Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

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bdm261
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Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby bdm261 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:05 pm

I currently have a 3.17 LSAC GPA, due to factoring in 3 Fs and a D from the community college I quit going to after a month that I never formally withdrew from. Even though my uGPA from the school I am graduating from is 3.6, my mistake from 8 years ago will apparently forever haunt me and keep me out of better schools.

I don't think I'll score over 155 on the LSAT, I simply cannot comprehend logic games no matter how it is explained to me.

No matter what though, I am determined to go to law school. Even if I won the lottery right now, I would still want to attend law school. This is clearly what I want to do and I do not have any plan B in place. My major is in Interpersonal/Public Communication and I am not going to resign myself to working in some HR office which is just about all I can do with that.

I'm really afraid my only options in the end will be schools like Cooley, TJSOL, and the bottom of the barrel. Even if that's the case, I am still going.

When I come onto boards like this, I get the impression that if you don't go to Yale or Harvard, you're be lucky to even get employed as a lawyer...and if you go to any T3 or T4, you're going to be unemployed, poor, buried in debt, and miserable. How much of this is really true and how much of it is just from people who go to top schools and simply look down on anyone who can't perform as well as they do?

I find it hard to believe that there are law schools out there that no one gets a job coming out of.

This is not a flame, I just really want to confirm whether or not T3/T4 schools are as worthless as they're made out to be on here.

Also, a big law job is not really my goal. I want to work in criminal defense and I would ideally like to work for the PD office during law school and eventually get a position there and take advantage of LRAP.
Last edited by bdm261 on Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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johansantana21
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby johansantana21 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:11 pm

It's all true.

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sunynp
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby sunynp » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:16 pm

What evidence will it take to convince you? If you have done research and you are still not convinced, I don't know what more anyone can say or show you. Just think about all the debt you will owe, how will you repay it?

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rayiner
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby rayiner » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:23 pm

Your GPA is decent. If you're determined to go to law school, then work on your LSAT. I know plenty of people who started out in the 140's or 150's and got 167+ by doing every one of the PowerScore Bibles and every available practice test. On my diagnostic, I couldn't even answer half the logic games even after giving myself an hour and a half on the section. After I learned to diagram them, I was regularly getting -1/-2 on the section.

You can't say "I won't score about X on the LSAT" until you do all three PowerScore Bibles, do every single available practice test, and use up all three of your retakes.

Think of it this way. People hiring in the legal field look first at your law school, then at your law school grades. A legal recruiter is more interested in someone with average grades from a T20 then they are in someone with great grades from a T3/T4. Given that, doesn't it make sense to gun for a year, at a cost of $200 or so in prep materials, to destroy the LSAT, than it does to gun for three years, at the cost of $35k/year in tuition, to get great grades at a T3/T4 school?

As for how real the stories of unemployment from T3/T4 schools are... Start with William and Mary, a T50 school: http://law.wm.edu/careerservices/docume ... le2011.pdf

Out of 204 graduates in the class of 2011, 143 (or 70%) were employed in full-time, long-term positions 9 months after graduation. That means 30% of the class hadn't found permanent work after nearly a year of looking.

Now, take a T3/T4 like Widener University (one of the better ones, as the only law school in Delaware!): http://law.widener.edu/CampusLife/Caree ... Stats.ashx

Of the 376 graduates in the class of 2010, 192 (51%) had full time legal work 9 months after graduation.

Now, take a truly bad T3/T4 like Cooley: http://www.cooley.edu/overview/_docs/20 ... Report.pdf

Of the 999 graduates in the class of 2011, 495 (50%) had a full time, permanent professional position 9 months after graduation. Only 37% had a permanent position that required bar passage. And that number is itself highly suspect, because as the data notes in small print "Note also that graduates working for legal temporary agencies were classified as full- time/long term due to the nature of their employment contract with the temporary agency." Only 12 people, out of a class of 999, got a job at a firm with > 50 attorneys. That's 1.2% of the class.

And note that in the above, we're talking about any kind of job. The way the ABA statistics work, those 190 Cooley grads who work in firms of 2-10 attorneys could be doing paralegal work and would still be counted. If you look at the salary statistics, the vast majority of those graduates didn't even report a salary (only 36% did), and of those the median salary was $42,000. That is a good outcome at Cooley, working as an associate in a 2-10 attorney firm making $42,000.

Note also that not a single person at Cooley, not even the #1 in their class, got a Federal clerkship. That's the big line between T20, T50, and T3/T4. At a T20, selective employers will look at average people. At a T50 selective employers will look at the top of the class. At a T3/T4, selective employers won't look at you at all, no matter how much you gun during your three years of law school.
Last edited by rayiner on Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kaiser
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby kaiser » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:28 pm

I would strongly advise you to keep plugging away at the LSAT. I know students at 2nd tier schools in the upper half of their class who cannot find a shred of legal work. And they said this is pretty representative of how things are right now, with people struggling and scrambling. So now imagine what it is like at a school far worse than his T2 like Cooley, Thomas Jefferson. This site sometimes goes a bit overboard in our skepticism and caution, but we are just trying to be a counterpoint to the completely unrealistic, irresponsible, and delusional stories you hear about some glamorized lifestyle that supposedly begins the moment your law degree touches your hands.

