vested interest in you and your money flowing into that school. TL/DR: They're there to keep you drinking the Kool-Aid.

Let me hit you with a cold hard fact...NEARLY EVERYBODY contemplates dropping out. Of those that contemplate, I'd say 1/3 have serious discussions amongst friends and family about it. About 1/8 actually talk to a school guidance counselor about it. And even fewer (me and a girl) have the balls to do it. It really doesn't come down to people not having enough desire to drop out, but it comes down to people's fear of the unknown (dropping out) that overwhelms that desire to drop out. Let's face it, these are all overachievers that view dropping out as losing at life, failing, et cetera.

As far as who should drop out? You can just look at statistics floating around online. Of schools ranked 14 to 25 maybe, the Top 10% get decent jobs to build careers on. Top 11-30% get opportunities that may lead to careers (not so certain though). And the rest...the OTHER 70% of the class is scurrying for these categories: A) maybe the 3 or 4 great opportunities left, B) the 10 or so "meh" opportunities, C) the crap in the legal profession, D) the crap out of the legal profession, and E) the oh no what in the world do I do. So to the bottom 70%...why play Russian Roulette with debt, seriously think about quitting. The bottom 50% should just cut and run, they don't have any shot.

And you might ask...well certainly that would be insane to have the bottom 70% of all law schools drop out....right??? And my answer is no, the Law School market, like all markets in an economy, needs to self-correct. Too much supply (way too much). Easy federal loans have lead to this. If we all just bomb out of the law school bubble, two good things will happen. 1) Law Schools will lose revenue (since they are Underperforming on the service they sell...creating successful lawyers). Think about it, if Honda is underperforming on the cars it makes, it'll lose revenue...that simple. and 2) The Supply and Demand will get back into line and there will be harmony in the legal market again...YAYYYY...or maybe even cooler...A SHORTAGE OF LAWYERS (hahah, in your dreams).

2) Of the people in this forum, and this is just my opinion, MANY shouldn't go. You are all smart people that can make ends meet and be successful without taking out loans, to go through a crappy life for 3 years, to then have to work even harder to get a job, to then have to work even harder to keep the job, to then have to work even harder to make the money to make the whole ordeal worth it. Just my $0.02. However, I won't say most, or half, or even a third. There are just very many.

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roaringeagle
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby roaringeagle » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:25 pm

Jetsetter, congrats on the new job. However, it seems a bit strange to me that you did so well yet are still dropping out. It also seems to me that it is primarily your personality that clashes with the law school game.

The school I am going to however is very friendly with nice people in the law school. I have actually visited the school to which I have a massive scholarship.

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:28 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:In retrospect, do you wish that you had gone to a lower ranked law school on a full tuition scholarship ? Would less financial pressure have made a difference ?



Tough to say. Certainly on the "dinner plate" of reasons to drop out...the money and debt upon graduation was the "big, juicy steak." However, there was a big part of that "plate" that was filled with learning more about what it actually means to be a lawyer (in the unlikely event you get a job). So sure...I would have been more likely to stay had I gone to a maybe 25-40 ranked school with $$$...but that would have lead to another problem: if my non-stellar grades at a 14-20 were gonna get me nowhere, what would my non-stellar grades have gotten me at a 25-40 (I cringe to think). This would have meant killing it with networking, extracurriculars, et cetera. And all of this simply to have a shot at working 80 hrs a week under constant pressure of being let go for a young gun coming out of Harvard or Stanford, or even just general contraction of the lawyers employed.

Think about it...

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:38 pm

roaringeagle wrote:Jetsetter, congrats on the new job. However, it seems a bit strange to me that you did so well yet are still dropping out. It also seems to me that it is primarily your personality that clashes with the law school game.

The school I am going to however is very friendly with nice people in the law school. I have actually visited the school to which I have a massive scholarship.



