Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

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mrloblaw
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby mrloblaw » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:13 am

IAFG wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:So your problem was when I said something to the effect of "People who don't work as hard in law school tend to do worse than people who work hard. People who don't do as well as others at law school tend to end up in public interest as opposed to, say biglaw. The people who did well tend to end up in biglaw more so than, say public interest. Thus, as a class, are hardworking people subsidizing less hardworking people through programs such as LRAP?" Is that where the point of contention is? It sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to get upset about something to be honest.

Bolded is what I primarily take issue with, because I don't think it's true. That said, even if you're right, I don't think it's factually accurate that your tuition is significantly "subsidizing" LRAP. Do you know that the per-student spending outweighs tuition after you deduct merit aid? I can't find the data, but I strongly suspect most of that money is (technically) getting spent to benefit you. If I am wrong, I will concede that you might be partially subsidizing "low performers," but I think you're making an unwarranted assumption, and even if you are, the amount you subsidize them is minimal.

FWIW I am not paying sticker and (God willing) not taking advantage of my school's LRAP, so I don't have any skin in this game. I just know my PI friends who stuck with PI after OCI could easily have landed biglaw if they'd wanted to.


The real elephant in the room is that OPs tuition dollars, like every other law student's, are primarily being used to subsidize his professor's articles on underwater basket-weaving law in the newest issue of the Journal of Nobody Gives a Flying Fuck. The three cents he might be pitching at his classmate is really trivial in the grand scheme of things.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:13 am

paul_m86 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You know what would make this thread awesome? If OP goes to Chicago, his "dumb-student subsidizing" LRAP subsidizes the dumbest of the dumb: federal clerks. Those slackers.

Also, I hear that people who go out for the DOJ, SEC, SG and the like are pretty stupid too. Seriously, freaking underachievers. I mean, look at all of those slacker judges on the 7th circuit! SG's office (Easterbrook), DOJ Antitrust (Wood) - if their schools had had LRAP programs when they graduated, they would have been prying subsidies from their betters!!

And man, Obama. Community organizing. What a dumb that guy is. Harvard EIC is for slackers.

Oh, and truly, only dumbs go to law school with the express desire of doing prosecution or defense work. That kind of work has no nobility to it whatsoever.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the OP is [misinformed] and should probably stop digging himself deeper.


Picking out very specific examples when I've made it extremely clear this whole time that I'm speaking from a very broad perspective?


Yeah, I sure did pick out really specific examples when I basically said "biggov." Hint: Emphasis vs. overall point.

If your law school really is subsidizing stupid people, you probably shouldn't complain about that. I'll let you figure out why. But it will probably take you awhile.

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:15 am

You know, I think we have all been successfully trolled. I'm the last person to cry "troll," but I think this might be one of the better examples i've seen. I mean this thread is up to 6 pgs.

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:17 am

IAFG wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:So your problem was when I said something to the effect of "People who don't work as hard in law school tend to do worse than people who work hard. People who don't do as well as others at law school tend to end up in public interest as opposed to, say biglaw. The people who did well tend to end up in biglaw more so than, say public interest. Thus, as a class, are hardworking people subsidizing less hardworking people through programs such as LRAP?" Is that where the point of contention is? It sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to get upset about something to be honest.

Bolded is what I primarily take issue with, because I don't think it's true. That said, even if you're right, I don't think it's factually accurate that your tuition is significantly "subsidizing" LRAP. Do you know that the per-student spending outweighs tuition after you deduct merit aid? I can't find the data, but I strongly suspect most of that money is (technically) getting spent to benefit you. If I am wrong, I will concede that you might be partially subsidizing "low performers," but I think you're making an unwarranted assumption, and even if you are, the amount you subsidize them is minimal.

FWIW I am not paying sticker and (God willing) not taking advantage of my school's LRAP, so I don't have any skin in this game. I just know my PI friends who stuck with PI after OCI could easily have landed biglaw if they'd wanted to.


You're right. I could be making some bad assumptions here, possibly being skewed by the fact that probably more people do public interest work over 2L summer as plan B to biglaw than actually end up working in public interest after graduation.

So you don't know anybody at your school who was PI going into law school, struck out at OCI, and are now doing PI for at least 2L summer? Seems like I've run into a fair amount of those people here...

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:19 am

I'm sure many of our parents are pissed that they're subsidizing your loans.

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:23 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You know what would make this thread awesome? If OP goes to Chicago, his "dumb-student subsidizing" LRAP subsidizes the dumbest of the dumb: federal clerks. Those slackers.

