Average Salary coming out of Law School

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SA1928
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby SA1928 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:40 pm

Miami781 wrote:My parents are pretty wealthy and probably will pay for 85 percent of my law school, with that said I love my parents and feel terrible doing this so want to make sure I can pay them back one day.

Also want to go to the best school possible,

I also want to make a feed relating to a comment a professor made on friday that "less people can afford law school thus it is now easier to get into a T14" however I fear the response of the fellow TLS forum members


Sorry - my comments were due to the fact that I thought you meant you were taking 200K in debt meaning loans, not debt as in debt to your parents. I thought you meant you were going to graduate undergrad and have to start paying back 200k in loans that were accruing interest or graduate and go straight to law school only to take out another 200k, ultimately ending up with 400k in just the principal + origination fees + interest accrued and accruing...which even making 160K straight out of law school would be a very frightening level of debt to face!

haha at your professor's comment...that's a pretty bold statement! I think you could also look at it from a different perspective, in that since law school is so expensive, most people are trying to maximize their potential future earnings by applying to the best school they can, as opposed to say a local school that once may have landed them a decent paying job, but no longer has promising employment stats in the future. I would imagine in this situation it may be more difficult to get into a T14. Just looking at it from a different perspective...no idea honestly whether it is easier or more difficult now. Always speculation...

Miami781
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Miami781 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:36 am

On another note also, does it matter where you go to undergrad then if going to an expensive school like mine is not worth 200k

Do laws schools care if I go to University of Tampa and party all 4 years and get a 3.5 or go to my strict university now and do hw 5 hours a night to get a 3.4

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Ernert
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Ernert » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:46 am

Miami781 wrote:On another note also, does it matter where you go to undergrad then if going to an expensive school like mine is not worth 200k

Do laws schools care if I go to University of Tampa and party all 4 years and get a 3.5 or go to my strict university now and do hw 5 hours a night to get a 3.4


they'd prefer the 3.5

kaiser
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby kaiser » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:52 am

Miami781 wrote:On another note also, does it matter where you go to undergrad then if going to an expensive school like mine is not worth 200k

Do laws schools care if I go to University of Tampa and party all 4 years and get a 3.5 or go to my strict university now and do hw 5 hours a night to get a 3.4


Law schools place very little weight on your undergrad institution. Sure, if you went to Harvard or MIT, you may get the nod over someone with similar numbers. But in the vast majority of cases, undergrads are fungible, and all they care about is your GPA figure. We were debating earlier what situations/goals would justify spending such a huge amount on an undergrad degree. But no one denies that law school is NOT one of those situations. If your goal all along was law school, then most of that was wasted $$. I can tell you from experience that my biggest regret was choosing not to to to my local public school, where I could have attended for free, rather than going away to some expensive private school that was unnecessarily expensive and led to a much higher debt load in law school (since my parents had a certain amount set aside to help me with schooling, and it all went to undergrad, whereas it would have almost all gone to law school had I chosen a less expensive undergrad).

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Grizz
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:15 pm

3v3ryth1ng wrote:
Miami781 wrote:exactly, I want to be a lawyer because it is what I want to do, and am passionate about, however it is unreasonable for me to be in 200k debt from undergrad then another 200k in debt from law school, then make 45k a year

It would take me 9 years to pay back just my schooling let alone bills and such


It would almost certainly take you longer than 9 years to pay that kind of debt back at 45K a year. But the real truth is (and this is going to piss a lot of people off) there's no replacement for being competent, effective, and cutthroat. There are some very smart people who collect degrees; they think a J.D. from a law school entitles them to something. It doesn't. Furthermore, being smart and qualified doesn't mean you're going to be good at whatever it is you went to school for.

I'm a teacher. I got hired in this recession, in a state where teacher jobs have been cut continually for the last 6 years or so. Many of the kids from my credential programs ended up without jobs. I saw them complaining on Facebook about it. Some of them just gave up. I had to bust my ass making sure that I was not only knowledgeable and talented, but that I exuded that knowledge and talent in my interviews. I also worked very hard to have as many interviews as possible, and I thought "outside the box" to apply to places my peers weren't talking about.

