T6

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Bildungsroman
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Re: T6

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:31 pm

jellybean8 wrote: I also disagree that this topic has been heavily discussed.

I agree. All we need now is a thread on "the T14 of lay prestige" and a thread asking whether bad grades will get you no-offered, and then we'll be well on our way to answering all of TLS's under-addressed questions.

jellybean8
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Re: T6

Postby jellybean8 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:33 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
jellybean8 wrote: I also disagree that this topic has been heavily discussed.

I agree. All we need now is a thread on "the T14 of lay prestige" and a thread asking whether bad grades will get you no-offered, and then we'll be well on our way to answering all of TLS's under-addressed questions.



I was asking why people chose T 6 as opposed to T 5 or T 7. Really simple question. I don't understand why people on here get so angry at the world.

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birdlaw117
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Re: T6

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:34 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
jellybean8 wrote: I also disagree that this topic has been heavily discussed.

I agree. All we need now is a thread on "the T14 of lay prestige" and a thread asking whether bad grades will get you no-offered, and then we'll be well on our way to answering all of TLS's under-addressed questions.

I'm also really curious about where I would fall on the curve had I gone to a lower-ranked school. Can we discuss that as well?

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IAFG
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Re: T6

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:36 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
jellybean8 wrote: I also disagree that this topic has been heavily discussed.

I agree. All we need now is a thread on "the T14 of lay prestige" and a thread asking whether bad grades will get you no-offered, and then we'll be well on our way to answering all of TLS's under-addressed questions.

I'm also really curious about where I would fall on the curve had I gone to a lower-ranked school. Can we discuss that as well?

The really pressing question: is affirmative action warranted? Also, why are you guys so harsh on lower-tiered schools. Some people don't even want biglaw.

Snape
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Re: T6

Postby Snape » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:43 pm

T6 is a made up term for people who didn't get HYS but want to think they are better than T-14. It means nothing, most firms wouldn't have a clue what it is supposed to mean, and is pathetic and sad if you really think about it.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: T6

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:44 pm

Snape wrote:T6 is a made up term for people who didn't get HYS but want to think they are better than T-14. It means nothing, most firms wouldn't have a clue what it is supposed to mean, and is pathetic and sad if you really think about it.

T14 is a term made up by sad sacks at GULC to try and convince people that they're an elite law school.

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TUP
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Re: T6

Postby TUP » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:47 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I don't understand why Cornell doesn't seem to be getting much love. If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year). Anyone who would claim that Cornell is inferior to MVPB or even N may be relying too much on US News rankings.


Last four years averaged:

Columbia (63.7%)
Chicago (63.4%)
Penn (60.2%)
Northwestern (59.2%)
NYU (57.9%)
Cornell (56.0%)
Harvard (54.0%)
Virginia (53.7%)
Berkeley (53.0%)
Duke (52.2%)
Michigan (51.2%)
Stanford (50.9%)
GULC (44.5%)
Vanderbilt (40.5%)
USC (40.3%)
UCLA (38.1%)
Boston (37.3%)
GWU (34.9%)

"If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year)" So no. And once you figure out how low Cornell's placement is into things like clerkships and academia, Cornell's situation starts to look a lot bleaker.


2007-2009 for A3 placement in the T14 is below. I don't think 2010 is out yet.

Yale (31.4%)
Stanford (22.5%)
Harvard (17.1%)
Duke (12.1%)
UVA (11.6%)
Penn (11.2%)
Michigan (11.1%)
Chicago (10.6%)
Columbia (9.1%)
Cornell (8.2%)
Northwestern (7.9%)
NYU (7.9%)
Berkeley (7.8%)
Georgetown (6%)

The already small differences in NLJ placement look even smaller in some cases when A3 placement is factored in. Being in NYC probably helps NYU and Penn a lot considering reports of offer rates and class sizes over the past 4 years. CCN with P close to that groups makes sense considering, whereas the best argument for separating MVPB from DNC seems to be that if enough lawyers read TLS it might become real. That, or whoever created it thought he/she was separating the publics from privates.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: T6

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:48 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
jellybean8 wrote: I also disagree that this topic has been heavily discussed.

I agree. All we need now is a thread on "the T14 of lay prestige" and a thread asking whether bad grades will get you no-offered, and then we'll be well on our way to answering all of TLS's under-addressed questions.

Notre Dame

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sundance95
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Re: T6

Postby sundance95 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:50 pm

TUP wrote:2007-2009 for A3 placement in the T14 is below. I don't think 2010 is out yet.

Yale (31.4%)
Stanford (22.5%)
Harvard (17.1%)
Duke (12.1%)
UVA (11.6%)
Penn (11.2%)
Michigan (11.1%)
Chicago (10.6%)
Columbia (9.1%)
Cornell (8.2%)
Northwestern (7.9%)
NYU (7.9%)
Berkeley (7.8%)
Georgetown (6%)

Needs moar Texas.

Also:
TUP wrote:the best argument for separating MVPB from DNC seems to be that if enough lawyers read TLS it might become real. That, or whoever created it thought he/she was separating the publics from privates.

