why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

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SarahKerrigan
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why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby SarahKerrigan » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:50 pm

why is this such an important factor when finding a job? is it because employers havent heard of the other schools or some other reason?

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cinephile
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby cinephile » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:56 pm

Well, I'm an incoming 1L, so I don't know anything about finding legal jobs, but have a thought about this. Consider the importance of alumni connections. These are people you can reach out to, who'll want to hire one of their own. Where do they end up? For local schools, they'll be primarily in the same region.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Kilpatrick » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:04 pm

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Last edited by Kilpatrick on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rinkrat19
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:07 pm

You go to school where you want to practice because that's the only place you'll likely be able to get a job. Employers in other markets likely won't have networking ties to a lower-ranked regional school. Only the very top schools (T2/T3/T6/T10/T14 to varying degrees) have national prestige and portability.

Scenario: A Phoenix law firm has a choice between an ASU grad and a UGA grad. The firm has a dozen or more ASU grads already working there, including the hiring partner. The ASU grad is able to convincingly say that he wants to live and work in Phoenix because he's lived there for several years already. He can chat comfortably with his interviewers about last night's Suns game and whether the best place to get coffee at 1am near the ASU law campus is still there, so he makes an instant connection. Presumably all the ASU alums at the firm are happy with their educations from that school and would be happy to work with another member of the 'club.' All the firm knows about UGA is the USNWR ranking, something about a bulldog mascot, and that it is most definitely not in Phoenix. Who do you think is going to get the job?

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Glock
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:12 pm

If your school does not have national respect (like the T14), then it will likely only have respect in the area that it resides. The reasons behind this are many, but they center on perceived quality of the school, alumni, and a regional familiarity with the school.

Example: a Columbia grad can be competitive anywhere in the country and in both large and small markets.

Example: A University of New Mexico grad has virtually no chance of a decent job outside of New Mexico. They might be about to reach out into the southwest a bit. A New Mexico grad has no chance of a job in Chicago or other large markets unless they have special connections or are #1 in their class and sell themselves.

Example: A South Carolina grad has great job prospects in South Carolina. They have terrible job prospects in Atlanta, NYC, DC. Why? The regional respect for the school is high even though they are tier 2 nationally.

Scenarios:
I want to work in NYC. Should I go to University of Florida, Arizona State, or Chicago? ASU and UF are regional schools with little reach. NYC firms are not going to be interested. Chicago has a great reputation and is respected nationally. Chicago.

I want to work in Arizona. Should I go to Arizona State, Northwestern, or Georgia? Arizona State is a regional school in the region you want to work in, it is a good choice. There are many ASU grads there and law firms frequently hire from that school. Northwestern is a school with national respect, it will be competitive in Arizona. Georgia is a regional school far outside of the region you want to end up in. Few Arizona firms are going to be interested in a Georgia grad. The answer is Arizona State or Northwestern, with an advantage to Northwestern because you can still be competitive with median grades. Arizona state, on the other hand, would take top 10-20% to even get your foot in the door. Still, ASU or Northwestern would be good choices.


If you are considering going to a school outside of the T14 you should probably be content to work in the school's area. Most lower ranked schools are respected only regionally, and therefore place only regionally. Some lower ranked schools have a better national reputation than others, so it goes on a case-by-case basis.

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Glock
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:13 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Scenario: A Phoenix law firm has a choice between an ASU grad and a UGA grad. The firm has a dozen or more ASU grads already working there, including the hiring partner. The ASU grad is able to convincingly say that he wants to live and work in Phoenix because he's lived there for several years already. He can chat comfortably with his interviewers about last night's Suns game and whether the best place to get coffee at 1am near the ASU law campus is still there, so he makes an instant connection. Presumably all the ASU alums at the firm are happy with their educations from that school and would be happy to work with another member of the 'club.' All the firm knows about UGA is the USNWR ranking, something about a bulldog mascot, and that it is most definitely not in Phoenix. Who do you think is going to get the job?



WOW. I swear to God that I wrote mine without reading yours. It is rather interesting that we both compared ASU to UGA in the Arizona market.

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vanwinkle
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:13 pm

cinephile wrote:Well, I'm an incoming 1L, so I don't know anything about finding legal jobs, but have a thought about this. Consider the importance of alumni connections. These are people you can reach out to, who'll want to hire one of their own. Where do they end up? For local schools, they'll be primarily in the same region.