Now I'm the department chair at my school. I did all the hiring/interviews for the English department last summer. There were a TON of applicants from great colleges. MA's and EDd's, from Stanford, Columbia, UCLA, Berkeley, USC (you only need a BA and a credential to be qualified for this job)- I quickly learned that these meant NOTHING. I definitely learned a lot from LORS, their cover letters, and the interview itself. I hired the people I thought would do the best job based on my professional experience. Somewhere, some Stanford MA graduate is complaining that his degree "didn't get me shit."

There's no denying that having a T14 degree is correlated with higher salaries. That's because those schools ONLY select the (supposedly) most hard-working, professional, intelligent, and talented students. That's likely the real reason employment stats look so favorable for them. Yes, some firms only hire from top schools BUT they're not the only firms offering jobs with that kind of salary. You can get the 160K job if you are competent, effective, and cutthroat. The cynical people talking about 45K post-J.D. employment are not worth listening to. They will probably interpret what I'm saying as suggesting they're not competent, effective, or cutthroat. That may be exactly what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is don't go to a great law school thinking it guarantees you a good job, and don't go to a mid-tier law school thinking it shuts you out of any job opportunities. And I think we can all agree that Tier 4 sucks; don't do it. That is all!

Legal hiring does not work like whatever you were doing. HTH.

HOPEFORCHANGE
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby HOPEFORCHANGE » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:44 pm

Bloomberg claims that the average starting salary for private practice is ~$100k a year with a 90% or so employment rate after nine months for all law school graduates. Believe it or not. The numbers could still be skewed and true. E.g. 90% are employed somewhere and 5% are employed in private law practice, etc. I don't know, just don't go to Cooley I guess or if you don't want to be a lawyer for the sake of being a lawyer. Meaning: it isn't the golden ticket anymore. I don't regret my decision. If I fail after I graduate, I will join the Peace Corps or go live in Mexico and pay on the IBR scale. But I don't care. I want to be a lawyer and have no other choice given my circumstances (which I am not disclosing here) but to be in law school. Well, it's the best choice anyway and I enjoy law school. Except the busy weeks.

BTW, in the response to a previous statement, I don't think anyone except general managers make $30k at McDonald's.

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nealric
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby nealric » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:17 am

BTW, in the response to a previous statement, I don't think anyone except general managers make $30k at McDonald's.


No, McDonald's general managers can make quite a bit more than 30k. Some law school grads not so much.

Bloomberg claims that the average starting salary for private practice is ~$100k


Those numbers are horse poop. Based off extremely small and non-representative samples.

with a 90% or so employment rate after nine months for all law school graduates.


Assuming that is true, consider that the unemployment rate among the general population is 9.1%. So on average, new law school grads are more likely to be unemployed than the general population.

HOPEFORCHANGE
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby HOPEFORCHANGE » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:04 am

You like to argue just for the sense of arguing, don't you? Reread.

OK, how about this - return with sources. Reliable sources that provide salaries of both McDonald's general managers (who I don't dispute make more than 30k) and all other McDonald's employees below that level who don't work for corporate. Then also please provide reliable evidence that law graduates are more likely to be unemployed and their real average starting salary. Oh, and also provide evidence that the ABA, law schools, and Bloomberg fudge numbers in conspiracy with eachother.

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rayiner
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby rayiner » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:17 am

HOPEFORCHANGE wrote:You like to argue just for the sense of arguing, don't you? Reread.

OK, how about this - return with sources. Reliable sources that provide salaries of both McDonald's general managers (who I don't dispute make more than 30k) and all other McDonald's employees below that level who don't work for corporate. Then also please provide reliable evidence that law graduates are more likely to be unemployed and their real average starting salary. Oh, and also provide evidence that the ABA, law schools, and Bloomberg fudge numbers in conspiracy with eachother.


http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/nalp-con ... 0-is-lost/

Re: average starting salary-computing one is a fruitless exercise. The salaries in law are bimodal. If three people graduate, two jobless and one making 160k, is 53k a meaningful average starting salary?

