Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

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Transferthrowaway
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:34 pm

Don't involve the authorities. Dish out some street justice; a kneecap should do quite nicely.
Last edited by Transferthrowaway on Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:36 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:I think people are being fairly harsh with OP (assuming OP is being genuine, but I get the sense he/she is). Granted, I think it is probably not something that OP needs to worry about, but ignoring unethical behavior isn't always the right approach. Will reporting ethical breaches make a person popular? No, probably to the contrary. But at a certain point taking a popularity hit for the sake of holding someone accountable is credited IMO. This is probably not at that point, however.

Some of the vitriol directed at OP is really is really over the top IMO, regardless of whether OP would in error in this particular instance by reporting.



I hope you are not trolling OP, but regardless, I find some of the rhetoric in this thread pretty concerning.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:39 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:I think people are being fairly harsh with OP (assuming OP is being genuine, but I get the sense he/she is). Granted, I think it is probably not something that OP needs to worry about, but ignoring unethical behavior isn't always the right approach. Will reporting ethical breaches make a person popular? No, probably to the contrary. But at a certain point taking a popularity hit for the sake of holding someone accountable is credited IMO. This is probably not at that point, however.

Some of the vitriol directed at OP is really is really over the top IMO, regardless of whether OP would in error in this particular instance by reporting.



I hope you are not trolling OP, but regardless, I find some of the rhetoric in this thread pretty concerning.


1. OP has a history of being a crappy poster.

2. OP should mind his damn business. Even in a world where conscience and character is encouraged, you'll find that reporting people or suggesting that you will report people for every single minor misstep will gain you more enemies than friends.

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Cavalier
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Cavalier » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:41 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Really guys, you are treating OP outrageously. I feel like I am in a forum for drug-dealers rather than future lawyers (though I'm sure the groups do have cross-over in any case lol). But I am scared to think of the poor ethical standards and assumptions that some bring into the legal profession. But, again, I am not at all saying that OP should report, but I am saying that OP deserves respect and this is not an outrageous inquiry IMO.

No, our treatment of OP is not outrageous. If I overhear a summer associate at Smith & Jones bragging about how he is using his firm's resources to print job applications for 3L OCI, reporting him to Smith & Jones would be an absurd response. Yes, his conduct is unethical, and yes, other people are probably spending a few dollars to print their own job applications at home or at a printing shop, but this is clearly conduct that is so trivial that reporting it would just be silly. The same is true for the use of WestLaw for work purposes. None of us are perfect human beings, and a world that tolerates our nearly-harmless unethical conduct is far preferable to a world where every de minimus violation is reported.

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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby 071816 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:51 pm

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RCRARollin
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby RCRARollin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:12 pm

The fact that he even posted this question is laughable. The majority of those who are not socially awkward (who understand that people are not perfect and the relatively minor magnitude of this) would not have even had this thought cross their mind. The fact that OP is not confident about his own gut instinct makes me feel like there is some hope for him. Yet, his failure to understand the ridiculousness throughout his later posts leads me to believe that he is not someone I would want to associate with in any setting.

If I were a student at Fordham and knew who you are, I would avoid you socially but laugh about you to my friends.

If I was a potential employer and knew about this, I would not hire you because your instincts lead you down paths that are not conducive to a productive, cooperative workplace.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby RMstratosphere » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:19 pm

thesealocust wrote:Shit like this? Shit like this is why we can't have nice things, law student / TLS population.

OP: I hope that a disproportionate share of the world's immense sorrow befalls you.


+1

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vanwinkle
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:20 pm

RCRARollin wrote:The fact that he even posted this question is laughable. The majority of those who are not socially awkward (who understand that people are not perfect and the relatively minor magnitude of this) would not have even had this thought cross their mind. The fact that OP is not confident about his own gut instinct makes me feel like there is some hope for him. Yet, his failure to understand the ridiculousness throughout his later posts leads me to believe that he is not someone I would want to associate with in any setting.

Come on. You could give him the benefit of the doubt.

He could just be trolling.

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Bless
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Bless » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:23 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:There's this girl in an interschool club that my school competes/practices with. She mentioned how she works for a firm and they sometimes ask her to do research on her school westlaw account. Should I report her to her school's westlaw rep? Or even to westlaw?

I think it's very unethical for her to make money off of this/for the firm to make money off of this. Many of us attend seminars to improve our research skills, while others are "recklessly" researching on westlaw's dime/the school's dime. I think this would be a good test of professionalism but am I letting down the profession by not reporting her?

