iBanking

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TLS_noobie
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iBanking

Postby TLS_noobie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:37 am

Out of curiosity:

I can't imagine this as being the best route to entering, but what kind of prospects do law school students have at breaking into iBanking? I imagine top of the class/top tier schools, but at the same time, those sorts of people probably self select BigLaw instead, or am I wrong?

I am interested in finance (coming from a non-finance background) and my wife is an iBanker. Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...but at the same time, if I were offered an opportunity at a bank, I probably wouldn't pass that up, especially when considering the climate of the legal job market right now...

Any experiences on here? I have read a few posts from some that have interned at some bulge brackets in law school, what kind of experiences do you have? You go in as an associate or an analyst? Only top grades from top schools or are cutoffs similar to BigLaw (which is essentially the same, I suppose, depending on what school you are at)?

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: iBanking

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:46 am

If you want IB, don't waste your time in law school.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: iBanking

Postby TLS_noobie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:53 am

MrPapagiorgio wrote:If you want IB, don't waste your time in law school.


I am going to assume you missed this part...

TLS_noobie wrote:Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: iBanking

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:00 am

TLS_noobie wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:If you want IB, don't waste your time in law school.


I am going to assume you missed this part...

TLS_noobie wrote:Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...

Go to law school expecting to be a lawyer. You say that you want to "focus on the legal side of things" but then in the same sentence contradict yourself and say that you would most likely not turn down an IB position. Therefore, it is not "obvious" that you want law. Spending 3 years and going into massive debt with the idea of going into IB is not TCR.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: iBanking

Postby TLS_noobie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:15 am

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:If you want IB, don't waste your time in law school.


I am going to assume you missed this part...

TLS_noobie wrote:Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...

Go to law school expecting to be a lawyer. You say that you want to "focus on the legal side of things" but then in the same sentence contradict yourself and say that you would most likely not turn down an IB position. Therefore, it is not "obvious" that you want law. Spending 3 years and going into massive debt with the idea of going into IB is not TCR.


Spending 3 years and coming out making 6 figures is the credited response lol 8)

I did not contradict myself. I said that I "would rather focus on the legal side...", but if I were presented with a situation where I have a 6 figure job staring me in the face with no law-oriented prospects to be found, then I would take this...that does not create a contradiction, because wanting a market-paying law gig and actually getting one are two different things and just because I want one but would take something else doesn't mean that I don't want the other.

I'd much rather be a lawyer but if I am offered a job in the field I am interested in but from a different --but still interesting-- point of view I would take it.
I don't want to argue about my motivations for going to law school though, I just want to know what sorts of prospects a law student has for IB. If it is none or slim then that is fine, it doesn't impact my decision to go to law school because I want to be a lawyer and I am going to law school with the intention of becoming a lawyer.
Last edited by TLS_noobie on Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

Napt
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Re: iBanking

Postby Napt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:17 am

Wharton MBAs are getting IB no-offer pwned ITE.

But srsly, IBs mainly recruit 22 year olds at HYP UG, so you're not helping yourself at all by dropping $200k on a JD. I suppose you can possibly get IB from HYS LS but you'd start with the same salary and job as the 22 year old from HYP UG.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: iBanking

Postby TLS_noobie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 am

Napt wrote:Wharton MBAs are getting IB no-offer pwned ITE.

But srsly, IBs mainly recruit 22 year olds at HYP UG, so you're not helping yourself at all by dropping $200k on a JD. I suppose you can possibly get IB from HYS LS but you'd start with the same salary and job as the 22 year old from HYP UG.


Yeah, this makes sense. I feel like the economy has hit IB worse than law (but I have no experience in the legal market yet, just based on things I've heard/read).

This also answers my other question. A law school grad will come out as an analyst then? I would imagine that unless the grad has experience in IB/finance they will be at a significant disadvantage if they were to go into an associateship; so I suppose it makes sense.

Napt
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Re: iBanking

Postby Napt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:15 am

TLS_noobie wrote:
Napt wrote:Wharton MBAs are getting IB no-offer pwned ITE.

But srsly, IBs mainly recruit 22 year olds at HYP UG, so you're not helping yourself at all by dropping $200k on a JD. I suppose you can possibly get IB from HYS LS but you'd start with the same salary and job as the 22 year old from HYP UG.