Protip: hiring attorneys don't read TLS, although you're right about Penn State. Must be rough there after the departure of JoePa.

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Helmholtz
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Re: T6

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:07 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I don't understand why Cornell doesn't seem to be getting much love. If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year). Anyone who would claim that Cornell is inferior to MVPB or even N may be relying too much on US News rankings.


Last four years averaged:

Columbia (63.7%)
Chicago (63.4%)
Penn (60.2%)
Northwestern (59.2%)
NYU (57.9%)
Cornell (56.0%)
Harvard (54.0%)
Virginia (53.7%)
Berkeley (53.0%)
Duke (52.2%)
Michigan (51.2%)
Stanford (50.9%)
GULC (44.5%)
Vanderbilt (40.5%)
USC (40.3%)
UCLA (38.1%)
Boston (37.3%)
GWU (34.9%)

"If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year)" So no. And once you figure out how low Cornell's placement is into things like clerkships and academia, Cornell's situation starts to look a lot bleaker.


Here's what it looks like for the T14 schools once Art III clerkship data is added:

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

edit: to clarify, this is 2007-2010 NLJ250 data added to 2007-2009 clerkship data, so far from a perfect look, but it gives you an idea.

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JDizzle2015
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Re: T6

Postby JDizzle2015 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:11 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Here's what it looks like for the T14 schools once Art III clerkship data is added:

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

edit: to clarify, this is 2007-2010 NLJ250 data added to 2007-2009 clerkship data, so far from a perfect look, but it gives you an idea.


Ugh, these numbers are making me doubt Michigan...

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TUP
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Re: T6

Postby TUP » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:27 pm

sundance95 wrote:
TUP wrote:2007-2009 for A3 placement in the T14 is below. I don't think 2010 is out yet.

Yale (31.4%)
Stanford (22.5%)
Harvard (17.1%)
Duke (12.1%)
UVA (11.6%)
Penn (11.2%)
Michigan (11.1%)
Chicago (10.6%)
Columbia (9.1%)
Cornell (8.2%)
Northwestern (7.9%)
NYU (7.9%)
Berkeley (7.8%)
Georgetown (6%)

Needs moar Texas.

Also:
TUP wrote:the best argument for separating MVPB from DNC seems to be that if enough lawyers read TLS it might become real. That, or whoever created it thought he/she was separating the publics from privates.

Protip: hiring attorneys don't read TLS, although you're right about Penn State. Must be rough there after the departure of JoePa.


That's my point on the MVPB v. DNC distinction. The Choosing a Law School section had hundreds of 0L posts regurgitating the same advice that pushed that distinction when I made my decision last year. Digging into the numbers shows a different story and could probably eliminate 90% of the posts in that forum.

9.1% for Texas, which is right there with Columbia and between Chicago and Cornell.

horrorbusiness
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Re: T6

Postby horrorbusiness » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:27 pm

arent all these percentages misleading without also listing the actual cladd size? dont some schools literally have 2x the class size of others?

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Helmholtz
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Re: T6

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:36 pm

horrorbusiness wrote:arent all these percentages misleading without also listing the actual cladd size? dont some schools literally have 2x the class size of others?


Percentages account for class size?

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birdlaw117
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Re: T6

Postby birdlaw117 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:41 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
horrorbusiness wrote:arent all these percentages misleading without also listing the actual cladd size? dont some schools literally have 2x the class size of others?


Percentages account for class size?

I mean, it's not a ridiculous question because presumably firms aren't planning on taking twice as many CLS or NYU students than Chicago students and so it impacts results that way. But in reality, I think that's just an argument for attending the smaller school.

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Flash
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Re: T6

Postby Flash » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:48 pm

One thing to keep in mind is Northwestern's WE requirement. I'm sure that helps them outperform their rank relative to BMVD.

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IAFG
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Re: T6

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:56 pm

Flash wrote:One thing to keep in mind is Northwestern's WE requirement. I'm sure that helps them outperform their rank relative to BMVD.

What do you mean by "outperform their rank"

kaiser
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Re: T6

Postby kaiser » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:58 pm

IAFG wrote:
Flash wrote:One thing to keep in mind is Northwestern's WE requirement. I'm sure that helps them outperform their rank relative to BMVD.

What do you mean by "outperform their rank"


As in, by having so many students with work experience (which employers obviously love) they would have employment statistics that would be closer to (or even exceeding) those of schools ranked higher.
Last edited by kaiser on Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Flash
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Re: T6

Postby Flash » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:58 pm

IAFG wrote:
Flash wrote:One thing to keep in mind is Northwestern's WE requirement. I'm sure that helps them outperform their rank relative to BMVD.

What do you mean by "outperform their rank"

I mean it'd be dumb of someone to pick Duke or Michigan over Northwestern simply because they're ranked higher.

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Helmholtz
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Re: T6

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:59 pm

Flash wrote:One thing to keep in mind is Northwestern's WE requirement. I'm sure that helps them outperform their rank relative to BMVD.