You are a disgrace to The Bronx. My dad's street gang from the 1960s will read this and have a panic attack.

schooner
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby schooner » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:24 pm

Bronx Bum wrote:There's this girl in an interschool club that my school competes/practices with. She mentioned how she works for a firm and they sometimes ask her to do research on her school westlaw account. Should I report her to her school's westlaw rep? Or even to westlaw?

I think it's very unethical for her to make money off of this/for the firm to make money off of this. Many of us attend seminars to improve our research skills, while others are "recklessly" researching on westlaw's dime/the school's dime. I think this would be a good test of professionalism but am I letting down the profession by not reporting her?


If this bothers you because it offends your ethical sensibilities, maybe you should confront her directly first and tell her to stop it. You can also advise her to stand up to her firm and refuse to violate the school's agreement w/ westlaw. It would allow you to balance your concerns about professionalism/ethics with the other concerns listed in this thread (i.e., don't be a douche who needs better things to do with his energy).

I don't think you need to, or should, do more than this by escalating the situation up as high as you suggest. Besides, are you sure she knows that she's violating the agreement? I know ignorance is not a good defense, but sometimes ignorant first-time offenders get a pass.

uvahooo
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby uvahooo » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:25 pm

this is funny. OP is screwed up.

RCRARollin
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby RCRARollin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:28 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
RCRARollin wrote:The fact that he even posted this question is laughable. The majority of those who are not socially awkward (who understand that people are not perfect and the relatively minor magnitude of this) would not have even had this thought cross their mind. The fact that OP is not confident about his own gut instinct makes me feel like there is some hope for him. Yet, his failure to understand the ridiculousness throughout his later posts leads me to believe that he is not someone I would want to associate with in any setting.

Come on. You could give him the benefit of the doubt.

He could just be trolling.


Fair enough. However, coming up with a troll like this requires the douchey thought to have crossed your mind at some point. I would rather this be a serious question where the poster sees his shortcomings as a human being and has a chance of becoming normal. If he is just a troll, he is even lower on the totem-pole IMO.

RCRARollin
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby RCRARollin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:29 pm

schooner wrote:
Bronx Bum wrote:There's this girl in an interschool club that my school competes/practices with. She mentioned how she works for a firm and they sometimes ask her to do research on her school westlaw account. Should I report her to her school's westlaw rep? Or even to westlaw?

I think it's very unethical for her to make money off of this/for the firm to make money off of this. Many of us attend seminars to improve our research skills, while others are "recklessly" researching on westlaw's dime/the school's dime. I think this would be a good test of professionalism but am I letting down the profession by not reporting her?


If this bothers you because it offends your ethical sensibilities, maybe you should confront her directly first and tell her to stop it. You can also advise her to stand up to her firm and refuse to violate the school's agreement w/ westlaw. It would allow you to balance your concerns about professionalism/ethics with the other concerns listed in this thread (i.e., don't be a douche who needs better things to do with his energy).

I don't think you need to, or should, do more than this by escalating the situation up as high as you suggest. Besides, are you sure she knows that she's violating the agreement? I know ignorance is not a good defense, but sometimes ignorant first-time offenders get a pass.


Probably the most productive response so far. . .

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Lawquacious
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:47 pm

Cavalier wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Really guys, you are treating OP outrageously. I feel like I am in a forum for drug-dealers rather than future lawyers (though I'm sure the groups do have cross-over in any case lol). But I am scared to think of the poor ethical standards and assumptions that some bring into the legal profession. But, again, I am not at all saying that OP should report, but I am saying that OP deserves respect and this is not an outrageous inquiry IMO.

No, our treatment of OP is not outrageous. If I overhear a summer associate at Smith & Jones bragging about how he is using his firm's resources to print job applications for 3L OCI, reporting him to Smith & Jones would be an absurd response. Yes, his conduct is unethical, and yes, other people are probably spending a few dollars to print their own job applications at home or at a printing shop, but this is clearly conduct that is so trivial that reporting it would just be silly. The same is true for the use of WestLaw for work purposes. None of us are perfect human beings, and a world that tolerates our nearly-harmless unethical conduct is far preferable to a world where every de minimus violation is reported.


