But seriously... Why Harvard?

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rgndvo
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But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby rgndvo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:21 am

This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.

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vincanity1
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby vincanity1 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:30 am

rgndvo wrote:This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.


1. I think you've got this whole burden of proof thing backwards
2. It's better at the very least because employers generally consider it to be better

rgndvo
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby rgndvo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:53 am

The burden of proof is not on me, because I am neither affirming nor denying that Harvard is "teh best." I am simply agnostic on the matter, because no credible evidence has been offered either way.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:05 am

rgndvo wrote:The burden of proof is not on me, because I am neither affirming nor denying that Harvard is "teh best." I am simply agnostic on the matter, because no credible evidence has been offered either way.


If you compare top 5% at Harvard with top 5% at GULC, there may be very similar opportunities for both. Where Harvard shines is where you compare bottom quarter at Harvard with bottom quarter at GULC. The former still has a very good shot at biglaw. The latter might be in big trouble when it comes to biglaw.

See also: Clerkships, more prestigious government jobs, academia, etc.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby Na_Swatch » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:32 am

Harvard's resources are definitely top notch in a wide range of things... not the least being financial aid. So with the completely need based financial aid here I'm already getting about 60-75% of the scholarship I was offered at a T10 school.

It's not always a black and white, "I'm giving up this huge scholarship to go to H and pay 210k!"

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PDaddy
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby PDaddy » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:38 am

rgndvo wrote:This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard? My suspicion is...sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.


I agree with you. The Harvard as baddest beast argument has a life of its own, one that started a long-long time ago. Now it may be true. I saw a wild post about this when I was perusing threads from a few years ago.

lightbulb1986
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby lightbulb1986 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:41 am

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Last edited by lightbulb1986 on Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

lightbulb1986
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby lightbulb1986 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:45 am

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Last edited by lightbulb1986 on Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

rgndvo
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby rgndvo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:05 am

PDaddy wrote:
rgndvo wrote:This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard? My suspicion is...sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.


I agree with you. The Harvard as baddest beast argument has a life of its own, one that started a long-long time ago. Now it may be true. I saw a wild post about this when I was perusing threads from a few years ago.


No one appears to offer any evidence for the contention that Harvard is "above and beyond" schools like Chicago or Northwestern or Michigan, in terms of practical benefits. On the other hand, it is fantastically easy to demonstrate the T-14's superiority over the T-30 (and that of the T-30 over the T 100).

Most of the time the "argument" appears to be: Harvard is the best because Harvard is -- and always has been! -- the best. My, my: does Harvard really average a 173 LSAT? :P

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T14
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby T14 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:37 am


CanadianWolf
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:39 am

I cannot answer your question as to whether or not Harvard Law "really averages a 173 LSAT", but Harvard has reported a median 173 LSAT.

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kwais
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby kwais » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:45 am

agnostic my ass, you guys seem pretty set on this and I imagine no data will sway you. great, so you don't like Harvard.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:52 am

rgndvo wrote:This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.


Are you serious? At first I thought this was about "is HLS better than SLS or YLS or CCN w/ $$" -- you know, something worth discussing. How has this not already been settled? Jobs. That is where it is most noticeable/tangible. Okay sure, if you're in at Gtown or something w/ full scholly, you can definitely consider that over HLS -- but the fact of the matter is, it would take a near-full scholly imo to make that a viable choice. A below median student here can score V10 w/ easy (or rather it'd come down to interviewing skills)...or certainly noticeably easier than a below median student at Gtown, Cornell, Michigan, etc. Have you not been on TLS? lol all the employment threads are data that != intuition (and some even post the OCS released numbers).

However, OP, you sort of sound like a douche, so, if my comment remains unconvincing...then you've got me! HLS sucks -- don't come here.

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20121109
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby 20121109 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:56 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
rgndvo wrote:This isn't exactly a novel question, and I think the fact that it hasn't been satisfactorily answered illuminates the necessity of posing it again.

Why Harvard?

I would like attendees of HLS to specifically, concretely (i.e. invoke data rather than "intuition") explain why HLS is so much better than Georgetown, Cornell, Michigan, or other T-14's. There doesn't appear to be any data supporting the notion of bigger salaries. My suspicion is that the desire to sacrifice T-14 scholarships and go to H is born in sheer vanity, and a desire to "name-drop." Prove me wrong, HLS-ers.


Are you serious? At first I thought this was about "is HLS better than SLS or YLS or CCN w/ $$" -- you know, something worth discussing. How has this not already been settled? Jobs. That is where it is most noticeable/tangible. Okay sure, if you're in at Gtown or something w/ full scholly, you can definitely consider that over HLS -- but the fact of the matter is, it would take a near-full scholly imo to make that a viable choice. A below median student here can score V10 w/ easy (or rather it'd come down to interviewing skills)...or certainly noticeably easier than a below median student at Gtown, Cornell, Michigan, etc. Have you not been on TLS? lol all the employment threads are data that != intuition (and some even post the OCS released numbers).