Also, I hear that people who go out for the DOJ, SEC, SG and the like are pretty stupid too. Seriously, freaking underachievers. I mean, look at all of those slacker judges on the 7th circuit! SG's office (Easterbrook), DOJ Antitrust (Wood) - if their schools had had LRAP programs when they graduated, they would have been prying subsidies from their betters!!

And man, Obama. Community organizing. What a dumb that guy is. Harvard EIC is for slackers.

Oh, and truly, only dumbs go to law school with the express desire of doing prosecution or defense work. That kind of work has no nobility to it whatsoever.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the OP is [misinformed] and should probably stop digging himself deeper.


Picking out very specific examples when I've made it extremely clear this whole time that I'm speaking from a very broad perspective?


Yeah, I sure did pick out really specific examples when I basically said "biggov." Hint: Emphasis vs. overall point.

If your law school really is subsidizing stupid people, you probably shouldn't complain about that. I'll let you figure out why. But it will probably take you awhile.


"Biggov" hiring is practically nonexistent, isn't it? Also, what kind of salary does DOJ start at? Isn't it the higher range of most LRAPs?

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:26 am

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:I'm sure many of our parents are pissed that they're subsidizing your loans.


good one, bro

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:31 am

paul_m86 wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:I'm sure many of our parents are pissed that they're subsidizing your loans.


good one, bro


Thanks. You're an idiot, but a gracious idiot nonetheless.

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IAFG
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:32 am

paul_m86 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:So your problem was when I said something to the effect of "People who don't work as hard in law school tend to do worse than people who work hard. People who don't do as well as others at law school tend to end up in public interest as opposed to, say biglaw. The people who did well tend to end up in biglaw more so than, say public interest. Thus, as a class, are hardworking people subsidizing less hardworking people through programs such as LRAP?" Is that where the point of contention is? It sounds like you're just looking for an excuse to get upset about something to be honest.

Bolded is what I primarily take issue with, because I don't think it's true. That said, even if you're right, I don't think it's factually accurate that your tuition is significantly "subsidizing" LRAP. Do you know that the per-student spending outweighs tuition after you deduct merit aid? I can't find the data, but I strongly suspect most of that money is (technically) getting spent to benefit you. If I am wrong, I will concede that you might be partially subsidizing "low performers," but I think you're making an unwarranted assumption, and even if you are, the amount you subsidize them is minimal.

FWIW I am not paying sticker and (God willing) not taking advantage of my school's LRAP, so I don't have any skin in this game. I just know my PI friends who stuck with PI after OCI could easily have landed biglaw if they'd wanted to.


You're right. I could be making some bad assumptions here, possibly being skewed by the fact that probably more people do public interest work over 2L summer as plan B to biglaw than actually end up working in public interest after graduation.

So you don't know anybody at your school who was PI going into law school, struck out at OCI, and are now doing PI for at least 2L summer? Seems like I've run into a fair amount of those people here...


I know exactly one 3L who struck out at 2L OCI and then did (prestigious) PI, but that person had better grades than I do. I suspect it was bad bidding. I also know several 3Ls who had great grades and skipped OCI and have done everything they could to position themselves for getting PI work, which in some cases included skipping doing write-on. Apparently public defenders don't really care if you're on LR.

I know a few 2Ls who don't have jobs yet and are trying to get firm work still. It's certainly possible they might end up having to do PI, but each of the ones I've talked to about it would rather do small-law. I know several people with good, median and bad grades who skipped OCI. They came in pursuing PI or gov't and still are.

I definitely haven't noticed a phenomenon of people striking out then going balls-out PI. Maybe people at NU are just a little more set in their preferences and aren't as inclined to "turn" on private practice after striking out.

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:34 am

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:I'm sure many of our parents are pissed that they're subsidizing your loans.


good one, bro


Thanks. You're an idiot, but a gracious idiot nonetheless.


By how butthurt you seem to be about this thread, you seem more than ready to start PI-gunning (getting butthurt over people questioning your career choice is #1 prerequisite to PI work). Good luck.

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:35 am

paul_m86 wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:I'm sure many of our parents are pissed that they're subsidizing your loans.


good one, bro


Thanks. You're an idiot, but a gracious idiot nonetheless.


By how butthurt you seem to be about this thread, you seem more than ready to start PI-gunning (getting butthurt over people questioning your career choice is #1 prerequisite to PI work). Good luck.


WTF is butthurt? Is that what you used to say to your mom as a kid after visiting your deadbeat dad at his trailer on the weekends?

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:37 am

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:WTF is butthurt. Is that what you used to say to your mom as kid after visiting your deadbeat dad at his trailer on the weekends.


holy shit.....

now you're implying that my father sexually abused me?

don't even know what to say.....

