What DOES predict law school success?

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)

What is the best predictor of success (grades) in law school?

1. Undergraduate GPA
11
8%
2. LSAT score
47
33%
3. Work experience
8
6%
4. Amount of time spent studying
29
20%
5. Pure luck
17
12%
6. Something else
30
21%
 
Total votes: 142

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johansantana21
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby johansantana21 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:55 pm

dailygrind wrote:I wonder to what degree prior exposure to the law helps. I know at least 2 people here who come from lawyer families, and both absolutely obliterated 1L year. Although to some degree that could be an "I need to see if I can measure up to the family" motivation rather than a competitive advantage from better insight.


Isn't this pretty much effort?

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dailygrind
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby dailygrind » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:04 pm

The latter bit is effort. I was theorizing that the people who have prior exposure are more efficient from the get-go because they're more used to thinking like a lawyer.

keg411
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby keg411 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:17 pm

dailygrind wrote:The latter bit is effort. I was theorizing that the people who have prior exposure are more efficient from the get-go because they're more used to thinking like a lawyer.


dg, I've had some thoughts along those lines. My entire family immediate (mom, dad, sister) is/was in law and I pwnd 1L year. Also, watching my sister go through everything and talking to her about it certainly helped (I'm older, so I'm not used to going "second" in anything -- and it seriously makes a huge difference).

However, my main thoughts were more: good (organized) writer + ability to think quickly

niceopposum
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby niceopposum » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:22 am

keg411 wrote:good (organized) writer + ability to think quickly


so the lsat is predictive, but only if the writing section is part of the score

ahnhub
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby ahnhub » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:50 am

Saw this on a video once:

if you had a class of 100 and 25 scored 170 on LSAT and 25 scored 140 on LSAT, the breakdown on grades would go like this:

170 scorers: 12 top 25%, 6 top 50%, 4 bottom 50%, 3 bottom 25%
160 scorers: 8 top 25%, 7 top 50%, 6 bottom 50%, 4 bottom 25%
150 scorers: 4 top 25%, 6 top 50%, 7 bottom 50%, 8 bottom 25%
140 scorers: 3 top 25%, 4 top 50%, 6 bottom 50%, 12 bottom 25%


But the truth is almost everyone at Columbia is within four or five points of each other on the LSAT, so the correlation is much, much weaker.

So it would seem that a student at Columbia COULD theoretically put themselves at a pretty big advantage by going to a school where the median LSAT is much, much lower--like 10+ points lower. But obviously almost no one who got into Columbia would go to a school with a 155 median LSAT.

hopefulsplitter1
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby hopefulsplitter1 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:39 am

Also, 27% of the class is in the bottom 25


ahnhub wrote:Saw this on a video once:

if you had a class of 100 and 25 scored 170 on LSAT and 25 scored 140 on LSAT, the breakdown on grades would go like this:

170 scorers: 12 top 25%, 6 top 50%, 4 bottom 50%, 3 bottom 25%
160 scorers: 8 top 25%, 7 top 50%, 6 bottom 50%, 4 bottom 25%
150 scorers: 4 top 25%, 6 top 50%, 7 bottom 50%, 8 bottom 25%
140 scorers: 3 top 25%, 4 top 50%, 6 bottom 50%, 12 bottom 25%


But the truth is almost everyone at Columbia is within four or five points of each other on the LSAT, so the correlation is much, much weaker.

So it would seem that a student at Columbia COULD theoretically put themselves at a pretty big advantage by going to a school where the median LSAT is much, much lower--like 10+ points lower. But obviously almost no one who got into Columbia would go to a school with a 155 median LSAT.

keg411
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby keg411 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:27 pm

niceopposum wrote:
keg411 wrote:good (organized) writer + ability to think quickly


so the lsat is predictive, but only if the writing section is part of the score


No.

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MC Southstar
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby MC Southstar » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:28 pm

Being smart, obviously.

niceopposum
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby niceopposum » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:04 pm

keg411 wrote:
niceopposum wrote:
keg411 wrote:good (organized) writer + ability to think quickly


so the lsat is predictive, but only if the writing section is part of the score


No.


