How fulfilling is Law School.

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marmot8
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby marmot8 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:55 pm

D'Angelo wrote:did you like high school middle school? because then you'll love law school!


FTFY

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Danny Mothers
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Danny Mothers » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:58 am

Qwerty12345 wrote:I see. I think this comes from my probably very naive idea that the material and questions you find in LS are somewhat similar to the LSAT material (ie. flaws of an argument, parallels between ideas, logic reasoning, ect...). I find LSAT studying highly enjoyable (when bored, I do LSAT mock questions for fun). What degree, if law school doesn't, would involve exercising and developing that type of thinking?

Thanks


math

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fashiongirl
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby fashiongirl » Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:49 pm

An attorney I work with told me that law school is like church. So take that for what it's worth.

mrloblaw
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby mrloblaw » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:58 pm

mr.undroppable wrote:I graduated from a T14, working at a biglaw firm in NYC, fairly satisfied with my experience in law school but that's largely because I didn't expect nor seek out fulfillment from it. I basically treated it as a 3 year vacation with two months a year of work (finals).

Law school isn't fulfilling at all because it isn't designed to be fulfilling. Even if you 1L/2Ls think it's fulfilling now, you'll realize it's mostly a credentialing sham and may end up disillusioned upon graduation. The bar exam is so goddamn easy that it doesn't help separating the people who can get work done and the losers. So this elaborate credentialing system was created that requires three years of the most productive years of your life, lot's of money and competitive exams that bear no relation whatsoever to the actual profession to sort people out. Law school is a joke, only people who think that their opinion matters to others (you're wrong) enjoy it and those are almost uniformly depressed with the actual practice of law when they basically get told to review documents and proofread shit that the more senior people write for at least the first couple years of practice (go visit other sites with more practicing attorneys for proof of this). The only people I know who managed to keep their sense of fulfillment are those who are dead set on becoming academics and returning to law school as professors where they will have a captive audience with no choice but to listen to them bloviate on obscure, ultimately meaningless, issues.

The practice of law can be fulfilling once you get senior. But don't make the mistake and see law school as an end in itself, it's a stepping stone, don't let it trip you up or make you depressed. Have fun, get good grades and be sure to cultivate interests outside of law school where you can get fulfillment. It's not healthy to base your sense of self on how some ancient professor, decades away from being useful to anyone outside of law school, chooses to dole out grades.


This, entirely. Lawl school is a set of arbitrary contests and stepping-stones designed to rank-order students, where, at the majority of schools, even those at the bottom of the curve are more than sufficiently intelligent and hard-working to do just about any legal job.

Imagine if you will a world in which there were ten times as many people who wanted to be janitors than there were jobs in the "sanitation engineering" industry. Imagine that the janitors of this world proposed the following solution: (1) organize a cabal under which one cannot be a janitor without entering, (2) membership in the cabal is predicated upon spending three years learning obscure sitcom trivia, and being rank ordered against all other cabal members through performance on a series of examinations over such career-essential knowledge as which character from the M*A*S*H film was removed from the TV series once the writing staff was informed that there were no black M*A*S*H surgeons during the Korean War, and (3) one's employment prospects in the industry are entirely pre-determined by performance on those asinine examinations.

That's lawl school in a nutshell. Sound fulfilling? Because, personally, I want to weep, knowing that even if I somehow win this little contest, the fact that I chose to participate at all makes me a bigger loser than I could have imagined I'd ever become five years ago.
Last edited by mrloblaw on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Odd Future Wolf Gang
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Odd Future Wolf Gang » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:35 pm

Damn. A lot of you guys sound miserable as fuck. You guys think law school made you that way or do miserable people just self-select themselves into law school?

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Grizz
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:38 pm

Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:Damn. A lot of you guys sound miserable as fuck. You guys think law school made you that way or do miserable people just self-select themselves into law school?

Law school made me this way.

