NLJ Go-To Schools list...

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TLS_noobie
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NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby TLS_noobie » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:57 pm

Am I wrong in saying: NLJ Go-To Law Schools Rankings >>>>> USNWR?

link to 2010 NLJ Go-To Schools: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... s_main.pdf

Have they released a list for 2011 yet though? If not, are they going to?

[EDIT]
I suppose I should have mentioned that I meant in relation to firm hiring. Obviously the NLJ list isn't good for other intentions such as clerkships and what not.

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bk1
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby bk1 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:08 am

The NLJ rankings are deficient as well. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Stanford are too low since their grads tend to clerk at a higher rate than other schools. Not to mention that the NLJ rankings don't take into account people who choose to go into PI rather than do biglaw. It also doesn't factor in that certain markets have large firms that pay market (and are thus still biglaw) yet are not part of the NLJ 250 (e.g. TX, MN, etc). Also important is that deviations of a few percent in the rankings don't necessarily mean anything since percentages fluctuate from year to year. The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).

Finally, note that sometimes there are huge fluctuations in NLJ rankings years to year (see Cornell) and thus it is hard to place too much stock in any given year's ranking. Thus the NLJ rankings, while useful, aren't something to hold as the holy grail and merely another set of rankings to help factor into your decision.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby TLS_noobie » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:35 am

bk1 wrote:The NLJ rankings are deficient as well. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Stanford are too low since their grads tend to clerk at a higher rate than other schools. Not to mention that the NLJ rankings don't take into account people who choose to go into PI rather than do biglaw. It also doesn't factor in that certain markets have large firms that pay market (and are thus still biglaw) yet are not part of the NLJ 250 (e.g. TX, MN, etc). Also important is that deviations of a few percent in the rankings don't necessarily mean anything since percentages fluctuate from year to year. The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).

Finally, note that sometimes there are huge fluctuations in NLJ rankings years to year (see Cornell) and thus it is hard to place too much stock in any given year's ranking. Thus the NLJ rankings, while useful, aren't something to hold as the holy grail and merely another set of rankings to help factor into your decision.


Thanks for the reply! I guess it is only good for BigLaw and even at that you are right in saying the rankings aren't engraved in stone by any means and therefore are difficult to hold as gospel. But I guess it is just good as another factor for the decision equation. Any idea if there will be a 2011 one?

landla
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby landla » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:37 am

bk1 wrote:The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).


This is probably a dumb question, especially since it sounds familiar so I've probably seen it/something similar, but where is this?

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby ph14 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:37 am

landla wrote:
bk1 wrote:The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).


This is probably a dumb question, especially since it sounds familiar so I've probably seen it/something similar, but where is this?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

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bk1
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby bk1 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:11 am

ph14 wrote:
landla wrote:
bk1 wrote:The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).


This is probably a dumb question, especially since it sounds familiar so I've probably seen it/something similar, but where is this?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681


This should be clearer (granted those graphs are also helpful as well):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108528

The issue is that the most recent clerkship data available is class of 2009 (the data comes from USNWR and that's the most recent data they make available)

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bk1
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby bk1 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:13 am

TLS_noobie wrote:Thanks for the reply! I guess it is only good for BigLaw and even at that you are right in saying the rankings aren't engraved in stone by any means and therefore are difficult to hold as gospel. But I guess it is just good as another factor for the decision equation. Any idea if there will be a 2011 one?


There should be a 2011 one (they've done it every year for at least 5 years). They all come out around the same time each year (I can't remember what it is, but I'm sure it's findable).

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TLS_noobie
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby TLS_noobie » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:39 am

bk1 wrote:
ph14 wrote:
landla wrote:
bk1 wrote:The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).


This is probably a dumb question, especially since it sounds familiar so I've probably seen it/something similar, but where is this?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681


This should be clearer (granted those graphs are also helpful as well):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108528

The issue is that the most recent clerkship data available is class of 2009 (the data comes from USNWR and that's the most recent data they make available)


After a little bit of searching, it seems that last years (the 2011 NLJ list with 2010's data) came out around February 28. So, perhaps this year's will come out in the next few weeks.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:56 pm

I also found this thread helpful:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150004

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ben4847
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby ben4847 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:00 pm

TLS_noobie wrote:Am I wrong in saying: NLJ Go-To Law Schools Rankings >>>>> USNWR?

link to 2010 NLJ Go-To Schools: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/goto%20l ... s_main.pdf

Have they released a list for 2011 yet though? If not, are they going to?

[EDIT]
I suppose I should have mentioned that I meant in relation to firm hiring. Obviously the NLJ list isn't good for other intentions such as clerkships and what not.


No, it makes no sense to follow this, even if aiming at biglaw.
This list has Yale number 15. However, anyone in Yale who wants to do biglaw, can. So, if you want to do biglaw, you are much better off in Yale than in Chicago where plenty of people every year don't get biglaw who do want it.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby birdlaw117 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:34 pm

bk1 wrote: The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).

I don't think I would call it the best rankings, but it's certainly some of the most useful data.

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bk1
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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby bk1 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:37 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
bk1 wrote: The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).

I don't think I would call it the best rankings, but it's certainly some of the most useful data.


I'm not saying it's anywhere close to perfect or that it should be the only thing to be relied upon, but as far as rankings go it's about as good as I have seen.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby ph14 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:39 pm

bk1 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
bk1 wrote: The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).

I don't think I would call it the best rankings, but it's certainly some of the most useful data.


I'm not saying it's anywhere close to perfect or that it should be the only thing to be relied upon, but as far as rankings go it's about as good as I have seen.


Agreed.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby birdlaw117 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:53 pm

bk1 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
bk1 wrote: The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).