This is a big reason. There's also reputation, which is an important factor. Even if you're not using an alumni connection, an employer is more likely to know people from local schools and have an idea of how good that school is. Baylor is ranked ahead of Seattle U, for example, but employers in WA and OR are going to have met Seattle U grads and understand what kind of school Seattle U is right away. Many won't know anything about Baylor, and it's not like they'll pick up a copy of USNWR and look up its ranking to see how good it is.

I also suspect some hiring is influenced by regionalism, and by that I mean human bias. People like to hire and associate with people who are like them, and one easy way to screen for that is to just hire people who went to school near you. The odds are just higher that a Seattle U grad will be a better fit in a Seattle law firm than a Baylor grad would be. And if the Baylor grad really wanted to be in Seattle, why didn't he just go to Seattle U, or Lewis & Clark, or at least something in the area?

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rinkrat19
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:17 pm

Glock wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Scenario: A Phoenix law firm has a choice between an ASU grad and a UGA grad. The firm has a dozen or more ASU grads already working there, including the hiring partner. The ASU grad is able to convincingly say that he wants to live and work in Phoenix because he's lived there for several years already. He can chat comfortably with his interviewers about last night's Suns game and whether the best place to get coffee at 1am near the ASU law campus is still there, so he makes an instant connection. Presumably all the ASU alums at the firm are happy with their educations from that school and would be happy to work with another member of the 'club.' All the firm knows about UGA is the USNWR ranking, something about a bulldog mascot, and that it is most definitely not in Phoenix. Who do you think is going to get the job?



WOW. I swear to God that I wrote mine without reading yours. It is rather interesting that we both compared ASU to UGA in the Arizona market.
:) I literally looked at the rankings and picked the nearest, comparably obscure, state school that also cares about football. You probably did it without cheating and looking at the list. :wink:

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BruceWayne
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:18 pm

And FWIW the only top 14 schools that I would say are completely national are H and Y. Honestly, outside of that the respect and affinity for even the top 14 varies by region.

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Glock
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:21 pm

BruceWayne wrote:And FWIW the only top 14 schools that I would say are completely national are H and Y. Honestly, outside of that the respect and affinity for even the top 14 varies by region.



Maybe with highly insular markets. In mid to large markets the T14 gets a lot of respect.

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Grizz
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Grizz » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:29 pm

If I have to hear any more of this T14=national, everything else=regional shit I'm gonna puke. It's pretty asinine.

Where you can get a job with your degree depends on 1) your ties to the region you're targeting, 2) your grades, and 3) your school's name brand recognition in the region you want.

T14 happen to be high on 3, but even they are regional.

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vanwinkle
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:32 pm

Glock wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:And FWIW the only top 14 schools that I would say are completely national are H and Y. Honestly, outside of that the respect and affinity for even the top 14 varies by region.

Maybe with highly insular markets. In mid to large markets the T14 gets a lot of respect.

In many of those markets the distant T14s get a lot of respect, but only when employers are considering students with ties to that market/state. You have to be careful when describing this; it can give people the false impression that a T14 opens all those markets up to you, when it doesn't. It only opens up those markets you have a personal stake in already.

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BruceWayne
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:02 pm

Grizz wrote:If I have to hear any more of this T14=national, everything else=regional shit I'm gonna puke. It's pretty asinine.

Where you can get a job with your degree depends on 1) your ties to the region you're targeting, 2) your grades, and 3) your school's name brand recognition in the region you want.

T14 happen to be high on 3, but even they are regional.
If I have to hear any more of this T14=national, everything else=regional shit I'm gonna puke. It's pretty asinine.

Where you can get a job with your degree depends on 1) your ties to the region you're targeting, 2) your grades, and 3) your school's name brand recognition in the region you want.

T14 happen to be high on 3, but even they are regional.



vanwinkle wrote:In many of those markets the distant T14s get a lot of respect, but only when employers are considering students with ties to that market/state. You have to be careful when describing this; it can give people the false impression that a T14 opens all those markets up to you, when it doesn't. It only opens up those markets you have a personal stake in already.

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Glock
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:04 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Glock wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:And FWIW the only top 14 schools that I would say are completely national are H and Y. Honestly, outside of that the respect and affinity for even the top 14 varies by region.

Maybe with highly insular markets. In mid to large markets the T14 gets a lot of respect.

In many of those markets the distant T14s get a lot of respect, but only when employers are considering students with ties to that market/state. You have to be careful when describing this; it can give people the false impression that a T14 opens all those markets up to you, when it doesn't. It only opens up those markets you have a personal stake in already.



Yeah, I was only talking about respect of school. The point is that you get locked out with an out-of-region school, regardless of ties.

