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ihhwap1
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Postby ihhwap1 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:54 pm

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Last edited by ihhwap1 on Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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booboo
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:39 pm

Re: ABA To Collect More Detailed Employment Data?

Postby booboo » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:08 pm

It makes me wonder what the U.S. News is going to do in response to this information. I really couldn't care what they have to say but I know that it matters to law school personnel and administrations.

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GeePee
Posts: 1273
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:35 pm

Re: ABA To Collect More Detailed Employment Data?

Postby GeePee » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:09 pm

We'll see how bluntly the ABA names these categories and how transparently the numbers are presented. But this is definitely a step in the right direction.

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Corwin
Posts: 451
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Re: ABA To Collect More Detailed Employment Data?

Postby Corwin » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:25 pm

I'd be really interested to see the effect of increased transparency on tuition. Seems like top schools would stay about the same, but I think lower ranked schools would be forced to make adjustments.

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observationalist
Posts: 472
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Re: ABA To Collect More Detailed Employment Data?

Postby observationalist » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:42 am

GeePee wrote:We'll see how bluntly the ABA names these categories and how transparently the numbers are presented. But this is definitely a step in the right direction.


Here's what we know so far about some of the categories ... we still have to evaluate how the data will be presented to applicants or whether some of it will remain hidden. But so far it looks good. NOTE: the temp agency distinction is already required but there has been little oversight and we suspect schools have in the past been counting temp attorneys as employed in private practice. Also, this only clarifies how schools should report graduate outcomes to the ABA; new rules dictating how schools must present outcomes to applicants have not been finalized yet. In many ways the rules on presentation are going to be more important in making sure applicants can both access and understand the data. -obs

DEFINITIONS
EMPLOYMENT STATUS

Short-term. A short-term position is one that has a definite term of less than one year. Thus, a clerkship that has a definite term of one year or more is not a short-term position. In addition, a position that is envisioned by the graduate and the employer to extend for one year or more is not a short-term position even though it is conditioned on bar licensure. Thus, a long-term position that is conditioned on passing the bar exam by a certain date does not become a short-term position because of the condition.

Long-term. A long-term position is one that does not have a definite term of less than one year. It may have a definite length of time as long as the time is longer than one year. It may also have an indefinite length but is expected to last more than one year. Just because a short-term position may evolve into a long-term position does not make the position a long-term position. An example or a long-term position is an associate in a law firm.

...

6) Law school funded. A job is law school funded if the law school or the university of which it is a part pays the salary of the graduate directly or indirectly and in any amount. Thus, a person employed in the law library has a law school funded position. Similarly, if the position is in the university’s library, the position is law school funded. The position may be either a long-term position or a short-term position. Thus, a graduate may be hired in a permanent position in the university’s office of legal counsel and that position will be a long-term position because it does not have a definite term of less than one year. However, a graduate whose position is less than one year is in a short-term position. Thus, a graduate hired as a seasonal recruiter by the law school’s admission office is in a short-term position. The position is funded directly if the graduate is on the payroll of the law school or the university. The position is funded indirectly if the law school or the university funds another entity in any way to pay the salary. The position is funded indirectly if it is paid through funds solicited by an outside donor. Thus, a graduate employed in the law library and whose salary is paid by the law school is funded directly by the law school. A graduate who is employed by a legal services office whose position is funded in any amount by the law school is funded indirectly by the law school.

* Since the information to answer this question is inherently available to the law school, the burden of answering this question is on the law school and does not depend on the answer that the graduate may provide in any employment survey. Accordingly, either a “yes” or “no” must be checked; there is no unknown category.


EMPLOYMENT TYPE

1. Law Firms. Law firms include firms specializing in any area of the law, including those specializing in public interest law. Any job in a law firm, including associate, law clerk, law firm librarian, paralegal, and clerical position is to be reported here. ...
Note that graduates working on a contract basis and hired directly by the firm should also be reported here. However, graduates employed at a law firm through an agency which places attorneys in temporary positions should be reported under – Business and Industry.
...

16) Business and Industry. Business and industry employers include legal temporary agencies, accounting firms, investment banking and financial institutions, entertainment/sports management companies, insurance companies, management consulting firms, publishing houses, technology/e-commerce companies, trade associations, political campaigns, etc.

Business and industry positions include temporary attorney work, temporary law clerk or paralegal work, in-house counsel, management, business development/sales/marketing, human resources, consulting, etc.