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20121109
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby 20121109 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:40 am

paul_m86 wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:WTF is butthurt. Is that what you used to say to your mom as kid after visiting your deadbeat dad at his trailer on the weekends.


holy shit.....

now you're implying that my father sexually abused me?

don't even know what to say.....


If you guys continue to go at it, I will be forced to lock this thread.

I don't really want to as people have remained on-topic so far, regardless of the discussion's actual merit. So please, remember to keep it on-topic and not let it degenerate into a bitchfest.

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:41 am

IAFG wrote:I know a few 2Ls who don't have jobs yet and are trying to get firm work still. It's certainly possible they might end up having to do PI, but each of the ones I've talked to about it would rather do small-law.


What kind of small law work? Like writing wills for the local townspeople? Or is "small law" code for plaintiff's side work, e.g. suing asbestos companies? As far as I can tell, that's the only type of private law firm work a lot of die hard public interest people will touch.

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:41 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:WTF is butthurt. Is that what you used to say to your mom as kid after visiting your deadbeat dad at his trailer on the weekends.


holy shit.....

now you're implying that my father sexually abused me?

don't even know what to say.....


If you guys continue to go at it, I will be forced to lock this thread.

I don't really want to as people have remained on-topic so far, regardless of the discussion's actual merit. So please, remember to keep it on-topic and not let it degenerate into a bitchfest.


Thanks :D

I agree, it was getting really out of hand...

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:41 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:WTF is butthurt. Is that what you used to say to your mom as kid after visiting your deadbeat dad at his trailer on the weekends.


holy shit.....

now you're implying that my father sexually abused me?

don't even know what to say.....


If you guys continue to go at it, I will be forced to lock this thread.

I don't really want to as people have remained on-topic so far, regardless of the discussion's actual merit. So please, remember to keep it on-topic and not let it degenerate into a bitchfest.


duly noted

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IAFG
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:58 am

paul_m86 wrote:
IAFG wrote:I know a few 2Ls who don't have jobs yet and are trying to get firm work still. It's certainly possible they might end up having to do PI, but each of the ones I've talked to about it would rather do small-law.


What kind of small law work? Like writing wills for the local townspeople? Or is "small law" code for plaintiff's side work, e.g. suing asbestos companies? As far as I can tell, that's the only type of private law firm work a lot of die hard public interest people will touch.

No, they're not PI people or looking for Plaintiffs work necessarily, they just struck out and keep grinding at applications. There are firms in tertiary markets that haven't wrapped up hiring, and OCS claims smaller firms will still hire in the spring. If people have been switching gears and gunning for PI, I haven't heard about it.

forty-two
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby forty-two » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:32 am

paul_m86 wrote: I think you're overestimating how easy some public interest work is to get. Sure, the DOJ or ACLU may be tough to snag, but finding some public interest organization willing to expend a rather small amount of money on an attorney really isn't that tough. I know a number of people who I suspect are in the bottom quarter, came straight from UG, and didn't have too much trouble getting something lined up with a public interest organization.

paul_m86 wrote:You're right. I could be making some bad assumptions here, possibly being skewed by the fact that probably more people do public interest work over 2L summer as plan B to biglaw than actually end up working in public interest after graduation.

So you don't know anybody at your school who was PI going into law school, struck out at OCI, and are now doing PI for at least 2L summer? Seems like I've run into a fair amount of those people here...


Wait, you've been talking about 2L summer this whole time? I didn't respond to your claims that it is soooooooo easy to get a PI job because I figured you were just uninformed about PI hiring in general. However, if you're just discussing 2L summer, that kind of changes things. PI and state government organizations will hire summer interns with low grades who couldn't find anything else because (1) they're usually understaffed and could use the extra help and (2) they, unlike law firms, don't have to pay their interns.

However, this is not how full time, post graduation hiring works because many of these places are under hiring freezes and just don't have the money to hire that many people. So, these jobs are incredibly difficult to get because the funding simply isn't there a lot of the time. To do this type of work, most of the PI/government students I know either need to wait until someone in the organization leaves or they need to find a different source of funding (like grants and fellowships). It's not easy, and it takes a lot of time, hard work, and dedication to get one of these jobs.