Plus ties can be manufactured in any but the most demanding markets.

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Verity
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Verity » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:09 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Many won't know anything about Baylor, and it's not like they'll pick up a copy of USNWR and look up its ranking to see how good it is.


Are they really that out of touch?

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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Grizz » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:13 pm

Glock wrote:Plus ties can be manufactured in any but the most demanding markets.

Not really. If you're a Californian who went to, say, Boalt, and you want ATL, you're probably not gonna get looks absent niiiice grades. And ATL is definitely not the most demanding of markets.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Kilpatrick » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:16 pm

Verity wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Many won't know anything about Baylor, and it's not like they'll pick up a copy of USNWR and look up its ranking to see how good it is.


Are they really that out of touch?


I don't know anything about Baylor except that a really tall girl plays basketball there. I couldn't tell you where their law school was ranked with a gun to my head.

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Grizz
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Grizz » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:17 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:
Verity wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Many won't know anything about Baylor, and it's not like they'll pick up a copy of USNWR and look up its ranking to see how good it is.


Are they really that out of touch?


I don't know anything about Baylor except that a really tall girl plays basketball there. I couldn't tell you where their law school was ranked with a gun to my head.


Hell all I know is that they have some sort of trial team? Maybe? And I have 10,000 TLS poasts lulz

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vanwinkle
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:19 pm

Verity wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Many won't know anything about Baylor, and it's not like they'll pick up a copy of USNWR and look up its ranking to see how good it is.

Are they really that out of touch?

Is this sarcasm?

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Helmholtz
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:20 pm

Baylor has a law school?

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Glock
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:22 pm

Grizz wrote:
Glock wrote:Plus ties can be manufactured in any but the most demanding markets.

Not really. If you're a Californian who went to, say, Boalt, and you want ATL, you're probably not gonna get looks absent niiiice grades. And ATL is definitely not the most demanding of markets.



You are just setting up a scenario where that person failed to manufacture any ties. That Californian failed to secure an undergrad or law summer internship in ATL. Those are REALLY EASY to get. Most common you see summer law internships/jobs. It just requires some advance planning.

If you suddenly decide to switch targets it does become a little harder because you have to fall back on fake ties (which actually work fine in a lot of places).

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vanwinkle
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:24 pm

Glock wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Glock wrote:Plus ties can be manufactured in any but the most demanding markets.

Not really. If you're a Californian who went to, say, Boalt, and you want ATL, you're probably not gonna get looks absent niiiice grades. And ATL is definitely not the most demanding of markets.

You are just setting up a scenario where that person failed to manufacture any ties. That Californian failed to secure an undergrad or law summer internship in ATL. Those are REALLY EASY to get. Most common you see summer law internships/jobs. It just requires some advance planning.

If you suddenly decide to switch targets it does become a little harder because you have to fall back on fake ties (which actually work fine in a lot of places).

WTF?

In some markets, employers really want real ties. This is especially true in markets in the South. A summer internship doesn't mean shit to them. You'd better have lived there, and for a while, before you start acting like you have "ties" to the market.

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Glock
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:36 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Glock wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Glock wrote:Plus ties can be manufactured in any but the most demanding markets.

Not really. If you're a Californian who went to, say, Boalt, and you want ATL, you're probably not gonna get looks absent niiiice grades. And ATL is definitely not the most demanding of markets.

You are just setting up a scenario where that person failed to manufacture any ties. That Californian failed to secure an undergrad or law summer internship in ATL. Those are REALLY EASY to get. Most common you see summer law internships/jobs. It just requires some advance planning.

If you suddenly decide to switch targets it does become a little harder because you have to fall back on fake ties (which actually work fine in a lot of places).

WTF?

In some markets, employers really want real ties. This is especially true in markets in the South. A summer internship doesn't mean shit to them. You'd better have lived there, and for a while, before you start acting like you have "ties" to the market.



I mentioned that some markets are harder than others. Some markets don't care about ties. Can I make fun of your point now?

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Grizz
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Grizz » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:42 pm

That's not really what you said there dooder.

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Glock
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Re: why is going to school in the state you practice in importan

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:46 pm

Grizz wrote:That's not really what you said there dooder.



Glock wrote:
Plus ties can be manufactured in any but the most demanding markets.



hmmmm. I thought the LSAT had a reading comprehension section. Fill in the blank- "If there are demanding markets this also implies the existence of ____ _________ _______."

LESS or NOT DEMANDING MARKETS. That is right!

The statement also means that ties cannot be manufactured in the most demanding markets!




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