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Odd Future Wolf Gang
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Odd Future Wolf Gang » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:50 pm

Grizz wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:Damn. A lot of you guys sound miserable as fuck. You guys think law school made you that way or do miserable people just self-select themselves into law school?

Law school made me this way.


Sorry to hear that. I've been considering this question myself. I just graduated UG and am working full-time. I am UNFULFILLED as FUCK at where I am in my life right now. I was really hoping law school would be a more meaningful experience. But man, you guys make it sound fucking horrible.

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NYC Law
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:52 pm

Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:Damn. A lot of you guys sound miserable as fuck. You guys think law school made you that way or do miserable people just self-select themselves into law school?

Law school made me this way.


Sorry to hear that. I've been considering this question myself. I just graduated UG and am working full-time. I am UNFULFILLED as FUCK at where I am in my life right now. I was really hoping law school would be a more meaningful experience. But man, you guys make it sound fucking horrible.


Life in general is pretty unfulfilling. Chasing fulfillment is like chasing unicorns. My motto is fuck fulfillment, get money.

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Grizz
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:58 pm

NYC Law wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:Damn. A lot of you guys sound miserable as fuck. You guys think law school made you that way or do miserable people just self-select themselves into law school?

Law school made me this way.


Sorry to hear that. I've been considering this question myself. I just graduated UG and am working full-time. I am UNFULFILLED as FUCK at where I am in my life right now. I was really hoping law school would be a more meaningful experience. But man, you guys make it sound fucking horrible.


Life in general is pretty unfulfilling. Chasing fulfillment is like chasing unicorns. My motto is fuck fulfillment, get money.

Credited.

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Patriot1208
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:06 pm

D'Angelo wrote:did you like high school? because then you'll love law school!

You've convinced me

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Odd Future Wolf Gang
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Odd Future Wolf Gang » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:12 pm

I am just curious: for those of you who do not find law school to be fulfilling, what was your major in college?

Geist13
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Geist13 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:29 pm

what the hell is all this juvenile romanticism? Look, fulfilling is a good book or a great camping trip with some friends. Law school is SCHOOL which is supposed to lead to a JOB. These are not fulfilling things, nor are they intended to be. Even if you're thinking about fulfilling in the sense that your 300 level philosophy class was kind fulfilling, law school is not. Legal concepts and reasoning operate at a very simple level. It is uncomplicated, incredibly easy to grasp and usually dry.

PRO TIP: don't make life decisions on what you think you will be fulfilled by. Make life choices on what is actually the best decision for you.

My undergrad major was philosophy.

Law school didn't make me this way. Working in the real world before law school made me this way. Its healthy to rid yourself of this infantile idealism; part of growing up.

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AlanShore
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby AlanShore » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:30 pm

Geist13 wrote:what the hell is all this juvenile romanticism? Look, fulfilling is a good book or a great camping trip with some friends. Law school is SCHOOL which is supposed to lead to a JOB. These are not fulfilling things, nor are they intended to be. Even if you're thinking about fulfilling in the sense that your 300 level philosophy class was kind fulfilling, law school is not. Legal concepts and reasoning operate at a very simple level. It is uncomplicated, incredibly easy to grasp and usually dry.

PRO TIP: don't make life decisions on what you think you will be fulfilled by. Make life choices on what is actually the best decision for you.

My undergrad major was philosophy.

Law school didn't make me this way. Working in the real world before law school made me this way. Its healthy to rid yourself of this infantile idealism; part of growing up.

+100

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philly_law
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby philly_law » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:37 pm

AlanShore wrote:Law school is A SCAM which is supposed to, but often doesn't, lead to a JOB

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Odd Future Wolf Gang
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Odd Future Wolf Gang » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:42 pm

Geist13 wrote:PRO TIP: don't make life decisions on what you think you will be fulfilled by. Make life choices on what is actually the best decision for you.