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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby lawbanshee » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:30 am

Doc review rates in NYC are currently stuck at $30 flat, no time & a half for overtime:

--LinkRemoved--

In 2nd rate TTT cities like Philly the rates are substnatially less, dipping as low as $18 an hour:

--LinkRemoved--

These are basically the only non-Biglaw "employment" options in the current economy, unless your dad, mom, or uncle is a hiring partner at a mid-sized firm. State/local governments are laying off lawyers by the truckload and public interest gigs have seen drastic budget cuts and want Biglaw quality grades/schools anyway, so forget about that nonsense right this instant.

Remember too that these temp gigs have no health insurance, paid time off, or paid sick days. You'll also pay your own bar dues, CLE class fees, and other shakedowns. Good luck at OCI kids. Otherwise, we'll see you all out here in templand come 2014. Click, click, code, code, it's off to doc review we go.........

HTH

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nealric
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby nealric » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:41 pm

You like to argue just for the sense of arguing, don't you? Reread.


No, but I occasionally feel the need to set 0L's and/or law students straight.

Oh, and also provide evidence that the ABA, law schools, and Bloomberg fudge numbers in conspiracy with eachother.


It's not a conspiracy at all. It's a flaw with how those numbers are generated. They send out a survey to recent grads. Guess who 1) is easy to track down and 2) is more likely to respond? Those who are employed with good salaries. Biglaw associates are listed on firm websites with bios, doc reviewers are largely anonymous.

But there are ways to check at least some of the numbers. For example, the National Law Journal publishes every year a listing of the number of graduates from each school from a given year working at NLJ 250. There is a vanishingly small number of non- NLJ 250 firms that pay 160k per year to first year associates. Don't believe me? Try to find one. I can think of one or two high-end boutiques that might take 1-2 new grads a year. Schools like New York Law School have claimed in recent years, for example, "median" private sector starting salary of $160k. Yet the NLJ numbers show less than 5% of NYLS graduates getting a job at a NLJ 250 firm. Clearly, one of those sources is wrong. It is likely not the NLJ, as it's pretty easy to verify who is employed at NLJ 250 firms as almost all of them publicly post attorney bios.

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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby lawbanshee » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:29 am

It would almost certainly take you longer than 9 years to pay that kind of debt back at 45K a year. But the real truth is (and this is going to piss a lot of people off) there's no replacement for being competent, effective, and cutthroat. There are some very smart people who collect degrees; they think a J.D. from a law school entitles them to something. It doesn't. Furthermore, being smart and qualified doesn't mean you're going to be good at whatever it is you went to school for.

I'm a teacher. I got hired in this recession, in a state where teacher jobs have been cut continually for the last 6 years or so. Many of the kids from my credential programs ended up without jobs. I saw them complaining on Facebook about it. Some of them just gave up. I had to bust my ass making sure that I was not only knowledgeable and talented, but that I exuded that knowledge and talent in my interviews. I also worked very hard to have as many interviews as possible, and I thought "outside the box" to apply to places my peers weren't talking about.

Now I'm the department chair at my school. I did all the hiring/interviews for the English department last summer. There were a TON of applicants from great colleges. MA's and EDd's, from Stanford, Columbia, UCLA, Berkeley, USC (you only need a BA and a credential to be qualified for this job)- I quickly learned that these meant NOTHING. I definitely learned a lot from LORS, their cover letters, and the interview itself. I hired the people I thought would do the best job based on my professional experience. Somewhere, some Stanford MA graduate is complaining that his degree "didn't get me shit."