Absolutely. I really think that this distorts NU's placement numbers—but I don't know by how much. As somebody who did OCI, the biggest correlation to success (other than grades) that I could see was work experience. As far as I could tell and generally speaking, people with X class rank and work experience outperformed people with X class rank but no work experience. When you essentially have an entire class with that boost, it's difficult to pull apart how much of a class's success is credited to the strength of the school or their own personal work experience.

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IAFG
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Re: T6

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:02 pm

kaiser wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Flash wrote:One thing to keep in mind is Northwestern's WE requirement. I'm sure that helps them outperform their rank relative to BMVD.

What do you mean by "outperform their rank"


As in, by having so many students with work experience (which employers obviously love) they would have statistics that would be closer to those of schools ranked higher.

Yeah it's a clever trick to improve our placement, but then, our placement is similar to Cornell's and Duke's. I think our "better" stats over them has more to do with self-selection away from PI. Edit: and the fact that they're not meaningfully different.

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IAFG
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Re: T6

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:04 pm

Flash wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Flash wrote:One thing to keep in mind is Northwestern's WE requirement. I'm sure that helps them outperform their rank relative to BMVD.

What do you mean by "outperform their rank"

I mean it'd be dumb of someone to pick Duke or Michigan over Northwestern simply because they're ranked higher.

True, I think people should 1) really only look at a school's placement in the field and region their interested in but 2) also recognize that +/-5% placement isn't very meaningful.

iamrobk
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Re: T6

Postby iamrobk » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:16 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I don't understand why Cornell doesn't seem to be getting much love. If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year). Anyone who would claim that Cornell is inferior to MVPB or even N may be relying too much on US News rankings.


Last four years averaged:

Columbia (63.7%)
Chicago (63.4%)
Penn (60.2%)
Northwestern (59.2%)
NYU (57.9%)
Cornell (56.0%)
Harvard (54.0%)
Virginia (53.7%)
Berkeley (53.0%)
Duke (52.2%)
Michigan (51.2%)
Stanford (50.9%)
GULC (44.5%)
Vanderbilt (40.5%)
USC (40.3%)
UCLA (38.1%)
Boston (37.3%)
GWU (34.9%)

"If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year)" So no. And once you figure out how low Cornell's placement is into things like clerkships and academia, Cornell's situation starts to look a lot bleaker.


Here's what it looks like for the T14 schools once Art III clerkship data is added:

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

edit: to clarify, this is 2007-2010 NLJ250 data added to 2007-2009 clerkship data, so far from a perfect look, but it gives you an idea.

So are we changing it to T7 (yay Penn) or T13 (GeorgeTTTown)? :P

kaiser
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Re: T6

Postby kaiser » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:17 pm

iamrobk wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:I don't understand why Cornell doesn't seem to be getting much love. If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year). Anyone who would claim that Cornell is inferior to MVPB or even N may be relying too much on US News rankings.


Last four years averaged:

Columbia (63.7%)
Chicago (63.4%)
Penn (60.2%)
Northwestern (59.2%)
NYU (57.9%)
Cornell (56.0%)
Harvard (54.0%)
Virginia (53.7%)
Berkeley (53.0%)
Duke (52.2%)
Michigan (51.2%)
Stanford (50.9%)
GULC (44.5%)
Vanderbilt (40.5%)
USC (40.3%)
UCLA (38.1%)
Boston (37.3%)
GWU (34.9%)

"If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year)" So no. And once you figure out how low Cornell's placement is into things like clerkships and academia, Cornell's situation starts to look a lot bleaker.


Here's what it looks like for the T14 schools once Art III clerkship data is added:

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

edit: to clarify, this is 2007-2010 NLJ250 data added to 2007-2009 clerkship data, so far from a perfect look, but it gives you an idea.

So are we changing it to T7 (yay Penn) or T13 (GeorgeTTTown)? :P


I'm pretty sure we changed it to T13 like the day the rankings came out earlier this year

iamrobk
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Re: T6

Postby iamrobk » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:21 pm

kaiser wrote:
iamrobk wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Last four years averaged:

Columbia (63.7%)
Chicago (63.4%)
Penn (60.2%)
Northwestern (59.2%)
NYU (57.9%)
Cornell (56.0%)
Harvard (54.0%)
Virginia (53.7%)
Berkeley (53.0%)
Duke (52.2%)
Michigan (51.2%)
Stanford (50.9%)
GULC (44.5%)
Vanderbilt (40.5%)
USC (40.3%)
UCLA (38.1%)
Boston (37.3%)
GWU (34.9%)

"If you averaged big law placement among the schools outside HYS over the last 4-5 years, Cornell would be in the top 3 (even with its one bad year)" So no. And once you figure out how low Cornell's placement is into things like clerkships and academia, Cornell's situation starts to look a lot bleaker.


Here's what it looks like for the T14 schools once Art III clerkship data is added:

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

edit: to clarify, this is 2007-2010 NLJ250 data added to 2007-2009 clerkship data, so far from a perfect look, but it gives you an idea.

So are we changing it to T7 (yay Penn) or T13 (GeorgeTTTown)? :P


I'm pretty sure we changed it to T13 like the day the rankings came out earlier this year

Not the UT-Austin kids. :lol:




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