As for people who wanted to do PI, struck out at OCI, and are back doing PI, I don't really see what the problem is. Getting a PI or government job after graduation is hard, and it's very possible that someone who did everything right could end up unemployed. So it makes sense to apply for a job that pays a lot more money and offers more security. To me it would just make sense for these people to continue to try to do what they came to law school to do if they strike out.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:09 am

romothesavior wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:OP, if your real name is paul, i think just figured out who you are


Do you go to CCN? Probably do then. Eh, don't really care either way.


yes i do go to CCN

Just wanted to say this is funny.


sorta wanna email this thread to the law school but will refrain

ETA: i have an SA, so it's not about being bitter

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Flash
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby Flash » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:58 pm

Dude we're talking about lawyers. People who are actually smart, successful and hard working are subsidizing the entire profession.

keg411
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby keg411 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:21 pm

OP, I hope you get bad grades/strike out at OCI/get no-offered and then end up doing PI. It would be delicious irony.

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Rotor
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby Rotor » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:15 am

billyez wrote:
Rotor wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:But I don't think it's in doubt that people who are not hard-working or bad at law school tend to head toward public interest work, as a group. Again, just speaking in very general terms. Just like law review people as a group don't in general go for public interest jobs.

You have your last assertion backward. It's that PI folks tend not to go for law review. We've done several years of empirical study of who attempts to write on and this is a pretty clear conclusion. (Don't know what to make of grade-on schools though)


What empirical studies?

Internal annual studies for Calif. L. Rev. to evaluate ways to improve diversity, looking at every stage of the CLR write on process to determine where we could improve our results. Statistically, lower percentages of PI and URMs were signing up to write-on and they also completed packages at a lower rate, so it wasn't necessarily that those groups weren't getting selected, it's that they weren't even in the pool to be picked at the end of the day.

Sorry can't share the actual studies (FERPA issues, I think). But you can see the genesis of the research initiative in Amy DeVaudreuil, Silence at the California Law Review, 91 CALIF. L. REV. 1183 (2003) (reviewing ANDREA GUERRERO, SILENCE AT BOALT HALL: THE DISMANTLING OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION (2002)).

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:19 pm

Rotor wrote:Internal annual studies for Calif. L. Rev. to evaluate ways to improve diversity, looking at every stage of the CLR write on process to determine where we could improve our results. Statistically, lower percentages of PI and URMs were signing up to write-on and they also completed packages at a lower rate, so it wasn't necessarily that those groups weren't getting selected, it's that they weren't even in the pool to be picked at the end of the day.

Sorry can't share the actual studies (FERPA issues, I think). But you can see the genesis of the research initiative in Amy DeVaudreuil, Silence at the California Law Review, 91 CALIF. L. REV. 1183 (2003) (reviewing ANDREA GUERRERO, SILENCE AT BOALT HALL: THE DISMANTLING OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION (2002)).


Maybe that has to do with PI people (lower performing as a whole) knowing that their writing skills weren't strong enough to write onto law review, so they didn't even try?

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:21 pm

paul_m86 wrote:
Rotor wrote:Internal annual studies for Calif. L. Rev. to evaluate ways to improve diversity, looking at every stage of the CLR write on process to determine where we could improve our results. Statistically, lower percentages of PI and URMs were signing up to write-on and they also completed packages at a lower rate, so it wasn't necessarily that those groups weren't getting selected, it's that they weren't even in the pool to be picked at the end of the day.

Sorry can't share the actual studies (FERPA issues, I think). But you can see the genesis of the research initiative in Amy DeVaudreuil, Silence at the California Law Review, 91 CALIF. L. REV. 1183 (2003) (reviewing ANDREA GUERRERO, SILENCE AT BOALT HALL: THE DISMANTLING OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION (2002)).


Maybe that has to do with PI people (lower performing as a whole) knowing that their writing skills weren't strong enough to write onto law review, so they didn't even try?


lol you have got to be fucking kidding me

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paul_m86
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Re: Are successful/smart/hardworking students subsidizing others

Postby paul_m86 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:22 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
paul_m86 wrote:
Rotor wrote:Internal annual studies for Calif. L. Rev. to evaluate ways to improve diversity, looking at every stage of the CLR write on process to determine where we could improve our results. Statistically, lower percentages of PI and URMs were signing up to write-on and they also completed packages at a lower rate, so it wasn't necessarily that those groups weren't getting selected, it's that they weren't even in the pool to be picked at the end of the day.

Sorry can't share the actual studies (FERPA issues, I think). But you can see the genesis of the research initiative in Amy DeVaudreuil, Silence at the California Law Review, 91 CALIF. L. REV. 1183 (2003) (reviewing ANDREA GUERRERO, SILENCE AT BOALT HALL: THE DISMANTLING OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION (2002)).


Maybe that has to do with PI people (lower performing as a whole) knowing that their writing skills weren't strong enough to write onto law review, so they didn't even try?


lol you have got to be fucking kidding me


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