There's no denying that having a T14 degree is correlated with higher salaries. That's because those schools ONLY select the (supposedly) most hard-working, professional, intelligent, and talented students. That's likely the real reason employment stats look so favorable for them. Yes, some firms only hire from top schools BUT they're not the only firms offering jobs with that kind of salary. You can get the 160K job if you are competent, effective, and cutthroat. The cynical people talking about 45K post-J.D. employment are not worth listening to. They will probably interpret what I'm saying as suggesting they're not competent, effective, or cutthroat. That may be exactly what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is don't go to a great law school thinking it guarantees you a good job, and don't go to a mid-tier law school thinking it shuts you out of any job opportunities. And I think we can all agree that Tier 4 sucks; don't do it. That is all!


This is hilarious! Dood, law is def. not an "outside the box" industry. You either have the grades/school to get Biglaw via OCI, or you likely end up unemployed, working in doc review hell, or slaving away in shitlaw for 45 K.

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:10 am

lawbanshee wrote:
It would almost certainly take you longer than 9 years to pay that kind of debt back at 45K a year. But the real truth is (and this is going to piss a lot of people off) there's no replacement for being competent, effective, and cutthroat. There are some very smart people who collect degrees; they think a J.D. from a law school entitles them to something. It doesn't. Furthermore, being smart and qualified doesn't mean you're going to be good at whatever it is you went to school for.

I'm a teacher. I got hired in this recession, in a state where teacher jobs have been cut continually for the last 6 years or so. Many of the kids from my credential programs ended up without jobs. I saw them complaining on Facebook about it. Some of them just gave up. I had to bust my ass making sure that I was not only knowledgeable and talented, but that I exuded that knowledge and talent in my interviews. I also worked very hard to have as many interviews as possible, and I thought "outside the box" to apply to places my peers weren't talking about.

Now I'm the department chair at my school. I did all the hiring/interviews for the English department last summer. There were a TON of applicants from great colleges. MA's and EDd's, from Stanford, Columbia, UCLA, Berkeley, USC (you only need a BA and a credential to be qualified for this job)- I quickly learned that these meant NOTHING. I definitely learned a lot from LORS, their cover letters, and the interview itself. I hired the people I thought would do the best job based on my professional experience. Somewhere, some Stanford MA graduate is complaining that his degree "didn't get me shit."

There's no denying that having a T14 degree is correlated with higher salaries. That's because those schools ONLY select the (supposedly) most hard-working, professional, intelligent, and talented students. That's likely the real reason employment stats look so favorable for them. Yes, some firms only hire from top schools BUT they're not the only firms offering jobs with that kind of salary. You can get the 160K job if you are competent, effective, and cutthroat. The cynical people talking about 45K post-J.D. employment are not worth listening to. They will probably interpret what I'm saying as suggesting they're not competent, effective, or cutthroat. That may be exactly what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is don't go to a great law school thinking it guarantees you a good job, and don't go to a mid-tier law school thinking it shuts you out of any job opportunities. And I think we can all agree that Tier 4 sucks; don't do it. That is all!


This is hilarious! Dood, law is def. not an "outside the box" industry. You either have the grades/school to get Biglaw via OCI, or you likely end up unemployed, working in doc review hell, or slaving away in shitlaw for 45 K.


Are you serious? For a board that's supposed to attract top law students, there sure are a ton of morons on here. That's so typical of people who go through 7 years of school without ever having to actually do anything. Apparently a lot of lawyers can't find jobs, which happens to be the case in a lot of industries, largely for the same reasons. Maybe you could take a little advice from someone who actually got hired, and has done some hiring.

1) Good grades and schools won't hurt you, but do you think you're entitled to a job because you read a book? You think that being "in the box" in an industry that's as oversaturated as law will help you get a job? Have at it.

2) There are plenty of things lawyers do besides work in "BIGLAW" firms, or shitty doc review, but if your options are that limited, maybe the unemployment line is for you after all.

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:17 am

Grizz wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:
Miami781 wrote:exactly, I want to be a lawyer because it is what I want to do, and am passionate about, however it is unreasonable for me to be in 200k debt from undergrad then another 200k in debt from law school, then make 45k a year

It would take me 9 years to pay back just my schooling let alone bills and such


It would almost certainly take you longer than 9 years to pay that kind of debt back at 45K a year. But the real truth is (and this is going to piss a lot of people off) there's no replacement for being competent, effective, and cutthroat. There are some very smart people who collect degrees; they think a J.D. from a law school entitles them to something. It doesn't. Furthermore, being smart and qualified doesn't mean you're going to be good at whatever it is you went to school for.

