International Student Options

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captainawesome
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:08 am

International Student Options

Postby captainawesome » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:35 am

Ok guys,

Recently I discovered that I developed the rather unpleasant trait of worrying. This happened when I walked into the ABN-AMRO here in Amsterdam last Monday and they announced that they will be replacing the graduate-degree-loan (a wonderful neo-socialist loan which allows you to pay back with a minute amount of interest, and a 10yr grace period after your degree) with loans-to-size. This basically means no grace period and a staggering amount of interest per year.

So as I can choose how much debt I want to get into I've been, I have been weighing the NL LLB+LLM +US LLM or +US JD question. I've been to various counselors & firm dinners, but all NL attorneys working in NL (many had a US LLM though, so that is a minimal requirement I set for myself)

The question: what are the chances of a Dutch law student to get into BigLaw? (with the following background, time frame 5 years)

LLB University of Amsterdam
LLM EU Private Law University of Amsterdam
JD T15 (NYU, Berkeley, UCLA, USC)
Bar Certification in both countries
Plently of extracurriculars, summer schools/programs
Speak 4 languages (native)

Thanks in advance!

captainawesome
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:08 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby captainawesome » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:53 am

Whoops forgot to add Columbia to that list.

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Jah'rakal
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: International Student Options

Postby Jah'rakal » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:19 pm

bring back a lsat score and gpa

captainawesome
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:08 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby captainawesome » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:01 pm

Not done with my LLB so no LSAT, but currently on a 3.41

After re-reading the post an additional question would be: would having an LLM EU Public Law be any serious advantage? (Note I could get that at Leyden as well, seeing both are basically 'free' anyway). These aren't eastern european jungle uni's we are talking about, so to what extent would you think it would be taken into account?

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20130312
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: International Student Options

Postby 20130312 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:11 pm

You think loans over there are bad, wait until you start looking into U.S. law schools :shock:

captainawesome
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:08 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby captainawesome » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:20 pm

Haha I know, but the loans would be for the US law schools in question, and I did my research. It is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Every degree I choose to pursue here costs 1600 a year. Otherwise described as 500 family-sized packs of toilet paper.

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Jah'rakal
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:06 pm

Re: International Student Options

Postby Jah'rakal » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:35 pm

u can smoke a lot of weed and bang many hos in amsterdam for that money, or so i've heard, why waste it on school?

captainawesome
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:08 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby captainawesome » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:00 pm

I sure not sure ABN-I'mBroke would approve of a 200k loan for weed & hookers. But seriously, let me put this into some perspective. Relative financial security in Uni gets countered by extremely low wages. Little to no attorneys make more than 40000 in their first 3 years (incl A&O, Baker, DLA, Clifford etc).

anstone1988
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: International Student Options

Postby anstone1988 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:09 pm

captainawesome wrote:Not done with my LLB so no LSAT, but currently on a 3.41

After re-reading the post an additional question would be: would having an LLM EU Public Law be any serious advantage? (Note I could get that at Leyden as well, seeing both are basically 'free' anyway). These aren't eastern european jungle uni's we are talking about, so to what extent would you think it would be taken into account?


For admissions? No effect. For OCI, no effect. It would be very hard for foreigners to get biglaw in the US ITE because the firms would have to sponsor you.

bracton
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:07 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby bracton » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:57 am

anstone1988 wrote:
captainawesome wrote:Not done with my LLB so no LSAT, but currently on a 3.41

After re-reading the post an additional question would be: would having an LLM EU Public Law be any serious advantage? (Note I could get that at Leyden as well, seeing both are basically 'free' anyway). These aren't eastern european jungle uni's we are talking about, so to what extent would you think it would be taken into account?


For admissions? No effect. For OCI, no effect. It would be very hard for foreigners to get biglaw in the US ITE because the firms would have to sponsor you.


It is not much harder for foreigners to get Biglaw in the US than usual. But, you need to decide where you want to work, long-term. Biglaw firms always want foreigners so that they can send them to offices overseas. As you have a European passport, you'll be attractive to firms that have offices over there. Whether you want to work in Europe is a different matter.

I am not quite sure about this
captainawesome wrote:Speak 4 languages (native)

as I find it unlikely that anyone would be "native" in four languages, and law firms will be equally skeptical. But, if you're fluent, your language skills will be helpful for getting your foot in the door.

Forget the LLMs in EU law -- they will be of almost no interest to a US firm, unless you really want to work for a European office. If you are keen on working in the US, it is better not to have them.

If you want to be sure of working for biglaw in the US, and not being hired simply so that a firm can send you back to Europe, you probably want to aim for HS for the LLM (forget Y, that's for academics) or Columbia.

captainawesome
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:08 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby captainawesome » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:45 am

bracton wrote:But, you need to decide where you want to work, long-term. Biglaw firms always want foreigners so that they can send them to offices overseas. As you have a European passport, you'll be attractive to firms that have offices over there. Whether you want to work in Europe is a different matter.


Now that's something I can work with. 5/10 years before moving back would be the aim. Being able to work in both common & civil law jurisdictions. Dad did the same, but it was a different world back then...

captainawesome wrote:Speak 4 languages (native)


Right, 2 native and 2 'native' (fluent) according to their respective governments' immigration exams

bracton wrote: If you are keen on working in the US, it is better not to have them.


What do you mean by 'better not'? Because I will be automatically shuttled back to the home office? I thought the common & civil law combo might pose as an advantage in private law, like Dutch fiscal law applicants are preferred with US LLM's in taxation over here.

bracton
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:07 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby bracton » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:19 am

captainawesome wrote:
bracton wrote: If you are keen on working in the US, it is better not to have them.


What do you mean by 'better not'? Because I will be automatically shuttled back to the home office? I thought the common & civil law combo might pose as an advantage in private law, like Dutch fiscal law applicants are preferred with US LLM's in taxation over here.


An LLM in EU private or public law will just make you look as if you want to work in Europe. It would be of no benefit at all if you want to practice in the US. I say this as someone who's worked in two large US firms. If you want to go straight back to Europe after studying here, fine -- but in that case, there's little point in getting more debt and coming here. The example you draw from taxation is not relevant: tax is one of a very few areas where practitioners with LLMs are preferred, and the complexities of international companies' tax affairs obviously make US tax LLMs desirable in Europe.

On rereading your posts, it seems also that your GPA may get in the way a bit. I don't know if that's an LSAC GPA or if you'll have to do the weird "superior," "above average," etc. conversion for foreign scores, but 3.41 doesn't look as if it'll get you into a school you want to go to.

captainawesome
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:08 am

Re: International Student Options

Postby captainawesome » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:32 am

Thanks for the explanation there, makes sense tax goes one way and not the other way around! Yes I need to jump hoops on the conversions, so they may not be entirely accurate until I can add up the term results together due to pass/fail awards & lack of A-F.




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