But seriously... Why Harvard? Forum

[rgndvo]

This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.

[vincanity1]

This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.

1. I think you've got this whole burden of proof thing backwards
2. It's better at the very least because employers generally consider it to be better

[rgndvo]

The burden of proof is not on me, because I am neither affirming nor denying that Harvard is "teh best." I am simply agnostic on the matter, because no credible evidence has been offered either way.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

The burden of proof is not on me, because I am neither affirming nor denying that Harvard is "teh best." I am simply agnostic on the matter, because no credible evidence has been offered either way.

If you compare top 5% at Harvard with top 5% at GULC, there may be very similar opportunities for both. Where Harvard shines is where you compare bottom quarter at Harvard with bottom quarter at GULC. The former still has a very good shot at biglaw. The latter might be in big trouble when it comes to biglaw.

See also: Clerkships, more prestigious government jobs, academia, etc.

[Na_Swatch]

Harvard's resources are definitely top notch in a wide range of things... not the least being financial aid. So with the completely need based financial aid here I'm already getting about 60-75% of the scholarship I was offered at a T10 school.

It's not always a black and white, "I'm giving up this huge scholarship to go to H and pay 210k!"

[PDaddy]

This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard? My suspicion is...sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.

I agree with you. The Harvard as baddest beast argument has a life of its own, one that started a long-long time ago. Now it may be true. I saw a wild post about this when I was perusing threads from a few years ago.

[lightbulb1986]

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[lightbulb1986]

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[rgndvo]

This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard? My suspicion is...sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.

I agree with you. The Harvard as baddest beast argument has a life of its own, one that started a long-long time ago. Now it may be true. I saw a wild post about this when I was perusing threads from a few years ago.

No one appears to offer any evidence for the contention that Harvard is "above and beyond" schools like Chicago or Northwestern or Michigan, in terms of practical benefits. On the other hand, it is fantastically easy to demonstrate the T-14's superiority over the T-30 (and that of the T-30 over the T 100).

Most of the time the "argument" appears to be: Harvard is the best because Harvard is -- and always has been! -- the best. My, my: does Harvard really average a 173 LSAT?

[T14]

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings

[CanadianWolf]

I cannot answer your question as to whether or not Harvard Law "really averages a 173 LSAT", but Harvard has reported a median 173 LSAT.

[kwais]

agnostic my ass, you guys seem pretty set on this and I imagine no data will sway you. great, so you don't like Harvard.

[DoubleChecks]

This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.

Are you serious? At first I thought this was about "is HLS better than SLS or YLS or CCN w/ $$" -- you know, something worth discussing. How has this not already been settled? Jobs. That is where it is most noticeable/tangible. Okay sure, if you're in at Gtown or something w/ full scholly, you can definitely consider that over HLS -- but the fact of the matter is, it would take a near-full scholly imo to make that a viable choice. A below median student here can score V10 w/ easy (or rather it'd come down to interviewing skills)...or certainly noticeably easier than a below median student at Gtown, Cornell, Michigan, etc. Have you not been on TLS? lol all the employment threads are data that != intuition (and some even post the OCS released numbers).

However, OP, you sort of sound like a douche, so, if my comment remains unconvincing...then you've got me! HLS sucks -- don't come here.

[20121109]

This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.

Are you serious? At first I thought this was about "is HLS better than SLS or YLS or CCN w/ $$" -- you know, something worth discussing. How has this not already been settled? Jobs. That is where it is most noticeable/tangible. Okay sure, if you're in at Gtown or something w/ full scholly, you can definitely consider that over HLS -- but the fact of the matter is, it would take a near-full scholly imo to make that a viable choice. A below median student here can score V10 w/ easy (or rather it'd come down to interviewing skills)...or certainly noticeably easier than a below median student at Gtown, Cornell, Michigan, etc. Have you not been on TLS? lol all the employment threads are data that != intuition (and some even post the OCS released numbers).

However, OP, you sort of sound like a douche, so, if my comment remains unconvincing...then you've got me! HLS sucks -- don't come here.

Troof.

LPs get 160gs....

[ResolutePear]

Why buy Payless when you can buy Nike..?

[rgndvo]

All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.

[daydreamer]

lol this has to be a troll...

[TheFriendlyBarber]

All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.

What is it to you, Monsieur Petite Verge?

[kwais]

All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.

One of the five worst arguments I've ever encountered. well done.

[DoubleChecks]

All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.

Uh oh, sounds like you're getting into the "if I have x LSAT and GPA, I must be y rank at certain schools." It is pretty accepted on these boards that law school is more random than people think, and thus no, going to a lower ranked school would not necessarily mean higher class rank.

And now I am just a bit confused (and by that, I mean your whole argument is confusing as hell)...you're saying HLS kids are smarter than the rest of the T14, that law firm employers acknowledge this, but yet don't feel as if there's increased opportunity for jobs at HLS at all? What?

lol reading all your posts in this thread now, I am increasingly convinced you are just trolling. So well done sir, you had me for a little bit.

[Kurst]

[Curious1]

All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.

LSAT can translate into rank at a law school??? what???

Also...srsly? Namedropping is used for purposes other than vanity. How about when you and the hiring partner can reminisce about days studying in Langdell. Even IF people think Harvard is the best for no other reason than they think it is, that bias exists in hiring too. So two students, one Gtown and one Harvard, same amount of talent, grades, whatever, who do you think is going to get the job? The recruiter/hiring partner is going to say, "oh, this kid went to Harvard, let's take him over the other guy." So the bias is unfounded and self-reinforcing, but that's exactly why it matters.

Also, see endowment argument. And let's not forget the quality of professors and alumni coming out of the school...supreme court justices? presidents? Anyway doesn't look like you can get in anyway so eat your sour grapes I guess. I don't know why I'm defending Harvard...I went to the other one.

[rgndvo]

All I know is that Harvard Law School reported a private starting salary of 155k in 2008, whereas Georgetown claimed a starting salary of 160k in the 2010 TLS page. (see below)
Obviously, I am not contending that Georgetown has better job opportunities than Harvard; inflation alone would account for this difference. But I am genuinely skeptical as to whether attending HLS imparts much of an advantage on a given student.

Also, pineapple dude, you have correllation confused with causality. Harvard has a smarter student body, no question; but the question is whether a student is actually made more succesful by virtue of attending HLS (as opposed to another T14). I am skeptical of this, and the hysterical (but factless) responses to this skepticism have only made it more acute.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/index.html
http://www.top-law-schools.com/georgeto ... enter.html

[rgndvo]

All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.

LSAT can translate into rank at a law school??? what???

Also...srsly? Namedropping is used for purposes other than vanity. How about when you and the hiring partner can reminisce about days studying in Langdell. Even IF people think Harvard is the best for no other reason than they think it is, that bias exists in hiring too. So two students, one Gtown and one Harvard, same amount of talent, grades, whatever, who do you think is going to get the job? The recruiter/hiring partner is going to say, "oh, this kid went to Harvard, let's take him over the other guy." So the bias is unfounded and self-reinforcing, but that's exactly why it matters.

Also, see endowment argument. And let's not forget the quality of professors and alumni coming out of the school...supreme court justices? presidents? Anyway doesn't look like you can get in anyway so eat your sour grapes I guess. I don't know why I'm defending Harvard...I went to the other one.

Re- sour grapes. I am an AA male who almost certainly hit the 170's (I would predict 173/174, after PT-ing in the high 170's) in Oct, after 167 in June. I had my eye set on H initiially, but have since grown skeptical, because no one can specifically describe why it is worth foregoing a massive scholarhsip.

[TheFriendlyBarber]

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