Great question, but I would have to interrupt your thinking at the point where you said I "did so well." This is 2012. This is not 1992, or any other generation. This is 2012. There are massive changes and efficiency corrections sweeping the legal profession. To really have a shot at making the whole process worth while (aka, getting a great gig), you either have to go to a Top 10 (some say 6), or ABSOLUTELY KILL IT if you go anywhere outside of the top 14. (10-14 is meh). I didn't absolutely kill it. Game over, I move one, oh well. The entire law school game is so streamlined now (in reaction to the difficulty in acquiring employment), that if you screw up 1L, you're done. Can't get a great summer job, OCI you'll be shafted...and then there it goes. I moved on. Oh well...there's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more to life than the LEGAL PROFESSION.

But yes, that is quite perceptive of you to notice that it was also, in large part, a personality clash. Believe me, my law school was also "super nice"...and called the oft-overused and ALWAYS self-granted "cool law school." They always say that...take it with a grain of salt. Yes everyone is nervous there and will be nice to each other to cope...but that doesn't mean anything. Law School students are such a small part of the population and often very similar to each other which is understandable since law attracts similar people. I'm one of the few, and I mean few, outsiders who truly didn't fit in with "that type." (you'll find people blabber about that, not being a lawyer type, but they're just spewing crap...if they truly didn't fit in, they head for the hills like me).

I'm happy to hear about your scholly. Now you can focus on learning the law and not worry about money. Enjoy it...I hope you make it to Cravath one day...however dear friend...just know, life goes on and you'll be happy no matter what. If you don't like the path you're on next year...have the courage to change it like me. That's all I want you to take from me. HAVE THE COURAGE TO TURN YOUR LIFE AROUND. Good luck to you though.

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roaringeagle
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby roaringeagle » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:22 pm

Wow you are really nice...I wish you the best of luck as well. :D

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sunynp
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby sunynp » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:06 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
sunynp wrote:How many people from your class do you think should drop out now/really have no chance at a life not hampered by loans? (I know you don't know how many people are there on a full ride or substantial ride) How do you think this extrapolates to similarly ranked schools?

Here is another question - given what you have learned about the legal profession, jobs and debt - how many people on this forum would you say shouldn't go to law school or should drop out?


Firstly I recommend reading many of the articles by Elie Mystal on AboveTheLaw. He's a HLS grad, and I wished I'd paid more attention to him before going to law school. What seemed like hyperbole turned out to be completely true.

1) I went to a private school so financial aid was fairly decent generally for everyone. That said, it's still not enough. Here's a sad fact of life...many, MANY law school 1Ls come in from Liberal Arts majors or other majors and are financially illiterate in many cases. Smart as all hell, certainly, but not quite experienced with loans, and interest, and the like. 90% of all classes of all law schools complain about law school while in law school...and this includes the loans. From what I understood, many of my fellow 1Ls at my school were on their way to graduating with 70000+. They ALL complain. They ALL question whether they should be there. My law school, and other top law schools presumably, actually HIRE people to be there for students dealing with doubts over whether this is a prudent investment given the Landscape of the legal field. They won't lie to you...but still...they have a vested interest in you and your money flowing into that school. TL/DR: They're there to keep you drinking the Kool-Aid.

Let me hit you with a cold hard fact...NEARLY EVERYBODY contemplates dropping out. Of those that contemplate, I'd say 1/3 have serious discussions amongst friends and family about it. About 1/8 actually talk to a school guidance counselor about it. And even fewer (me and a girl) have the balls to do it. It really doesn't come down to people not having enough desire to drop out, but it comes down to people's fear of the unknown (dropping out) that overwhelms that desire to drop out. Let's face it, these are all overachievers that view dropping out as losing at life, failing, et cetera.

As far as who should drop out? You can just look at statistics floating around online. Of schools ranked 14 to 25 maybe, the Top 10% get decent jobs to build careers on. Top 11-30% get opportunities that may lead to careers (not so certain though). And the rest...the OTHER 70% of the class is scurrying for these categories: A) maybe the 3 or 4 great opportunities left, B) the 10 or so "meh" opportunities, C) the crap in the legal profession, D) the crap out of the legal profession, and E) the oh no what in the world do I do. So to the bottom 70%...why play Russian Roulette with debt, seriously think about quitting. The bottom 50% should just cut and run, they don't have any shot.