I'm a teacher. I got hired in this recession, in a state where teacher jobs have been cut continually for the last 6 years or so. Many of the kids from my credential programs ended up without jobs. I saw them complaining on Facebook about it. Some of them just gave up. I had to bust my ass making sure that I was not only knowledgeable and talented, but that I exuded that knowledge and talent in my interviews. I also worked very hard to have as many interviews as possible, and I thought "outside the box" to apply to places my peers weren't talking about.

Now I'm the department chair at my school. I did all the hiring/interviews for the English department last summer. There were a TON of applicants from great colleges. MA's and EDd's, from Stanford, Columbia, UCLA, Berkeley, USC (you only need a BA and a credential to be qualified for this job)- I quickly learned that these meant NOTHING. I definitely learned a lot from LORS, their cover letters, and the interview itself. I hired the people I thought would do the best job based on my professional experience. Somewhere, some Stanford MA graduate is complaining that his degree "didn't get me shit."

There's no denying that having a T14 degree is correlated with higher salaries. That's because those schools ONLY select the (supposedly) most hard-working, professional, intelligent, and talented students. That's likely the real reason employment stats look so favorable for them. Yes, some firms only hire from top schools BUT they're not the only firms offering jobs with that kind of salary. You can get the 160K job if you are competent, effective, and cutthroat. The cynical people talking about 45K post-J.D. employment are not worth listening to. They will probably interpret what I'm saying as suggesting they're not competent, effective, or cutthroat. That may be exactly what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is don't go to a great law school thinking it guarantees you a good job, and don't go to a mid-tier law school thinking it shuts you out of any job opportunities. And I think we can all agree that Tier 4 sucks; don't do it. That is all!

Legal hiring does not work like whatever you were doing. HTH.


In all the important ways, yes it does. In many superficial ways, of course not.
So are you on TLS because you're a prospective attorney who's never had a job, or are you an unemployed attorney who couldn't get hired?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:22 am

3v3ryth1ng wrote:
lawbanshee wrote:
It would almost certainly take you longer than 9 years to pay that kind of debt back at 45K a year. But the real truth is (and this is going to piss a lot of people off) there's no replacement for being competent, effective, and cutthroat. There are some very smart people who collect degrees; they think a J.D. from a law school entitles them to something. It doesn't. Furthermore, being smart and qualified doesn't mean you're going to be good at whatever it is you went to school for.

I'm a teacher. I got hired in this recession, in a state where teacher jobs have been cut continually for the last 6 years or so. Many of the kids from my credential programs ended up without jobs. I saw them complaining on Facebook about it. Some of them just gave up. I had to bust my ass making sure that I was not only knowledgeable and talented, but that I exuded that knowledge and talent in my interviews. I also worked very hard to have as many interviews as possible, and I thought "outside the box" to apply to places my peers weren't talking about.

Now I'm the department chair at my school. I did all the hiring/interviews for the English department last summer. There were a TON of applicants from great colleges. MA's and EDd's, from Stanford, Columbia, UCLA, Berkeley, USC (you only need a BA and a credential to be qualified for this job)- I quickly learned that these meant NOTHING. I definitely learned a lot from LORS, their cover letters, and the interview itself. I hired the people I thought would do the best job based on my professional experience. Somewhere, some Stanford MA graduate is complaining that his degree "didn't get me shit."

There's no denying that having a T14 degree is correlated with higher salaries. That's because those schools ONLY select the (supposedly) most hard-working, professional, intelligent, and talented students. That's likely the real reason employment stats look so favorable for them. Yes, some firms only hire from top schools BUT they're not the only firms offering jobs with that kind of salary. You can get the 160K job if you are competent, effective, and cutthroat. The cynical people talking about 45K post-J.D. employment are not worth listening to. They will probably interpret what I'm saying as suggesting they're not competent, effective, or cutthroat. That may be exactly what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is don't go to a great law school thinking it guarantees you a good job, and don't go to a mid-tier law school thinking it shuts you out of any job opportunities. And I think we can all agree that Tier 4 sucks; don't do it. That is all!