Yeah, this makes sense. I feel like the economy has hit IB worse than law (but I have no experience in the legal market yet, just based on things I've heard/read).

This also answers my other question. A law school grad will come out as an analyst then? I would imagine that unless the grad has experience in IB/finance they will be at a significant disadvantage if they were to go into an associateship; so I suppose it makes sense.

Ya unless you did something prestigious before LS like IB/BB/HF/MBB/PE (which no one does coming from LS) you likely have little to no chance of ever becoming an associate tbh. Likely scenario would be law school followed by 2-3 years as analyst followed by burnout/exit/pushed out into some other finance gig. Idk why you'd want IB after LS anyway. You MIGHT be able to get it from HYS, but even then it's prob not worth it.

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reasonable_man
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Re: iBanking

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:19 am

TLS_noobie wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:If you want IB, don't waste your time in law school.


I am going to assume you missed this part...

TLS_noobie wrote:Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...

Go to law school expecting to be a lawyer. You say that you want to "focus on the legal side of things" but then in the same sentence contradict yourself and say that you would most likely not turn down an IB position. Therefore, it is not "obvious" that you want law. Spending 3 years and going into massive debt with the idea of going into IB is not TCR.


Spending 3 years and coming out making 6 figures is the credited response lol 8)

I did not contradict myself. I said that I "would rather focus on the legal side...", but if I were presented with a situation where I have a 6 figure job staring me in the face with no law-oriented prospects to be found, then I would take this...that does not create a contradiction, because wanting a market-paying law gig and actually getting one are two different things and just because I want one but would take something else doesn't mean that I don't want the other.

I'd much rather be a lawyer but if I am offered a job in the field I am interested in but from a different --but still interesting-- point of view I would take it.
I don't want to argue about my motivations for going to law school though, I just want to know what sorts of prospects a law student has for IB. If it is none or slim then that is fine, it doesn't impact my decision to go to law school because I want to be a lawyer and I am going to law school with the intention of becoming a lawyer.



Did you watch a lot of law and order or did you just hear about the great career prospects and awesome work life balance?

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dingbat
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Re: iBanking

Postby dingbat » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:44 am

Go to a T14, get into biglaw, make sure you do transactional work for IBs for a few years, then get an in-house position with one of the IBanks you work with
It'll take 6+ years (including law school) but it is feasible

icpb
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Re: iBanking

Postby icpb » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:10 am

A lot of people at HYS had WE at top PE shops (BX, BainCap, etc.)/top BB/MBB. These people can get IB associate positions easily after LS if they wanted them. However, most of them don't want to go back to or enter IBD.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: iBanking

Postby TLS_noobie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:55 am

icpb wrote:A lot of people at HYS had WE at top PE shops (BX, BainCap, etc.)/top BB/MBB. These people can get IB associate positions easily after LS if they wanted them. However, most of them don't want to go back to or enter IBD.


Yeah, this makes sense. A couple buddies of mine went to IB from YLS but they said they just fell into it when they didn't like their SA work the summer before (they had IB experience before hand though, obviously).

reasonable_man wrote:Did you watch a lot of law and order or did you just hear about the great career prospects and awesome work life balance?


Lol, not sure how this is relevant nor am I sure how you came to think this. I have an "intimate" relationship with iBanking and I know better than most about the sacrifices/hours/crap-work an analyst is put through. I also understand that BigLaw is probably the same exact thing, just less numbers and more doc review (just a guess). But, considering the opposite of what you said: the fact that the legal prospects are $hit ITE, I figured I'd ask what alternatives there are with a JD if someone were to strike-out at OCI. But, it seems, based on the responses so far, prospects for iBanking are even more slim, so not a likely prospect. I was just curious. :)

1988AndX
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Re: iBanking

Postby 1988AndX » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:38 pm

Don't go into IB. Job prospects in IB is terrible. The heydays are gone, at least for the next few years. Although with a JD from HYS, you have better chance of not getting fired/making it past VP level than your colleagues who followed the college->analyst->MBA->associate path, it's still a tough life (especially when bonus is low).

