Employment situation really that dire?

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meatball122
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Employment situation really that dire?

Postby meatball122 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:15 am

Hello-

There is obviously A LOT of information out there on the state of employment in the legal world. But im having a hard time sorting through it all. Everyone refers to not getting callbacks from V-15 firms, etc as huge failures. TLS bias? Is it likely that as a median student at a t-14 schools that you will be entirely unemployed? (Assuming you arent a social retard, didnt fart during your interview, etc and otherwise are "average".) Or is this TLS bias too? Would they not be able to find jobs at smaller and less prestigious law firms making like 100k vice 160k?

Say, for example: median at Northwestern with 3-4 years finance WE. Would they not be able to find jobs at medium sized law firm making above-mentioned 'decent' salary in or around Chicago?

Id presume that most people are up to their eyeballs in debt and therefore consider anything other than big law to be a failure? Or is the situation really that fucked?
Last edited by meatball122 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:15 am

New and exciting.

meatball122
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby meatball122 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:18 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:New and exciting.

Sarcasm noted. But the legal employment section on this site is focused on OCI, etc. I have no idea which firm is which and what half of the stuff even means. Im just trying to sort through the fluff.

Easier said than done when you work 13 hours a day in a tent in Afghanistan and only get access to internet when your allotted 15 minutes arises and operations allow...

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:20 am

meatball122 wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:New and exciting.

Sarcasm noted. But the legal employment section on this site is focused on OCI, etc. I have no idea which firm is which and what half of the stuff even means. Im just trying to sort through the fluff.

Easier said than done when you work 13 hours a day in a tent in Afghanistan and only get access to internet when your allotted 15 minutes arises and operations allow...


Thank you for your service, but there are far happier places I would spend my 15 minutes on the internet than TLS

meatball122
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby meatball122 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:21 am

When youre trying to decide the next 60 years of your life from a tent in Afghanistan, responsibility > happy.

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NZA
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby NZA » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:24 am

OP,

I'd recommend checking out:

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

The data are all self-reported from students, so don't expect it to be 100% accurate. However, the information on this website might be more accurate than statistics reported from law schools (especially Villanova, lulz).

Look at the data for schools that you are considering applying to, and ask yourself if a JD is a worthy investment.

meatball122
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby meatball122 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:36 am

NZA wrote:OP,

I'd recommend checking out:

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

The data are all self-reported from students, so don't expect it to be 100% accurate. However, the information on this website might be more accurate than statistics reported from law schools (especially Villanova, lulz).

Look at the data for schools that you are considering applying to, and ask yourself if a JD is a worthy investment.

Interesting. I looked briefly at Georgetown, NU, and (because you mentioned it) Villanova. It seems to paint a rosy picture.

Gtown: 92% employed after 9 months, 160 median salary.
NU: 95% employed after 9 months, 160 median salary.
Nova: 86% employed after 9 months, 135 median salary.

Kinda illustrates my point. What to believe? "Neutral" yet certainly not 100% accurate sites like the one you mentioned or the apocalyptic outlook of TLS?

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby Gecko of Doom » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:38 am

In before:

"Yes, it is. There are no jobs. Top 10% law review people at HYS are graduating unemployed. Think you'll be able to find work outside of biglaw? Sure. There are craigslist jobs for coders paying $15 an hour.

"That reminds me of a funny story. When I was working as a coder in the basement of a V10 firm... blah blah... There was this one socially awkward guy who smelled funny... European coworker said back home this would be considered slave labor... Sometimes the 'real' associates would give us scraps from their lunches... We had to keep mace in our desks to protect ourselves from the sewer rats the partners would set loose on us... etc."

[/areyouinsane]

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Helmholtz
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:43 am

meatball122 wrote:the apocalyptic outlook of TLS?


tbf, I think a lot of this comes from a very vocal minority. Nobody is really going from thread to thread telling everybody about how awesome his Cravath offer is in the same style as other posters going from thread to thread telling everybody how awful life is.

071816
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby 071816 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:49 am

Gecko of Doom wrote:In before:

"Yes, it is. There are no jobs. Top 10% law review people at HYS are graduating unemployed. Think you'll be able to find work outside of biglaw? Sure. There are craigslist jobs for coders paying $15 an hour.

"That reminds me of a funny story. When I was working as a coder in the basement of a V10 firm... blah blah... There was this one socially awkward guy who smelled funny... European coworker said back home this would be considered slave labor... Sometimes the 'real' associates would give us scraps from their lunches... We had to keep mace in our desks to protect ourselves from the sewer rats the partners would set loose on us... etc."

[/areyouinsane]


LOL this reminds me of his "piss feet" story. That shit was hilarious.

meatball122
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby meatball122 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:56 am

Helmholtz wrote:
meatball122 wrote:the apocalyptic outlook of TLS?


tbf, I think a lot of this comes from a very vocal minority. Nobody is really going from thread to thread telling everybody about how awesome his Cravath offer is in the same style as other posters going from thread to thread telling everybody how awful life is.