This is hilarious! Dood, law is def. not an "outside the box" industry. You either have the grades/school to get Biglaw via OCI, or you likely end up unemployed, working in doc review hell, or slaving away in shitlaw for 45 K.


Are you serious? For a board that's supposed to attract top law students, there sure are a ton of morons on here. That's so typical of people who go through 7 years of school without ever having to actually do anything. Apparently a lot of lawyers can't find jobs, which happens to be the case in a lot of industries, largely for the same reasons. Maybe you could take a little advice from someone who actually got hired, and has done some hiring.

1) Good grades and schools won't hurt you, but do you think you're entitled to a job because you read a book? You think that being "in the box" in an industry that's as oversaturated as law will help you get a job? Have at it.

2) There are plenty of things lawyers do besides work in "BIGLAW" firms, or shitty doc review, but if your options are that limited, maybe the unemployment line is for you after all.


Hm, I have to somewhat disagree with you. I mean, I agree with the TTTs generally sucking bit and the whole speech on hustling to get a job. Definitely; on an individual level, you are correct. But I don't think hustling is as useful as you believe when it comes to $160k jobs. Biglaw hiring is just........weird. The system (hell, law school itself and how it is setup) is just nonsensical. It is like our Medicare/Medicaid system (not making a political point, I just literally mean how random some components of that system are). A lot of kids just don't get a shot.

I mean, unless by "competent, effective, and cutthroat" you mean those rare few who are at the top of their class...and great interviewers, hard workers, etc. But do you honestly think THOSE are the people who are always complaining about unemployment?

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:59 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:
lawbanshee wrote:
It would almost certainly take you longer than 9 years to pay that kind of debt back at 45K a year. But the real truth is (and this is going to piss a lot of people off) there's no replacement for being competent, effective, and cutthroat. There are some very smart people who collect degrees; they think a J.D. from a law school entitles them to something. It doesn't. Furthermore, being smart and qualified doesn't mean you're going to be good at whatever it is you went to school for.

I'm a teacher. I got hired in this recession, in a state where teacher jobs have been cut continually for the last 6 years or so. Many of the kids from my credential programs ended up without jobs. I saw them complaining on Facebook about it. Some of them just gave up. I had to bust my ass making sure that I was not only knowledgeable and talented, but that I exuded that knowledge and talent in my interviews. I also worked very hard to have as many interviews as possible, and I thought "outside the box" to apply to places my peers weren't talking about.

Now I'm the department chair at my school. I did all the hiring/interviews for the English department last summer. There were a TON of applicants from great colleges. MA's and EDd's, from Stanford, Columbia, UCLA, Berkeley, USC (you only need a BA and a credential to be qualified for this job)- I quickly learned that these meant NOTHING. I definitely learned a lot from LORS, their cover letters, and the interview itself. I hired the people I thought would do the best job based on my professional experience. Somewhere, some Stanford MA graduate is complaining that his degree "didn't get me shit."

There's no denying that having a T14 degree is correlated with higher salaries. That's because those schools ONLY select the (supposedly) most hard-working, professional, intelligent, and talented students. That's likely the real reason employment stats look so favorable for them. Yes, some firms only hire from top schools BUT they're not the only firms offering jobs with that kind of salary. You can get the 160K job if you are competent, effective, and cutthroat. The cynical people talking about 45K post-J.D. employment are not worth listening to. They will probably interpret what I'm saying as suggesting they're not competent, effective, or cutthroat. That may be exactly what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is don't go to a great law school thinking it guarantees you a good job, and don't go to a mid-tier law school thinking it shuts you out of any job opportunities. And I think we can all agree that Tier 4 sucks; don't do it. That is all!