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Oklahoma2014
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby Oklahoma2014 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:35 pm

BDM - For me, logic games was the most difficult section without proper prepping. However, it's the area I saw the quickest improvement once I learned how to approach the games.

You can't do much about your gpa at this point, but you can absolutely do better than 155 on the LSAT with enough time and proper prep.

You can do it!

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:36 pm

bdm261 wrote:I don't think I'll score over 155 on the LSAT, I simply cannot comprehend logic games no matter how it is explained to me.


When I started studying for the LSAT I would consistently miss over half of the questions on the games section. (Maybe closer to 2/3's of the questions?) Don't let that define you. My brain doesn't naturally work in the way that makes games easy. I am horrible at spatial reasoning. But games can be so incredibly learnable. After a ton of studying I was able to get to the point where I only missed between 0 and 3 questions when taking a games section. It might take a ton of smart studying, but don't sell yourself short when it comes to the LSAT. It's a very learnable test, and games is the most learnable section.

checkster
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby checkster » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:45 pm

Not that you can't improve on games, but you can bomb that section and still do much better than 155. Where are you from? Any solid regional schools an option that wouldn't break the bank?

nini11
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby nini11 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:02 pm

I would advise against going to a school not in the top 100. Even those close to the end if the ranking since they can leave it at anytime.... Prep for the LSAt as if your life depended on it, your GPA is ok, your lsat will be a deciding factor, good luck!

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:08 pm

1. I taught the LAST. A large % of 170+ scorers start in the 140s and 50s.

2. T3 and 4 schools are usually not the best option. Exception is for those schools which own regions but don't place into NYC (Wyoming, Texas Tech).

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Kikero
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby Kikero » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:21 pm

bdm261 wrote:I simply cannot comprehend logic games no matter how it is explained to me...

...I find it hard to believe that there are law schools out there that no one gets a job coming out of.


Forgive me, I couldn't resist :p

Seriously though, you've got boatloads of time to work on the LSAT, with a high enough LSAT score, you can definitely get into some T1 schools despite your low GPA. Luckily, Logic Games seems to be your biggest weakness (from the limited info I have) and it's probably the easiest section to improve on. Pick up a couple of these:

Image Image

to work on when you're not actively studying and you can definitely get above a 155.

bdm261
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby bdm261 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:41 pm

checkster wrote:Not that you can't improve on games, but you can bomb that section and still do much better than 155. Where are you from? Any solid regional schools an option that wouldn't break the bank?


I'm in Akron, OH. Akron, Case, Cleveland, Toldeo, and Dayton are all acceptable to me. My original goal was to go out of state either on the east or west coast and establish myself there, but I am a little dissuaded when I hear that out-of-towners aren't favored by legal employers.

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Kikero
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby Kikero » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:53 pm

bdm261 wrote:
checkster wrote:Not that you can't improve on games, but you can bomb that section and still do much better than 155. Where are you from? Any solid regional schools an option that wouldn't break the bank?


I'm in Akron, OH. Akron, Case, Cleveland, Toldeo, and Dayton are all acceptable to me. My original goal was to go out of state either on the east or west coast and establish myself there, but I am a little dissuaded when I hear that out-of-towners aren't favored by legal employers.


Have you looked at OSU? With a mid to high 160's LSAT you'd have a shot, much higher than that and you'd have a shot at some money, especially if you bump up your GPA this year.

MrAnon
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:02 pm

I don't know what your problem is with HR jobs, or any other job you could try to get fresh out of college, but your job prospects out of a T3 or T4 will be on similar scale in the field of law, so I would say if you don't find your current options palatable, you certainly won't down the road. The only difference will be that you will have sunk even more money on education, and if you think various fields are limited to you now, just wait until you have a law degree and law is the only field you can find work in.

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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:05 pm

and like someone above said, you've done the research, you know the answer. There is always hope among aspirants that someone will overturn what they suspect in order to fulfill some romanticized dream of what going to law school is like, but you won't find it among current students or recent grads I promise you.

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futurejdgirl
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby futurejdgirl » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:24 pm

Please, please study more and focus for the LSAT.

I have the same GPA as you because of a horrible first year (with good reason).

My diagnostic LSAT was 156. I ended up scoring a 162. I know I could do better but my 3.01 GPA and 162 LSAT got me into Baylor with scholarship, Hofstra with scholarship, American University, USD, UMiami... and a waitlist at Emory. The majority of these are T2/lower T-1 schools.

My friend, who is definitely not the brightest crayon in the box, in fact - I don't know if she will be able to handle law school - scored in the 140s on her first LSAT in October. She took some time to study and really analyze what she missed, with a private tutor (not always necessary) and ended up with a 160.

This is the one time where I have to agree with everyone else - your LSAT can make such a differnece in your prospects. If it's anything that I've learned - it really is NOT purely a numbers game. I was "deny" for a lot of schools on LSP but I actually got into them. If youre so passionate about the law and succeeding in law school, you need to learn how to draw patterns quickly and identify missing links, the way logic games teaches you. Don't let this one test ruin your future for you. If you want to make it in law school, you're going to need to get over the attitude of "no one's explanation works for me" and figure out an alternative way around that works for you.