However, OP, you sort of sound like a douche, so, if my comment remains unconvincing...then you've got me! HLS sucks -- don't come here.


Troof.

LPs get 160gs....

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ResolutePear
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:01 am

Why buy Payless when you can buy Nike..?

rgndvo
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby rgndvo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:26 pm

All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.

daydreamer
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby daydreamer » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:40 pm

lol this has to be a troll...

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:41 pm

rgndvo wrote:All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.


What is it to you, Monsieur Petite Verge?

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kwais
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby kwais » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:44 pm

rgndvo wrote:All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.


One of the five worst arguments I've ever encountered. well done.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:47 pm

rgndvo wrote:All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.


Uh oh, sounds like you're getting into the "if I have x LSAT and GPA, I must be y rank at certain schools." It is pretty accepted on these boards that law school is more random than people think, and thus no, going to a lower ranked school would not necessarily mean higher class rank.

And now I am just a bit confused (and by that, I mean your whole argument is confusing as hell)...you're saying HLS kids are smarter than the rest of the T14, that law firm employers acknowledge this, but yet don't feel as if there's increased opportunity for jobs at HLS at all? What?

lol reading all your posts in this thread now, I am increasingly convinced you are just trolling. So well done sir, you had me for a little bit.

Kurst
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby Kurst » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:54 pm

Image

Curious1
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby Curious1 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:07 pm

rgndvo wrote:All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.


LSAT can translate into rank at a law school??? what???

Also...srsly? Namedropping is used for purposes other than vanity. How about when you and the hiring partner can reminisce about days studying in Langdell. Even IF people think Harvard is the best for no other reason than they think it is, that bias exists in hiring too. So two students, one Gtown and one Harvard, same amount of talent, grades, whatever, who do you think is going to get the job? The recruiter/hiring partner is going to say, "oh, this kid went to Harvard, let's take him over the other guy." So the bias is unfounded and self-reinforcing, but that's exactly why it matters.

Also, see endowment argument. And let's not forget the quality of professors and alumni coming out of the school...supreme court justices? presidents? Anyway doesn't look like you can get in anyway so eat your sour grapes I guess. I don't know why I'm defending Harvard...I went to the other one.

rgndvo
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby rgndvo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:42 pm

All I know is that Harvard Law School reported a private starting salary of 155k in 2008, whereas Georgetown claimed a starting salary of 160k in the 2010 TLS page. (see below)
Obviously, I am not contending that Georgetown has better job opportunities than Harvard; inflation alone would account for this difference. But I am genuinely skeptical as to whether attending HLS imparts much of an advantage on a given student.

Also, pineapple dude, you have correllation confused with causality. Harvard has a smarter student body, no question; but the question is whether a student is actually made more succesful by virtue of attending HLS (as opposed to another T14). I am skeptical of this, and the hysterical (but factless) responses to this skepticism have only made it more acute.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/index.html
http://www.top-law-schools.com/georgeto ... enter.html

rgndvo
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby rgndvo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:51 pm

Curious1 wrote:
rgndvo wrote:All I see thus far are appeals to anecdote. The one person who invoked a link, rather than an ad hominem attack, proved little. Harvard is obviously "better" than the rest of the t-14 in some ways (higher LSAT average, for example), and law firms obviously acknowledge this. What I truly doubt is whether students of similar talent (say, a 173 LSAT) at Georgetown and Harvard are really much better off at Harvard? Since Harvard students are considerably smarter than the rest of the T-14, one would expect that the bottom 25% would have similar prospects to the top 25% at M or G or Chicago or Cornell. That doesn't attest to increased opportunity at H at all. What makes me skeptical is the lack of data showing that the average salary at Harvard is appreciably higher than that of Georgetown (or Mich/Cornell/UVA).

And while I am merely agnostic as to whether Harvard is better than other T-14's in a substantive sense, I am sold on the fact that many people (particularly men who have trouble getting laid) choose Harvard strictly for vanity, and purposes of name-dropping.


LSAT can translate into rank at a law school??? what???

Also...srsly? Namedropping is used for purposes other than vanity. How about when you and the hiring partner can reminisce about days studying in Langdell. Even IF people think Harvard is the best for no other reason than they think it is, that bias exists in hiring too. So two students, one Gtown and one Harvard, same amount of talent, grades, whatever, who do you think is going to get the job? The recruiter/hiring partner is going to say, "oh, this kid went to Harvard, let's take him over the other guy." So the bias is unfounded and self-reinforcing, but that's exactly why it matters.

Also, see endowment argument. And let's not forget the quality of professors and alumni coming out of the school...supreme court justices? presidents? Anyway doesn't look like you can get in anyway so eat your sour grapes I guess. I don't know why I'm defending Harvard...I went to the other one.


Re- sour grapes. I am an AA male who almost certainly hit the 170's (I would predict 173/174, after PT-ing in the high 170's) in Oct, after 167 in June. I had my eye set on H initiially, but have since grown skeptical, because no one can specifically describe why it is worth foregoing a massive scholarhsip.

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: But seriously... Why Harvard?

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:00 pm

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