This is hilarious! Dood, law is def. not an "outside the box" industry. You either have the grades/school to get Biglaw via OCI, or you likely end up unemployed, working in doc review hell, or slaving away in shitlaw for 45 K.


Are you serious? For a board that's supposed to attract top law students, there sure are a ton of morons on here. That's so typical of people who go through 7 years of school without ever having to actually do anything. Apparently a lot of lawyers can't find jobs, which happens to be the case in a lot of industries, largely for the same reasons. Maybe you could take a little advice from someone who actually got hired, and has done some hiring.

1) Good grades and schools won't hurt you, but do you think you're entitled to a job because you read a book? You think that being "in the box" in an industry that's as oversaturated as law will help you get a job? Have at it.

2) There are plenty of things lawyers do besides work in "BIGLAW" firms, or shitty doc review, but if your options are that limited, maybe the unemployment line is for you after all.


Hm, I have to somewhat disagree with you. I mean, I agree with the TTTs generally sucking bit and the whole speech on hustling to get a job. Definitely; on an individual level, you are correct. But I don't think hustling is as useful as you believe when it comes to $160k jobs. Biglaw hiring is just........weird. The system (hell, law school itself and how it is setup) is just nonsensical. It is like our Medicare/Medicaid system (not making a political point, I just literally mean how random some components of that system are). A lot of kids just don't get a shot.

I mean, unless by "competent, effective, and cutthroat" you mean those rare few who are at the top of their class...and great interviewers, hard workers, etc. But do you honestly think THOSE are the people who are always complaining about unemployment?


Well, with respect to Biglaw, I know their hiring has its quirks, as do many industries. I don't think I could go in there with my J.D. from a TTT and hope that magically they'd decide to dip outside their usual pool. I do believe that people need to create opportunities though. For people who never create them, they simple don't exist.

I don't want to write too much (as I tend to do), because I agree with 99% of what you said. I was directing my original comments toward the crowd that seems to think "If I go here, and get this grade, I'll get a job making this much."

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:12 am

3v3ryth1ng wrote:I don't want to write too much (as I tend to do), because I agree with 99% of what you said. I was directing my original comments toward the crowd that seems to think "If I go here, and get this grade, I'll get a job making this much."


In that case, I absolutely agree. That mentality helps no one. Sure going to a high ranking school and getting high grades helps in netting that job...it isn't guaranteed. However, I also feel that, given the economy and the spotlight that's been placed on law schools in recent months/years, fewer and fewer students still think like this.

cgwifey
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby cgwifey » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:15 am

RMstratosphere wrote:
DeweyDell wrote:The average starting salary coming out of a j.d. program is $160,000, plus bonus. It will increase by an average of $15,000 each year thereafter. This is why law school tuition is so high; it's simply too easy to pay off your loans with this kind of starting salary. Plan your finances accordingly.

Best,
Dewey Dell, Esq.


The average salary is a misleading figure. Salaries in the legal profession are bimodal. A small percentage of practitioners earn six figures and even as much as 160,000. A much, much larger percentage earn $45,000-$65,000 and a substantial percentage earn less than that. The reason that law school tuition is so high has nearly nothing to do with the starting salary of a person at Cravath.

Search TLS for "bimodal" and you should find a much more thorough discussion of this topic.



Depends where you live and what you want to do. I work in a law firm with a few associates who just graduated last year. They said some offers were only $45k.

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Eirhoff73
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Eirhoff73 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:03 pm

Grizz wrote:
Miami781 wrote:I honestly don't know if I want to go to law school if I am going to be making 45k a year....

I feel like I could work at McDonald's 8 hours a day and make 30k a year...

It is not worth being a lawyer financially unless it is at least 70k coming out of law school to pay off massive loans between undergrad and J.D.

Yeah but then you can tell chicks you are a lawyer.