Whether this is true or not is exactly what Im trying to ascertain.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby birdlaw117 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:04 am

meatball122 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
meatball122 wrote:the apocalyptic outlook of TLS?


tbf, I think a lot of this comes from a very vocal minority. Nobody is really going from thread to thread telling everybody about how awesome his Cravath offer is in the same style as other posters going from thread to thread telling everybody how awful life is.

Whether this is true or not is exactly what Im trying to ascertain.

Two things:

1. Basically, just do your due diligence. The information is out there, you just can't expect to get information from schools and be able to rely on it. TLS is a good resource. Depending on your particular risk appetite, you'll have to judge what your cutoff is as far as what schools you would go to at sticker, or with half-scholly, etc.

2. Don't say you're in Afghanistan and that you only have 15 minutes on the Internet and then be posting for 45 minutes. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just fortunate enough to get some extra time today. And, I thank you for your service. However, if you just said that as a way to avoid being called out for trolling, or whatever, that's pretty uncool.

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NZA
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby NZA » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:33 am

meatball122 wrote:
NZA wrote:OP,

I'd recommend checking out:

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

The data are all self-reported from students, so don't expect it to be 100% accurate. However, the information on this website might be more accurate than statistics reported from law schools (especially Villanova, lulz).

Look at the data for schools that you are considering applying to, and ask yourself if a JD is a worthy investment.

Interesting. I looked briefly at Georgetown, NU, and (because you mentioned it) Villanova. It seems to paint a rosy picture.

Gtown: 92% employed after 9 months, 160 median salary.
NU: 95% employed after 9 months, 160 median salary.
Nova: 86% employed after 9 months, 135 median salary.

Kinda illustrates my point. What to believe? "Neutral" yet certainly not 100% accurate sites like the one you mentioned or the apocalyptic outlook of TLS?

Any T14's employment statistics are going to be rosy. They're great schools, and their students haven't hit AS hard as others.

At Villanova, however:

30.8% employed in private sector, not reporting income.
22.4% employed at other, not reporting income.

In other words, slightly less than 50% of Villanova grads are reporting their incomes. For all you know, the 30% that are employed in the private sector are doing doc review, and the 22% are working at restaurants.

Just be careful. If TLS has taught me anything, it's to not be so cavalier about taking six figures of debt for a JD. I would say that the overall tone of TLS isn't apocalyptic, it's cautious.

071816
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby 071816 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:40 am

NZA wrote:
meatball122 wrote:
NZA wrote:OP,

I'd recommend checking out:

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

The data are all self-reported from students, so don't expect it to be 100% accurate. However, the information on this website might be more accurate than statistics reported from law schools (especially Villanova, lulz).

Look at the data for schools that you are considering applying to, and ask yourself if a JD is a worthy investment.

Interesting. I looked briefly at Georgetown, NU, and (because you mentioned it) Villanova. It seems to paint a rosy picture.

Gtown: 92% employed after 9 months, 160 median salary.
NU: 95% employed after 9 months, 160 median salary.
Nova: 86% employed after 9 months, 135 median salary.

Kinda illustrates my point. What to believe? "Neutral" yet certainly not 100% accurate sites like the one you mentioned or the apocalyptic outlook of TLS?

Any T14's employment statistics are going to be rosy. They're great schools, and their students haven't hit AS hard as others.

At Villanova, however:

30.8% employed in private sector, not reporting income.
22.4% employed at other, not reporting income.

In other words, slightly less than 50% of Villanova grads are reporting their incomes. For all you know, the 30% that are employed in the private sector are doing doc review, and the 22% are working at restaurants.

Just be careful. If TLS has taught me anything, it's to not be so cavalier about taking six figures of debt for a JD. I would say that the overall tone of TLS isn't apocalyptic, it's cautious.


I definitely agree with the bolded, with the exception of areyouinsane, Mtal, and a few other posters.

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NZA
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby NZA » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:04 am

chimp wrote:
NZA wrote:Any T14's employment statistics are going to be rosy. They're great schools, and their students haven't hit AS hard as others.

At Villanova, however:

30.8% employed in private sector, not reporting income.
22.4% employed at other, not reporting income.

In other words, slightly less than 50% of Villanova grads are reporting their incomes. For all you know, the 30% that are employed in the private sector are doing doc review, and the 22% are working at restaurants.

Just be careful. If TLS has taught me anything, it's to not be so cavalier about taking six figures of debt for a JD. I would say that the overall tone of TLS isn't apocalyptic, it's cautious.


I definitely agree with the bolded, with the exception of areyouinsane, Mtal, and a few other posters.


Indeed.

Also, I just figured out (I am retarded) that if you click "Job Characteristics" in the top right, it gives a break down.