I don't think I would call it the best rankings, but it's certainly some of the most useful data.


I'm not saying it's anywhere close to perfect or that it should be the only thing to be relied upon, but as far as rankings go it's about as good as I have seen.

It does a pretty good job, but it can't factor in exception such as self-selection bias. Hence why Yale is consistently not at the top. It also has a bias toward schools that feed into NYC Biglaw.

I just don't think it's a good ranking system. It would be a great factor to include in a ranking system, but not by itself. Anyway, not the point. It's useful data, this much we can agree on.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby Errzii » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:17 pm

While this information is helpful it's important to keep in mind that the most recent data is for the c/o of 2010 which did OCI in 2008. These numbers aren't meant to portray the state of the legal market as it is currently and it will likely be different by the time c/o 2015 does OCI, for better or worse. Be wary that these stats can also change dramatically in just a short span of time, e.g., USC had 40%~ NLJ placement for 2007 but only 28%~ for 2010.
Last edited by Errzii on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby bk1 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:20 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:It does a pretty good job, but it can't factor in exception such as self-selection bias. Hence why Yale is consistently not at the top. It also has a bias toward schools that feed into NYC Biglaw.

I just don't think it's a good ranking system. It would be a great factor to include in a ranking system, but not by itself. Anyway, not the point. It's useful data, this much we can agree on.


Completely agree. I wish there was more data available or that the data we had was easier to parse.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby TLS_noobie » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:24 pm

Thanks for all the replies, TLS-Collective!

As far as my own personal ranking system is concerned, I have been using a combination of LST's employment data (which I think is USNWR data?), NLJ Go-To School's rankings, as well as the NALP directory to see the number of BigLaw (read "big entry salary") firms actually come/visit/interview at the particular school I am looking at. I also take a look at some top firms to see how many attorneys have gained entrance into their ranks from said school (but this is sort of a check for alumni network strength). This is purely based off of employment prospects and for me that is the number 1 priority. I also take into account scholly and financial stuff but when it comes down to it, employment is the most important statistic, for me at least. Any other stuff I should take a look at?

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby barneytrouble » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:18 pm

TLS_noobie wrote:Thanks for all the replies, TLS-Collective!

As far as my own personal ranking system is concerned, I have been using a combination of LST's employment data (which I think is USNWR data?), NLJ Go-To School's rankings, as well as the NALP directory to see the number of BigLaw (read "big entry salary") firms actually come/visit/interview at the particular school I am looking at. I also take a look at some top firms to see how many attorneys have gained entrance into their ranks from said school (but this is sort of a check for alumni network strength). This is purely based off of employment prospects and for me that is the number 1 priority. I also take into account scholly and financial stuff but when it comes down to it, employment is the most important statistic, for me at least. Any other stuff I should take a look at?


Not that it is easily available, but WHERE in the NLJ250 the grads are placed is also something to consider if that is the sort of thing you care about. Not all vault100 firms are created equal etc. For example, Cornell topped the list last year in NLJ250%, but if you came up with some sort of scoring system that accounted for where in the vault rankings their grads placed, they still would come up behind a school like Columbia.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby IAFG » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:30 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
bk1 wrote: The best rankings I have ever seen is a combination of the NLJ rankings and the percentage of grads going into A3 clerkships, but as noted even that is not perfect (though it is obviously better than just the NLJ).

I don't think I would call it the best rankings, but it's certainly some of the most useful data.


I'm not saying it's anywhere close to perfect or that it should be the only thing to be relied upon, but as far as rankings go it's about as good as I have seen.

It does a pretty good job, but it can't factor in exception such as self-selection bias. Hence why Yale is consistently not at the top. It also has a bias toward schools that feed into NYC Biglaw.

I just don't think it's a good ranking system. It would be a great factor to include in a ranking system, but not by itself. Anyway, not the point. It's useful data, this much we can agree on.

Right now, it's incredibly useful, because nonprofits & gov't aren't really hiring. When that starts to happen again, top students at top schools will be going to places like DOJ, NRDC, etc, and then the new numbers will be more subject to issues like self-selection.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby Nobody » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:27 pm

barneytrouble wrote:Not that it is easily available, but WHERE in the NLJ250 the grads are placed is also something to consider if that is the sort of thing you care about. Not all vault100 firms are created equal etc. For example, Cornell topped the list last year in NLJ250%, but if you came up with some sort of scoring system that accounted for where in the vault rankings their grads placed, they still would come up behind a school like Columbia.


Could you elaborate on what you know about this? I asked in another thread and got laughed out of the room.

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Re: NLJ Go-To Schools list...

Postby IAFG » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:39 pm

barneytrouble wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:Thanks for all the replies, TLS-Collective!

As far as my own personal ranking system is concerned, I have been using a combination of LST's employment data (which I think is USNWR data?), NLJ Go-To School's rankings, as well as the NALP directory to see the number of BigLaw (read "big entry salary") firms actually come/visit/interview at the particular school I am looking at. I also take a look at some top firms to see how many attorneys have gained entrance into their ranks from said school (but this is sort of a check for alumni network strength). This is purely based off of employment prospects and for me that is the number 1 priority. I also take into account scholly and financial stuff but when it comes down to it, employment is the most important statistic, for me at least. Any other stuff I should take a look at?


Not that it is easily available, but WHERE in the NLJ250 the grads are placed is also something to consider if that is the sort of thing you care about. Not all vault100 firms are created equal etc. For example, Cornell topped the list last year in NLJ250%, but if you came up with some sort of scoring system that accounted for where in the vault rankings their grads placed, they still would come up behind a school like Columbia.

Fair enough, but schools where students aren't looking to go to NY (and where top students take V50s over V10s to avoid going to NY) look worse than they deserve when you rank by Vault.




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