[self] contradictions are dumb

edit: ambiguous

our arguments are equivalent, negating my statement necessarily negates your own.
Last edited by niceopposum on Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:07 pm

niceopposum wrote:
keg411 wrote:
niceopposum wrote:
keg411 wrote:good (organized) writer + ability to think quickly


so the lsat is predictive, but only if the writing section is part of the score


No.


contradictions are dumb

good one bro :roll:

niceopposum
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby niceopposum » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:29 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:
niceopposum wrote:contradictions are dumb

good one bro :roll:


thanks, you're very helpful, i didn't realize that was ambiguous

keg411
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby keg411 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:50 pm

I got A's in lawl skool and finished at the top of my class 1L year, so I actually have a damn good idea of what it takes to be successful. And it's not just "the LSAT if the writing section were scored". :roll: :roll: :roll:

niceopposum
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby niceopposum » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:00 pm

keg411 wrote:I got A's in lawl skool and finished at the top of my class 1L year, so I actually have a damn good idea of what it takes to be successful. And it's not just "the LSAT if the writing section were scored". :roll: :roll: :roll:


clearly, that's why i agree with you. i merely stated that the abilities you cited may well be what the lsat tests for. i wasn't trying to dispute your claim.
Last edited by niceopposum on Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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johansantana21
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby johansantana21 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:01 pm

keg411 wrote:I got A's in lawl skool and finished at the top of my class 1L year, so I actually have a damn good idea of what it takes to be successful. And it's not just "the LSAT if the writing section were scored". :roll: :roll: :roll:


Mind enlightening us?

005618502
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby 005618502 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 pm

shit, just took a typing test im at 49 words per minute. But I have to look at the keys and the words they were giving were rediculous.

Renzo
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby Renzo » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:31 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:shit, just took a typing test im at 49 words per minute. But I have to look at the keys and the words they were giving were rediculous.


You need to learn to type. It's ok, I learned to touch-type as an adult also, but the time is now.

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bport hopeful
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby bport hopeful » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:35 pm

I havent read this thread, and this is purely anecdotal, but my LSAT is prolly something like 95th percentile at my school, and Im almost positive ill be in the bottom half.

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Mick Haller
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:39 pm

kaiser wrote:Ability to perform well under pressure, organized and logical/analytical mindset, good writing skills and ability to convey your logical/analytical thoughts quickly and clearly, level of preparation for the exam (i.e. practice exams taken, thorough understanding of exactly what the professor wants, etc.)

All of the above would correlate with exam success. There is no tangible measure (i.e. GPA or LSAT) that evidences any of the above. I know tons of people with strong LSAT's who bombed law school exams, and I know people who did poorly on the LSAT and killed it on the law school exams. The skills are very different, and there is no way to predict law school success.


agree with kaiser

keg411
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby keg411 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:30 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
keg411 wrote:I got A's in lawl skool and finished at the top of my class 1L year, so I actually have a damn good idea of what it takes to be successful. And it's not just "the LSAT if the writing section were scored". :roll: :roll: :roll:


Mind enlightening us?


See kaiser's answer.

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dailygrind
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby dailygrind » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:46 pm

Renzo wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:shit, just took a typing test im at 49 words per minute. But I have to look at the keys and the words they were giving were rediculous.


You need to learn to type. It's ok, I learned to touch-type as an adult also, but the time is now.


While I think there's something to the idea that exam length does not strongly correlate with grade (my favorite 1L professor liked to describe many of the best exams as laserlike in their focus), I have to strongly +1 this.

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beach_terror
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby beach_terror » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:59 pm

dailygrind wrote:
Renzo wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:shit, just took a typing test im at 49 words per minute. But I have to look at the keys and the words they were giving were rediculous.


You need to learn to type. It's ok, I learned to touch-type as an adult also, but the time is now.


While I think there's something to the idea that exam length does not strongly correlate with grade (my favorite 1L professor liked to describe many of the best exams as laserlike in their focus), I have to strongly +1 this.

Being able to type quickly and efficiently is an important life skill in general.

Renzo
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby Renzo » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:28 pm

IBTB?

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quiver
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby quiver » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:00 pm

beach_terror wrote:
dailygrind wrote:
Renzo wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:shit, just took a typing test im at 49 words per minute. But I have to look at the keys and the words they were giving were rediculous.


You need to learn to type. It's ok, I learned to touch-type as an adult also, but the time is now.


While I think there's something to the idea that exam length does not strongly correlate with grade (my favorite 1L professor liked to describe many of the best exams as laserlike in their focus), I have to strongly +1 this.

Being able to type quickly and efficiently is an important life skill in general.
While I agree that typing speed can help (and is a good skill to have anyway), it's only loosely correlated with grades IMO. I only type about 45-55 WPM and I did just fine 1L.

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vanwinkle
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:12 pm

quiver wrote:While I agree that typing speed can help (and is a good skill to have anyway), it's only loosely correlated with grades IMO. I only type about 45-55 WPM and I did just fine 1L.

The problem is that nothing is strongly correlated with individual law school success. People keep looking for one single something that can reliably tell them whether they'll be able to do well in law school, and that thing doesn't really exist.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: What DOES predict law school success?

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:13 pm

quiver wrote:While I agree that typing speed can help (and is a good skill to have anyway), it's only loosely correlated with grades IMO. I only type about 45-55 WPM and I did just fine 1L.

so I'm NOT completely fucked at 55 WPM?




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