And you might ask...well certainly that would be insane to have the bottom 70% of all law schools drop out....right??? And my answer is no, the Law School market, like all markets in an economy, needs to self-correct. Too much supply (way too much). Easy federal loans have lead to this. If we all just bomb out of the law school bubble, two good things will happen. 1) Law Schools will lose revenue (since they are Underperforming on the service they sell...creating successful lawyers). Think about it, if Honda is underperforming on the cars it makes, it'll lose revenue...that simple. and 2) The Supply and Demand will get back into line and there will be harmony in the legal market again...YAYYYY...or maybe even cooler...A SHORTAGE OF LAWYERS (hahah, in your dreams).

2) Of the people in this forum, and this is just my opinion, MANY shouldn't go. You are all smart people that can make ends meet and be successful without taking out loans, to go through a crappy life for 3 years, to then have to work even harder to get a job, to then have to work even harder to keep the job, to then have to work even harder to make the money to make the whole ordeal worth it. Just my $0.02. However, I won't say most, or half, or even a third. There are just very many.


This is what I think as well, although I would say that at least a third of this forum should just not go. I don't know what it takes to get people to understand what has happened with law. People seem to think they understand what the employment situation is, but they don't. It seems almost impossible to convince people not to go. Many people here actively avoid advice; others just assume it doesn't apply to them. To hear that people are worried about debt while they are in law school and still continue, I just don't know what to say.

I don't understand why smart people can't do a better job of assessing their prospects. Though, perhaps the fact that a significant number of the highest scorers on the LSAT aren't going to law school, is a sign that the message is getting out.

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:18 pm

sunynp wrote:
This is what I think as well, although I would say that at least a third of this forum should just not go. I don't know what it takes to get people to understand what has happened with law. People seem to think they understand what the employment situation is, but they don't. It seems almost impossible to convince people not to go. Many people here actively avoid advice; others just assume it doesn't apply to them. To hear that people are worried about debt while they are in law school and still continue, I just don't know what to say.

I don't understand why smart people can't do a better job of assessing their prospects. Though, perhaps the fact that a significant number of the highest scorers on the LSAT aren't going to law school, is a sign that the message is getting out.



Truer words are rarely spoken my friend. While I won't deride these people, since I was one of them, I think it's fair to call a spade a spade. They just ARE NOT LISTENING. End of discussion. In my case, reading through this forum a year ago, it was a mix of: doing mental gymnastics to make it seem not as bad, blocking out all criticism of law school, overemphasizing the positives, falling into group-think, and other things too.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby shredderrrrrr » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:51 pm

I can respect you for dropping out (I always think it's best to follow your heart), but it sounds like, had you done more research before, you wouldn't have even wasted a semester's worth of money.

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:58 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:I can respect you for dropping out (I always think it's best to follow your heart), but it sounds like, had you done more research before, you wouldn't have even wasted a semester's worth of money.



And there-in, lies the rub. No research quite like doing it. Hoping to provide that "research" in a more accessible form to TLSers than I had. Not looking back though. Lost the money...oh well. Money is meaningless.

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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby 071816 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:02 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:I can respect you for dropping out (I always think it's best to follow your heart), but it sounds like, had you done more research before, you wouldn't have even wasted a semester's worth of money.



And there-in, lies the rub. No research quite like doing it. Hoping to provide that "research" in a more accessible form to TLSers than I had. Not looking back though. Lost the money...oh well. Money is meaningless.

This likely has a lot more to do with your attitude than any research you could have done. Do you envision yourself actually being happy in some other endeavor?

After all: "Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections."

jetsetter12
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby jetsetter12 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:17 pm

chimp wrote:This likely has a lot more to do with your attitude than any research you could have done. Do you envision yourself actually being happy in some other endeavor?

After all: "Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections."