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TLS_noobie
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Re: iBanking

Postby TLS_noobie » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:51 pm

1988AndX wrote:Don't go into IB. Job prospects in IB is terrible. The heydays are gone, at least for the next few years. Although with a JD from HYS, you have better chance of not getting fired/making it past VP level than your colleagues who followed the college->analyst->MBA->associate path, it's still a tough life (especially when bonus is low).


Gotcha! Duly noted. Thanks for the responses! I really didn't figure prospects would be all that good for JDs but I was curious to see if I was wrong, guess not. haha

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Re: iBanking

Postby TheRedMamba » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:45 pm

dingbat wrote:Go to a T14, get into biglaw, make sure you do transactional work for IBs for a few years, then get an in-house position with one of the IBanks you work with
It'll take 6+ years (including law school) but it is feasible


follow up question: How difficult is it for someone with little to no finance background and a liberal arts degree (english, poly sci, history, philosophy etc.) to get into corporate/MA law? Obviously this depends on the school, t14? t6? HYS?

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bk1
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Re: iBanking

Postby bk1 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:02 pm

TheRedMamba wrote:follow up question: How difficult is it for someone with little to no finance background and a liberal arts degree (english, poly sci, history, philosophy etc.) to get into corporate/MA law? Obviously this depends on the school, t14? t6? HYS?

Your background and degree won't have any real bearing on getting corporate work.

dooood
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Re: iBanking

Postby dooood » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:10 pm

dingbat wrote:Go to a T14, get into biglaw, make sure you do transactional work for IBs for a few years, then get an in-house position with one of the IBanks you work with
It'll take 6+ years (including law school) but it is feasible

No no no no. Investment banking (as OP means it) ≠ in house at an IB. While plenty of people go from biglaw to in-house at IBs, this will all but kill any chance of becoming a banker. Once in-house you're essentially doing compliance and are generally looked down upon by bankers.
The route that OP is thinking of is to go from biglaw (after 2 years minimum) straight to an associate position at a bank. If you're lucky they'll start you as a second year associate, so that you're further along on the track to VP. Even if you leave biglaw as a partner though, you'll still probably start as a VP (maybe as Managing Director if you do middle market M&A).
OP, you're right to think that this is a hard jump to make, simply because lawyers lack the requisite valuation skills. As you get higher up the IB food chain, however, you get further removed from DCF/multiples and start focusing on client relationships, which is why biglaw refugees start as associates and not analysts. The best thing you can do to set yourself up for a move to IB would be to work at one of the firms in the "elite" section here: http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/Editorial/36781

yale2011
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Re: iBanking

Postby yale2011 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:14 pm

.
Last edited by yale2011 on Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: iBanking

Postby dingbat » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:04 pm

dooood wrote:
dingbat wrote:Go to a T14, get into biglaw, make sure you do transactional work for IBs for a few years, then get an in-house position with one of the IBanks you work with
It'll take 6+ years (including law school) but it is feasible

No no no no. Investment banking (as OP means it) ≠ in house at an IB. While plenty of people go from biglaw to in-house at IBs, this will all but kill any chance of becoming a banker. Once in-house you're essentially doing compliance and are generally looked down upon by bankers.
The route that OP is thinking of is to go from biglaw (after 2 years minimum) straight to an associate position at a bank. If you're lucky they'll start you as a second year associate, so that you're further along on the track to VP. Even if you leave biglaw as a partner though, you'll still probably start as a VP (maybe as Managing Director if you do middle market M&A).
OP, you're right to think that this is a hard jump to make, simply because lawyers lack the requisite valuation skills. As you get higher up the IB food chain, however, you get further removed from DCF/multiples and start focusing on client relationships, which is why biglaw refugees start as associates and not analysts. The best thing you can do to set yourself up for a move to IB would be to work at one of the firms in the "elite" section here: http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/Editorial/36781

TLS_noobie wrote:I am interested in finance (coming from a non-finance background) and my wife is an iBanker. Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...but at the same time, if I were offered an opportunity at a bank, I probably wouldn't pass that up

To me, this seems like in-house.
If you want to be on the financial side, don't get a JD; either get an MBA, or start as an analyst.

dooood
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Re: iBanking

Postby dooood » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:42 pm

dingbat wrote:
dooood wrote:
dingbat wrote:Go to a T14, get into biglaw, make sure you do transactional work for IBs for a few years, then get an in-house position with one of the IBanks you work with
It'll take 6+ years (including law school) but it is feasible