Beats the hell out of telling her that you can get her a 10% discount on a happy meal. Although, you can grease her up with the oil from the friers. Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

It's funny that you should mention McDonald's. I have my wife in a panic when I tell her that I could work for McDonald's after law school. I only want the degree for me. This is, of course, a bold faced lie. My hope is to be able to help those that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford a lawyer. I'm considering family law, immigration or real estate. I hope to be able to work with clients on a sliding scale one day.

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:11 am

Eirhoff73 wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Miami781 wrote:I honestly don't know if I want to go to law school if I am going to be making 45k a year....

I feel like I could work at McDonald's 8 hours a day and make 30k a year...

It is not worth being a lawyer financially unless it is at least 70k coming out of law school to pay off massive loans between undergrad and J.D.

Yeah but then you can tell chicks you are a lawyer.



Beats the hell out of telling her that you can get her a 10% discount on a happy meal. Although, you can grease her up with the oil from the friers. Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

It's funny that you should mention McDonald's. I have my wife in a panic when I tell her that I could work for McDonald's after law school. I only want the degree for me. This is, of course, a bold faced lie. My hope is to be able to help those that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford a lawyer. I'm considering family law, immigration or real estate. I hope to be able to work with clients on a sliding scale one day.


Lol, not very popular fields

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Eirhoff73
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Eirhoff73 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:32 am

Hawkeye Pierce wrote:
Eirhoff73 wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Miami781 wrote:I honestly don't know if I want to go to law school if I am going to be making 45k a year....

I feel like I could work at McDonald's 8 hours a day and make 30k a year...

It is not worth being a lawyer financially unless it is at least 70k coming out of law school to pay off massive loans between undergrad and J.D.

Yeah but then you can tell chicks you are a lawyer.



Beats the hell out of telling her that you can get her a 10% discount on a happy meal. Although, you can grease her up with the oil from the friers. Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

It's funny that you should mention McDonald's. I have my wife in a panic when I tell her that I could work for McDonald's after law school. I only want the degree for me. This is, of course, a bold faced lie. My hope is to be able to help those that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford a lawyer. I'm considering family law, immigration or real estate. I hope to be able to work with clients on a sliding scale one day.


Lol, not very popular fields


Unless you have sixteen year old friends.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:03 pm

Grizz wrote:
Miami781 wrote:I honestly don't know if I want to go to law school if I am going to be making 45k a year....

I feel like I could work at McDonald's 8 hours a day and make 30k a year...

It is not worth being a lawyer financially unless it is at least 70k coming out of law school to pay off massive loans between undergrad and J.D.

Yeah but then you can tell chicks you are a lawyer.

Why else go to UMiami?

Real Madrid
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Real Madrid » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:49 pm

MTal wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Miami781 wrote:I honestly don't know if I want to go to law school if I am going to be making 45k a year....

I feel like I could work at McDonald's 8 hours a day and make 30k a year...

It is not worth being a lawyer financially unless it is at least 70k coming out of law school to pay off massive loans between undergrad and J.D.

Yeah but then you can tell chicks you are a lawyer.


I could tell chicks I'm a stock broker, but I don't. Usually if they ask, I tell them I work at a box factory, which always draws a laugh. If you have to fall back on your occupation to impress the opposite sex, it shows that you are a tool that lacks any game to begin with.



You have over 2000 posts on a professional forum that has nothing to do with your current occupation. So the thought of you talking about "game" and "the opposite sex" is laughable. Get back to your preaching.

leifengus
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby leifengus » Sat May 14, 2016 1:38 pm

deleted

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Average Salary coming out of Law School

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sat May 14, 2016 1:40 pm

leifengus wrote:this is a relevant scientific statistic, you could check. I think if you go to the top law school, the salary generally would be from entry level - 16k
https://leifengus.com/2016/04/22/2016%E7%BE%8E%E5%9B%BD%E5%A4%A7%E5%AD%A6%E6%B3%95%E5%AD%A6jd%E9%A1%B9%E7%9B%AE%E5%B7%A5%E8%B5%84%E6%8E%92%E8%A1%8C/


bad bump, this is stupid just look at what percentage of schools grad start in biglaw. if it's 50.1% or 100% median salary is gonna be 160k




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