I am not in your position, so I don't want to argue. But I am curious: you really think the above are mutually exclusive? I mean, is it so hard to imagine finding something both fulfilling AND best for me? Or best for me precisely because it is fulfilling?

Geist13
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Geist13 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:56 pm

Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:I am not in your position, so I don't want to argue. But I am curious: you really think the above are mutually exclusive? I mean, is it so hard to imagine finding something both fulfilling AND best for me? Or best for me precisely because it is fulfilling?


Well yes, when it comes to professions and jobs, yes, they are mutually exclusive. Only the very, incredibly rare career will be fulfilling. It's so rare that to consider it as part of your decision making process will lead to mistakes and inevitable regret. You won't be fulfilled by your career. I promise you. No matter what. It's just a job dude.

To be clear, I actually enjoy law school. It's so much more fun than working 70 hours a week. It's like a three year camp. I do all my work on the weekends and on weeknights just chill, watch sports, drink beer, and bang my wife. Life really just really doesn't get much better than that. The worst part is that most law students are horrible, one-dimensional, and mostly stupid people.

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Antilles Haven
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Antilles Haven » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:01 pm

I'm already more fulfilled than I want to be with law school, and I'm only halfway done.

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cinephile
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby cinephile » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:20 pm

Geist13 wrote:what the hell is all this juvenile romanticism? Look, fulfilling is a good book or a great camping trip with some friends. Law school is SCHOOL which is supposed to lead to a JOB. These are not fulfilling things, nor are they intended to be. Even if you're thinking about fulfilling in the sense that your 300 level philosophy class was kind fulfilling, law school is not. Legal concepts and reasoning operate at a very simple level. It is uncomplicated, incredibly easy to grasp and usually dry.

PRO TIP: don't make life decisions on what you think you will be fulfilled by. Make life choices on what is actually the best decision for you.

My undergrad major was philosophy.

Law school didn't make me this way. Working in the real world before law school made me this way. Its healthy to rid yourself of this infantile idealism; part of growing up.


I like you.
Last edited by cinephile on Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mrloblaw
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby mrloblaw » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:50 pm

Geist13 wrote:what the hell is all this juvenile romanticism? Look, fulfilling is a good book or a great camping trip with some friends. Law school is SCHOOL which is supposed to lead to a JOB. These are not fulfilling things, nor are they intended to be. Even if you're thinking about fulfilling in the sense that your 300 level philosophy class was kind fulfilling, law school is not. Legal concepts and reasoning operate at a very simple level. It is uncomplicated, incredibly easy to grasp and usually dry.

PRO TIP: don't make life decisions on what you think you will be fulfilled by. Make life choices on what is actually the best decision for you.

My undergrad major was philosophy.

Law school didn't make me this way. Working in the real world before law school made me this way. Its healthy to rid yourself of this infantile idealism; part of growing up.


I'm with Grizz: lawl school made me this way.

Most people are unhappy in their careers because: (1) most people lack the socioeconomic advantages, intelligence, or blind luck to end up in a fulfilling career track, and (2) most people are woefully ignorant of what actually makes them happy in life. It's the second problem that holds back most students (and potential students) of elite law schools. I don't have many classmates who are total idiots or in abject poverty, so they can probably find a career where the people tend to be a bit happier.

The best thing to be said about lawl school is that, unless you're a total gunner, it really doesn't take much time out of your day/week. The worst thing to be said about it is (tie) everything else that can possibly be said about it.

timbs4339
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:25 pm

I was a history major at a big state school and now attend a T6.

The thinks that make law school fulfilling aren't what I thought they would be. I thought I'd be interested in the material and challenged on an intellectual level. I was wrong. mr.undroppable is spot on in his assessment of the people who enjoy law school classes. If find the whole Langdellian/Socratic/think like a lawyer teaching method to be just a convenient excuse for professors who want to invest very little time into teaching.