No no no no. Investment banking (as OP means it) ≠ in house at an IB. While plenty of people go from biglaw to in-house at IBs, this will all but kill any chance of becoming a banker. Once in-house you're essentially doing compliance and are generally looked down upon by bankers.
The route that OP is thinking of is to go from biglaw (after 2 years minimum) straight to an associate position at a bank. If you're lucky they'll start you as a second year associate, so that you're further along on the track to VP. Even if you leave biglaw as a partner though, you'll still probably start as a VP (maybe as Managing Director if you do middle market M&A).
OP, you're right to think that this is a hard jump to make, simply because lawyers lack the requisite valuation skills. As you get higher up the IB food chain, however, you get further removed from DCF/multiples and start focusing on client relationships, which is why biglaw refugees start as associates and not analysts. The best thing you can do to set yourself up for a move to IB would be to work at one of the firms in the "elite" section here: http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/Editorial/36781

TLS_noobie wrote:I am interested in finance (coming from a non-finance background) and my wife is an iBanker. Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...but at the same time, if I were offered an opportunity at a bank, I probably wouldn't pass that up

To me, this seems like in-house.
If you want to be on the financial side, don't get a JD; either get an MBA, or start as an analyst.

Fair enough. OP should rethink the thread title then, because compliance is quite a different thing from "iBanking"

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Re: iBanking

Postby TLS_noobie » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:27 pm

dooood wrote:
dingbat wrote:
dooood wrote:
dingbat wrote:Go to a T14, get into biglaw, make sure you do transactional work for IBs for a few years, then get an in-house position with one of the IBanks you work with
It'll take 6+ years (including law school) but it is feasible

No no no no. Investment banking (as OP means it) ≠ in house at an IB. While plenty of people go from biglaw to in-house at IBs, this will all but kill any chance of becoming a banker. Once in-house you're essentially doing compliance and are generally looked down upon by bankers.
The route that OP is thinking of is to go from biglaw (after 2 years minimum) straight to an associate position at a bank. If you're lucky they'll start you as a second year associate, so that you're further along on the track to VP. Even if you leave biglaw as a partner though, you'll still probably start as a VP (maybe as Managing Director if you do middle market M&A).
OP, you're right to think that this is a hard jump to make, simply because lawyers lack the requisite valuation skills. As you get higher up the IB food chain, however, you get further removed from DCF/multiples and start focusing on client relationships, which is why biglaw refugees start as associates and not analysts. The best thing you can do to set yourself up for a move to IB would be to work at one of the firms in the "elite" section here: http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/Editorial/36781

TLS_noobie wrote:I am interested in finance (coming from a non-finance background) and my wife is an iBanker. Obviously, I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school...but at the same time, if I were offered an opportunity at a bank, I probably wouldn't pass that up

To me, this seems like in-house.
If you want to be on the financial side, don't get a JD; either get an MBA, or start as an analyst.

Fair enough. OP should rethink the thread title then, because compliance is quite a different thing from "iBanking"



OP here, and compliance/in-house is not what I meant. I merely wanted to know if there was any utility for a JD in IB (or finance in general) outside of law. I had to qualify myself with: "I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school" because I realized that many would jump on here and say "Don't go to law school if you want to get into IB." But, it seems that even with this qualification and my stated desire to become a lawyer over a career in finance, people still seem to think my primary reason to go to law school is to get into IB lol.

So, to be clear, in case I wasn't before: I created this post not to declare that I want to go into IB after law school...I created it to understand if there were any prospects outside of law in finance coming out with a JD, purely out of curiosity. I am going to law school to become a lawyer. I want to be a lawyer. dooood posted a response that was similar to what I was originally looking for, and thank you for that! :)

dooood wrote:No no no no. Investment banking (as OP means it) ≠ in house at an IB. While plenty of people go from biglaw to in-house at IBs, this will all but kill any chance of becoming a banker. Once in-house you're essentially doing compliance and are generally looked down upon by bankers.
The route that OP is thinking of is to go from biglaw (after 2 years minimum) straight to an associate position at a bank. If you're lucky they'll start you as a second year associate, so that you're further along on the track to VP. Even if you leave biglaw as a partner though, you'll still probably start as a VP (maybe as Managing Director if you do middle market M&A).
OP, you're right to think that this is a hard jump to make, simply because lawyers lack the requisite valuation skills. As you get higher up the IB food chain, however, you get further removed from DCF/multiples and start focusing on client relationships, which is why biglaw refugees start as associates and not analysts. The best thing you can do to set yourself up for a move to IB would be to work at one of the firms in the "elite" section here: http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/Editorial/36781