To return to Villanova (sorry to pick on these guys):

09.8% are unemployed.
14.6% are working in "Business & Industry."
47.3% are working in a law firm.
05.2% are working in the public interest.
And roughly 08% are working as clerks (with 1.7% of those being Article III).

Some further information...:

69.7% of positions require a JD.
09.5% of positions are JD preferred.

In other words, slightly more than 20% of all Villanova grads are not actually using their JD nine months after graduation. That means one in five graduates wasted what I'm sure was a lot of money to get a degree they aren't even able to use. On top of that, one in ten are straight up out of work.

This is exactly why you should research ALL the schools you contemplate attending. Because let's take a look at Villanova's website...:

Business: 17%
Government, Public Interest, Academic, and Military: 15%
Judicial Clerkships: 9%
Private Practice: 55%

They are reporting 96% employment on their website, while their students are reporting roughly 90% (and again, only 80% of Villanova grads are in positions that require (roughly 70%) or prefer (10%) a JD!).

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MTal
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby MTal » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:08 am

The employment situation is much, MUCH worse than anyone who is not in law school could possibly imagine.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:13 am

MTal wrote:The employment situation is much, MUCH worse than anyone who is not in law school could possibly imagine.


+1

As MTal has suggested earlier, working at Hot Topic in the mall is where the upward mobility is. In no time at all, you'll be running the mall, making well over six figures, and have no debt. MTal and I guesstimate this should take you five years max.

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NZA
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby NZA » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:15 am

Helmholtz wrote:
MTal wrote:The employment situation is much, MUCH worse than anyone who is not in law school could possibly imagine.


+1

As MTal has suggested earlier, working at Hot Topic in the mall is where the upward mobility is. In no time at all, you'll be running the mall, making well over six figures, and have no debt. MTal and I guesstimate this should take you five years max.

I was shocked when I saw the +1.

Then I lold.

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soj
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby soj » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:16 am

IAMTal

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MTal
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby MTal » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:18 am

Helmholtz wrote:
MTal wrote:The employment situation is much, MUCH worse than anyone who is not in law school could possibly imagine.


+1

As MTal has suggested earlier, working at Hot Topic in the mall is where the upward mobility is. In no time at all, you'll be running the mall, making well over six figures, and have no debt. MTal and I guesstimate this should take you five years max.


After 5 years if you are talented and work hard, you could become the hot topic store manager, with a salary of prolly around 60k. Considering that, plus the benefits, plus being able to leave work at work, and it's really not that bad of a gig, especially when compared with shitlaw.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby Jack Smirks » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:22 am

MTal wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
MTal wrote:The employment situation is much, MUCH worse than anyone who is not in law school could possibly imagine.


+1

As MTal has suggested earlier, working at Hot Topic in the mall is where the upward mobility is. In no time at all, you'll be running the mall, making well over six figures, and have no debt. MTal and I guesstimate this should take you five years max.


After 5 years if you are talented and work hard, you could become the hot topic store manager, with a salary of prolly around 60k. Considering that, plus the benefits, plus being able to leave work at work, and it's really not that bad of a gig, especially when compared with shitlaw.

Are you seriously going to leave out 15% off spiked collars and gauge earrings? Perks galore bro.

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby Gecko of Doom » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:22 am

MTal wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
MTal wrote:The employment situation is much, MUCH worse than anyone who is not in law school could possibly imagine.


+1

As MTal has suggested earlier, working at Hot Topic in the mall is where the upward mobility is. In no time at all, you'll be running the mall, making well over six figures, and have no debt. MTal and I guesstimate this should take you five years max.


After 5 years if you are talented and work hard, you could become the hot topic store manager, with a salary of prolly around 60k. Considering that, plus the benefits, plus being able to leave work at work, and it's really not that bad of a gig, especially when compared with shitlaw.

OMG. Where do I sign up?

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MTal
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby MTal » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:24 am

naterj wrote: Are you seriously going to leave out 15% off spiked collars and gauge earrings? Perks galore bro.


**yawn**

Painfully unfunny.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:24 am

MTal wrote:you could become the hot topic store manager, with a salary of prolly around 60k.


I doubt most Hot Topic managers even touch the $40k mark.

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glitter178
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Re: Employment situation really that dire?

Postby glitter178 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:25 am

MTal wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
MTal wrote:The employment situation is much, MUCH worse than anyone who is not in law school could possibly imagine.


+1

As MTal has suggested earlier, working at Hot Topic in the mall is where the upward mobility is. In no time at all, you'll be running the mall, making well over six figures, and have no debt. MTal and I guesstimate this should take you five years max.


After 5 years if you are talented and work hard, you could become the hot topic store manager, with a salary of prolly around 60k. Considering that, plus the benefits, plus being able to leave work at work, and it's really not that bad of a gig, especially when compared with shitlaw.

IBT STFU. Also, aren't you not in law school anymore? What's your motivation? You're like the 40 year old who keeps hanging around the high school thinking the 18 year old girls are interested in your stories.




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