Certainly, without question my attitude in the application process completely warped whatever returns sound research would have brought. I was flippant about it...assumed all would be okay. Being 20...what else can I say lol.

I am happy. I'm happy right now. Happy should be the default position. I maintain happiness by removing myself from situations that make me unhappy. I was happy before law school. I'm happy now. If at any moment I become unhappy...I have the courage to flip my life upside down. And...with soon to be 0.00 debt...I will have the financial ability to flip my life upside down and all around whenever I so choose.

TLSers...our LIVES are FREE...our hearts are FREE...have the courage to follow them. Maybe law school is right for you!!! By all means have fun! If you know in your heart its not, I can only hope you find the courage I have to boot its butt out the door..

THAT is sustainable happiness my TLS friends!!!
Last edited by jetsetter12 on Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby TLS_noobie » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:25 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
chimp wrote:This likely has a lot more to do with your attitude than any research you could have done. Do you envision yourself actually being happy in some other endeavor?

After all: "Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections."



Certainly, without question my attitude in the application process completely warped whatever returns sound research would have brought. I was flippant about it...assumed all would be okay. Being 20...what else can I say lol.

I am happy. I'm happy right now. Happy should be the default position. I maintain happiness by removing myself from situations that make me unhappy. I was happy before law school. I'm happy now. If at any moment I become unhappy...I have the courage to flip my life upside down. And...with soon to be 0.00 debt...I will have the financial ability to flip my life upside down and all around whenever I so choose.

TLSers...our LIVES are FREE...our hearts are FREE...have the courage to follow them. Maybe law school is right for you!!! By all means have fun! If you know in your heart its not, I can only hope you find the courage I have to boot it's butt out the door..

THAT is sustainable happiness my TLS friends!!!


This is very wise advice!

071816
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby 071816 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:50 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:
chimp wrote:This likely has a lot more to do with your attitude than any research you could have done. Do you envision yourself actually being happy in some other endeavor?

After all: "Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections."



Certainly, without question my attitude in the application process completely warped whatever returns sound research would have brought. I was flippant about it...assumed all would be okay. Being 20...what else can I say lol.

I am happy. I'm happy right now. Happy should be the default position. I maintain happiness by removing myself from situations that make me unhappy. I was happy before law school. I'm happy now. If at any moment I become unhappy...I have the courage to flip my life upside down. And...with soon to be 0.00 debt...I will have the financial ability to flip my life upside down and all around whenever I so choose.

TLSers...our LIVES are FREE...our hearts are FREE...have the courage to follow them. Maybe law school is right for you!!! By all means have fun! If you know in your heart its not, I can only hope you find the courage I have to boot its butt out the door..

THAT is sustainable happiness my TLS friends!!!


Props for realizing you wanted out before it's too late and good luck to you.

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NinerFan
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby NinerFan » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:06 pm

jetsetter12 wrote:Firstly I recommend reading many of the articles by Elie Mystal on AboveTheLaw.


Having a hard time taking this seriously.

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SilverE2
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby SilverE2 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:10 pm

There are three private schools in the range you described, Vandy, GW, and USC. None of them have the first semester curriculum you described and none of them have a required ethics class in the first semester.

So...sup?

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TLS_noobie
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby TLS_noobie » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:14 pm

SilverE2 wrote:There are three private schools in the range you described, Vandy, GW, and USC. None of them have the first semester curriculum you described and none of them have a required ethics class in the first semester.

So...sup?


Didn't he say T15-20? You also have UWash, UMinn, UT, UCLA...

[EDIT] RC fail on my part...didn't see "private"

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NinerFan
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby NinerFan » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:19 pm

If going by 2011 rankings, WUSTL is private too, right?

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SilverE2
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Re: Ask 1L Dropout of the Class of 2014 anything.

Postby SilverE2 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:22 pm

NinerFan wrote:If going by 2011 rankings, WUSTL is private too, right?


Here's WUSTL's 1L Fall 2011 curriculum:

http://law.wustl.edu/registrar/coursedi ... seList.pdf

No legal ethics class, no civ pro.




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