What I did find fulfilling was my ability to intern/work at some cool places, which I wouldn't have been able to do if I didn't go here. I even met my g/f at one of these jobs. I also found the stereotypes of the people to be greatly exaggerated. Yeah, there are assholes, but there were assholes in high school and assholes in college. I've made some very good friends to, and what I'll probably remember most fondly about this whole experience is just sitting around in bars talking bullshit with some smart people. I feel privileged that I was able to spend three years around people who are largely in the top few percentiles of intelligence in my age group.

I have a lot of anger about still not having a job lined up. If it wasn't for that, 3L would probably be one of the best years of my life, although still not as great as the last semester of college.

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JoeFish
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby JoeFish » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 am

To provide a counterpoint to the majority of this - and it's possible I'm just not jaded yet - I just completed the first semester of my 1L year, and I am absolutely in love with lawl school. This semester has been 10x better/more enjoyable than any previous semester of schooling I've received in my life. I was a mathematics major in college, and I really enjoyed the material, but had no real desire to do it as a career, and felt myself going through the motions quite a bit. But in all honesty, I find LS to be extremely fulfilling. But I'm weird like that. I'd say that probably between 5% and 10% of my class feels like that, and most either somewhat enjoy it but would rather be back in college or absolutely hate it but are trying to push through to the end when they can get a job. I am absolutely in love with the material. I really like reading cases. I like enough of my fellow law students that I can usually position myself to be far away from the people who annoy the crap out of me (there are more than enough of them too).
So... consider that. 5% chance you'll be like me and lawl school will fill you with a warm, delicious sense of fulfillment that you'd never felt before. Much better chance you won't enjoy it that much, I take it.

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Grizz
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:25 am

JoeFish wrote:To provide a counterpoint to the majority of this - and it's possible I'm just not jaded yet - I just completed the first semester of my 1L year, and I am absolutely in love with lawl school. This semester has been 10x better/more enjoyable than any previous semester of schooling I've received in my life. I was a mathematics major in college, and I really enjoyed the material, but had no real desire to do it as a career, and felt myself going through the motions quite a bit. But in all honesty, I find LS to be extremely fulfilling. But I'm weird like that. I'd say that probably between 5% and 10% of my class feels like that, and most either somewhat enjoy it but would rather be back in college or absolutely hate it but are trying to push through to the end when they can get a job. I am absolutely in love with the material. I really like reading cases. I like enough of my fellow law students that I can usually position myself to be far away from the people who annoy the crap out of me (there are more than enough of them too).
So... consider that. 5% chance you'll be like me and lawl school will fill you with a warm, delicious sense of fulfillment that you'd never felt before. Much better chance you won't enjoy it that much, I take it.

Got grades?

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JoeFish
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby JoeFish » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:26 am

Grizz wrote:Got grades?

Ummmmm... yes. They're good. So that helps. I still felt that way before I got them, but the warm fuzziness is now intensified.

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Grizz
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:29 am

JoeFish wrote:
Grizz wrote:Got grades?

Ummmmm... yes. They're good. So that helps.

lol that's what I thought

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PDaddy
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Re: How fulfilling is Law School.

Postby PDaddy » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:31 am

flcath wrote:I personally feel the profession as a whole (or at least the education we receive) is unnecessary. That's not so say it's not important for a lawyer to be smart--I absolutely think it is--I just think that being smart is >>> the training/knowledge that LS gives you.

If I were a client with a complex legal issue, I'd rather be represented by a kid with 173 (LSAT) intelligence


There's no such thing as 173 "intelligence". The LSAT is NOT an intelligence test. Moreover, there are many trained lawyers with 170+ LSAT's and high bar scores who don't know sh*t about the law or how to practice it.

On the flip-side, it isn't as easy to just research and practice the law as you might think. Pro se litigants have it tough when opposed by educated, licensed, skilled, experienced attorneys. There are subtleties that only experienced lawyers will know, which is why they tend to cream even the smartest pro se litigants in court, all else being held equal (intelligence, instincts, passion, life experience, etc.).




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