In-house positions are defined as attorney positions within the law or legal department of a company and reporting to the office of general counsel or associate general counsel; the law department handles some portion of legal matters for the company.

Graduates working as “temporaries” through a legal temporary employment agency should be classified in the “Business and industry” category. A graduate employed by a temporary employment agency but not one specifically making legal placements should also be reported as employed in “Business and industry.”

[Emphasis added]

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GeePee
Posts: 1273
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:35 pm

Re: ABA To Collect More Detailed Employment Data?

Postby GeePee » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:58 am

observationalist wrote:
GeePee wrote:We'll see how bluntly the ABA names these categories and how transparently the numbers are presented. But this is definitely a step in the right direction.


Here's what we know so far about some of the categories ... we still have to evaluate how the data will be presented to applicants or whether some of it will remain hidden. But so far it looks good. NOTE: the temp agency distinction is already required but there has been little oversight and we suspect schools have in the past been counting temp attorneys as employed in private practice. Also, this only clarifies how schools should report graduate outcomes to the ABA; new rules dictating how schools must present outcomes to applicants have not been finalized yet. In many ways the rules on presentation are going to be more important in making sure applicants can both access and understand the data. -obs

DEFINITIONS
EMPLOYMENT STATUS

Short-term. A short-term position is one that has a definite term of less than one year. Thus, a clerkship that has a definite term of one year or more is not a short-term position. In addition, a position that is envisioned by the graduate and the employer to extend for one year or more is not a short-term position even though it is conditioned on bar licensure. Thus, a long-term position that is conditioned on passing the bar exam by a certain date does not become a short-term position because of the condition.

Long-term. A long-term position is one that does not have a definite term of less than one year. It may have a definite length of time as long as the time is longer than one year. It may also have an indefinite length but is expected to last more than one year. Just because a short-term position may evolve into a long-term position does not make the position a long-term position. An example or a long-term position is an associate in a law firm.

...

6) Law school funded. A job is law school funded if the law school or the university of which it is a part pays the salary of the graduate directly or indirectly and in any amount. Thus, a person employed in the law library has a law school funded position. Similarly, if the position is in the university’s library, the position is law school funded. The position may be either a long-term position or a short-term position. Thus, a graduate may be hired in a permanent position in the university’s office of legal counsel and that position will be a long-term position because it does not have a definite term of less than one year. However, a graduate whose position is less than one year is in a short-term position. Thus, a graduate hired as a seasonal recruiter by the law school’s admission office is in a short-term position. The position is funded directly if the graduate is on the payroll of the law school or the university. The position is funded indirectly if the law school or the university funds another entity in any way to pay the salary. The position is funded indirectly if it is paid through funds solicited by an outside donor. Thus, a graduate employed in the law library and whose salary is paid by the law school is funded directly by the law school. A graduate who is employed by a legal services office whose position is funded in any amount by the law school is funded indirectly by the law school.

* Since the information to answer this question is inherently available to the law school, the burden of answering this question is on the law school and does not depend on the answer that the graduate may provide in any employment survey. Accordingly, either a “yes” or “no” must be checked; there is no unknown category.


EMPLOYMENT TYPE

1. Law Firms. Law firms include firms specializing in any area of the law, including those specializing in public interest law. Any job in a law firm, including associate, law clerk, law firm librarian, paralegal, and clerical position is to be reported here. ...
Note that graduates working on a contract basis and hired directly by the firm should also be reported here. However, graduates employed at a law firm through an agency which places attorneys in temporary positions should be reported under – Business and Industry.
...

16) Business and Industry. Business and industry employers include legal temporary agencies, accounting firms, investment banking and financial institutions, entertainment/sports management companies, insurance companies, management consulting firms, publishing houses, technology/e-commerce companies, trade associations, political campaigns, etc.

Business and industry positions include temporary attorney work, temporary law clerk or paralegal work, in-house counsel, management, business development/sales/marketing, human resources, consulting, etc.

In-house positions are defined as attorney positions within the law or legal department of a company and reporting to the office of general counsel or associate general counsel; the law department handles some portion of legal matters for the company.

Graduates working as “temporaries” through a legal temporary employment agency should be classified in the “Business and industry” category. A graduate employed by a temporary employment agency but not one specifically making legal placements should also be reported as employed in “Business and industry.”

[Emphasis added]

Thanks, obs. I knew you'd probably find this thread in fairly short order.




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