TheRedMamba
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Re: iBanking

Postby TheRedMamba » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:13 pm

bk1 wrote:
TheRedMamba wrote:follow up question: How difficult is it for someone with little to no finance background and a liberal arts degree (english, poly sci, history, philosophy etc.) to get into corporate/MA law? Obviously this depends on the school, t14? t6? HYS?

Your background and degree won't have any real bearing on getting corporate work.


I apologize in advance if this makes me a complete noob, but does this apply to MA also? Is MA considered under the corporate law umbrella?

dooood
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Re: iBanking

Postby dooood » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:26 pm

TheRedMamba wrote:
bk1 wrote:
TheRedMamba wrote:follow up question: How difficult is it for someone with little to no finance background and a liberal arts degree (english, poly sci, history, philosophy etc.) to get into corporate/MA law? Obviously this depends on the school, t14? t6? HYS?

Your background and degree won't have any real bearing on getting corporate work.


I apologize in advance if this makes me a complete noob, but does this apply to MA also? Is MA considered under the corporate law umbrella?

M&A is very much under the corporate law umbrella. "Corporate law" is a generic term for a range of practices comprising M&A, debt and equity capital markets, corporate governance, VC, and PE.

bdubs
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Re: iBanking

Postby bdubs » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:26 pm

TLS_noobie wrote:I created it to understand if there were any prospects outside of law in finance coming out with a JD, purely out of curiosity. I


No, generally there are not opportunities for JDs with no finance background to go into investment banking.

dooood
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Re: iBanking

Postby dooood » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:35 pm

TLS_noobie wrote:OP here, and compliance/in-house is not what I meant. I merely wanted to know if there was any utility for a JD in IB (or finance in general) outside of law. I had to qualify myself with: "I would rather focus on the legal side of things, hence, going to law school" because I realized that many would jump on here and say "Don't go to law school if you want to get into IB." But, it seems that even with this qualification and my stated desire to become a lawyer over a career in finance, people still seem to think my primary reason to go to law school is to get into IB lol.

So, to be clear, in case I wasn't before: I created this post not to declare that I want to go into IB after law school...I created it to understand if there were any prospects outside of law in finance coming out with a JD, purely out of curiosity. I am going to law school to become a lawyer. I want to be a lawyer. dooood posted a response that was similar to what I was originally looking for, and thank you for that! :)

dooood wrote:No no no no. Investment banking (as OP means it) ≠ in house at an IB. While plenty of people go from biglaw to in-house at IBs, this will all but kill any chance of becoming a banker. Once in-house you're essentially doing compliance and are generally looked down upon by bankers.
The route that OP is thinking of is to go from biglaw (after 2 years minimum) straight to an associate position at a bank. If you're lucky they'll start you as a second year associate, so that you're further along on the track to VP. Even if you leave biglaw as a partner though, you'll still probably start as a VP (maybe as Managing Director if you do middle market M&A).
OP, you're right to think that this is a hard jump to make, simply because lawyers lack the requisite valuation skills. As you get higher up the IB food chain, however, you get further removed from DCF/multiples and start focusing on client relationships, which is why biglaw refugees start as associates and not analysts. The best thing you can do to set yourself up for a move to IB would be to work at one of the firms in the "elite" section here: http://www.chambersandpartners.com/uk/Editorial/36781


You seem to know much of this already, but on the business side of banking/finance, there are no real positions that require a JD. You're right only to go to law school if you plan on being a lawyer; doing otherwise would be foolish. However, people on this site tend to underestimate the weight that a JD can carry in the business world. A degree from a T14 combined plus a few years spent at an elite corporate law firm can be a great entree into many areas of finance - even those that seem far removed from the work of a corporate lawyer (e.g. mutual fund manager). Browse the bios of middle market funds and you'll see many JDs (often combined with a tax LLM).




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