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PARTY
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby PARTY » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:29 pm

futurejdgirl wrote:This is the one time where I have to agree with everyone else - your LSAT can make such a differnece in your prospects. If it's anything that I've learned - it really is NOT purely a numbers game.


huh?

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rbgrocio
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby rbgrocio » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:31 pm

Going to a T4 which became a T3 during my second year, worked out just fine for me. Many of my friends who go to the same school have also secured jobs... but if you go to a T3-T4 you MUST be top of the class OR have someone who can hook you up upon graduation.

With that being said, even people who go to T1s are struggling to find jobs... The economy is just bad.

Jinomas
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby Jinomas » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:11 pm

I could make a go at a local #89 or #119 school because of my connections. I work for an attorney who would love to hire me as an attorney if he could. He has been encouraging me to go to law school.

But just having JD from a T3 or T4 may not be enough enough if you don't have such connections.

I have seriously considered going to these schools because of the scholarships they have offered me, but I'll probably end up at a top 50 school because of my wife's job.

The LSAT logic games didn't make any sense to me at first either, but at law school I assume you got to study and to prove you can study, study for the LSAT.

bdm261
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby bdm261 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:28 pm

Kikero wrote:
bdm261 wrote:
checkster wrote:Not that you can't improve on games, but you can bomb that section and still do much better than 155. Where are you from? Any solid regional schools an option that wouldn't break the bank?


I'm in Akron, OH. Akron, Case, Cleveland, Toldeo, and Dayton are all acceptable to me. My original goal was to go out of state either on the east or west coast and establish myself there, but I am a little dissuaded when I hear that out-of-towners aren't favored by legal employers.


Have you looked at OSU? With a mid to high 160's LSAT you'd have a shot, much higher than that and you'd have a shot at some money, especially if you bump up your GPA this year.


I would jump at the chance to attend OSU if I can pull the numbers. I'm finishing out UG by taking ridiculously easy classes like "career planning" which is meant for undeclared freshmen just for the sake of raising my GPA.

I am trying to get LG. I'm taking a Kaplan course now and they make it seem so easy but it really isn't in my experience. I even enrolled in Intro to Logic for Fall semester just because I foresee having to retake the LSAT in October, although the logic class itself will run until Dec.

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rayiner
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby rayiner » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:29 pm

bdm261 wrote:
Kikero wrote:
bdm261 wrote:
checkster wrote:Not that you can't improve on games, but you can bomb that section and still do much better than 155. Where are you from? Any solid regional schools an option that wouldn't break the bank?


I'm in Akron, OH. Akron, Case, Cleveland, Toldeo, and Dayton are all acceptable to me. My original goal was to go out of state either on the east or west coast and establish myself there, but I am a little dissuaded when I hear that out-of-towners aren't favored by legal employers.


Have you looked at OSU? With a mid to high 160's LSAT you'd have a shot, much higher than that and you'd have a shot at some money, especially if you bump up your GPA this year.


I would jump at the chance to attend OSU if I can pull the numbers. I'm finishing out UG by taking ridiculously easy classes like "career planning" which is meant for undeclared freshmen just for the sake of raising my GPA.

I am trying to get LG. I'm taking a Kaplan course now and they make it seem so easy but it really isn't in my experience. I even enrolled in Intro to Logic for Fall semester just because I foresee having to retake the LSAT in October, although the logic class itself will run until Dec.


Use PowerScore or TestMasters. Kaplan sucks.

bdm261
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby bdm261 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:30 pm

Jinomas wrote:I could make a go at a local #89 or #119 school because of my connections. I work for an attorney who would love to hire me as an attorney if he could. He has been encouraging me to go to law school.

But just having JD from a T3 or T4 may not be enough enough if you don't have such connections.

I have seriously considered going to these schools because of the scholarships they have offered me, but I'll probably end up at a top 50 school because of my wife's job.

The LSAT logic games didn't make any sense to me at first either, but at law school I assume you got to study and to prove you can study, study for the LSAT.


I do have some connections. I have an uncle who runs a successful criminal defense firm and I work as a legal assistant to one of the top securities attorneys in the country. I have some optimism that if I manage to get a degree from anywhere, aba accredited at least, my family and professional contacts would help me out.
Last edited by bdm261 on Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:31 pm

rayiner wrote:Use PowerScore or TestMasters. Kaplan sucks.

or Blueprint or Velocity or Manhattan (if that's an option)
Last edited by moneybagsphd on Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bdm261
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby bdm261 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:31 pm

Use PowerScore or TestMasters. Kaplan sucks.


Yeah, unfortunately I didn't do my research before spending $1,400 on their course...

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Please objectively tell me the realities for T3, T4 grads?

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:33 pm

bdm261 wrote:
Use PowerScore or TestMasters. Kaplan sucks.


Yeah, unfortunately I didn't do my research before spending $1,400 on their course...

PowerScore bibles. Remember, sinking another $1,400 in a different prep program (that works for you) is a better investment than TTT(T)uition.




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