I don't really disagree with you on this, and I probably should have qualified what I said as 'I feel outraged' (rather than asserting it as a fact that the comments are outrageous). I do think reporting petty matters unnecessarily can be a problem, and that in general people should mind their own business (unless intervention is imperative for some reason--such as a job responsibility or other ethical mandate). I think my reaction was mainly to some of the rhetoric more than anything else.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:51 pm

1. Stop saying rhetoric. Who says that?

2. This:
My dad's street gang from the 1960s will read this and have a panic attack.
is pretty douchey. Maybe I'm being harsh...it's just an odd thing to say.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AreJay711
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:53 pm

Am I the only one that thinks the OP should report her? Worst case scenario, her westlaw subscription is cut off for the summer and she receives a warning (I guess) and there is a huge positive -- everyone would know what a douche the OP is. We live in a world of imperfect information and just looking at the OP it might be hard to tell that about him. Acting in a douchey way however would signal to everyone else how he really is and hopefully they act accordingly. It is really a win-win.

boaltrising3l
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby boaltrising3l » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:04 pm

Outside of Biglaw, a lot of the small-firm job market is created by being able to exploit free student Westlaw accounts. If this policy were strictly enforced, there would be very little private sector externship opportunity for students like yourselves. The market is tough enough as it is, don't be a dick and make it tougher.

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:18 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the OP should report her? Worst case scenario, her westlaw subscription is cut off for the summer and she receives a warning (I guess) and there is a huge positive -- everyone would know what a douche the OP is. We live in a world of imperfect information and just looking at the OP it might be hard to tell that about him. Acting in a douchey way however would signal to everyone else how he really is and hopefully they act accordingly. It is really a win-win.


lol.

Not that I expect this to happen, but if you knew of someone cheating (let's say in LRW) would you report them? I never thought about reporting people in UG that cheated on assignments/exams, but I think I'd probably have to do it for law school.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Blessedassurance » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:23 pm

Bum wrote:There's this girl in an interschool club that my school competes/practices with. She mentioned how she works for a firm and they sometimes ask her to do research on her school westlaw account. Should I report her to her school's westlaw rep? Or even to westlaw?

I think it's very unethical for her to make money off of this/for the firm to make money off of this. Many of us attend seminars to improve our research skills, while others are "recklessly" researching on westlaw's dime/the school's dime. I think this would be a good test of professionalism but am I letting down the profession by not reporting her?


What are you, 12?

Aqualibrium
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:29 pm

TheFutureLawyer wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the OP should report her? Worst case scenario, her westlaw subscription is cut off for the summer and she receives a warning (I guess) and there is a huge positive -- everyone would know what a douche the OP is. We live in a world of imperfect information and just looking at the OP it might be hard to tell that about him. Acting in a douchey way however would signal to everyone else how he really is and hopefully they act accordingly. It is really a win-win.


lol.

Not that I expect this to happen, but if you knew of someone cheating (let's say in LRW) would you report them? I never thought about reporting people in UG that cheated on assignments/exams, but I think I'd probably have to do it for law school.


I'm sure people cheat on exams in law school. I'm also sure that those people have very little net effect on my outcome if they come in so unprepared that they have to cheat. Unless it was something blatantly obvious and egregious happening right in front of me, I wouldn't waste my time reporting it.

LRW is a bit of a different story because help from an upperclassman really can swing what ends up being a very tightly curved class pretty drastically. I don't think that understanding would be enough for me to care enough to report people though; When I was a 1L, I'm almost certain I saw fellow 1L's getting help on their open memo's and briefs at random coffee shops etc... around town. It bugged me, but I didn't feel compelled to report them. In the end, LRW accounts for my worst grade in law school. I probably would have been more competitive if those people I saw didnt have help, but I also should have put a lot more work in on my lrw assignments. I'm not at all bitter about the potential cheaters or the effect the help they got may have had on my grades, and, in the end, I've gotten every job I could possibly have wanted despite the poor lrw grade. It all works out in the end...

jdhonest
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby jdhonest » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:47 pm

while OP appears to be something of a d-bag, most posters are ignoring that the Westlaw Rangler might also be a d-bag worthy of fucking over. After all, it does take one to know one...

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Lawquacious
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:50 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:1. OP has a history of being a crappy poster.


I wasn't aware that the OP may have a questionable post history. I do feel fairly confident that OP is a troll at this point, but I think part of the frustration with trolls is there is often no way of knowing with 100% certainty.

I really wasn't thinking previously about the fact that the person could lose the SA over this if reported. Someone losing a job over this would be vastly disproportionate to any value that could possibly come out of reporting IMO.


Aqualibrium wrote:1. Stop saying rhetoric. Who says that?


As far as I know it is used commonly, particularly in the context of heated or very critical speech. But it is really beside the point IMO. I do feel some of the speech and comments toward OP ITT have been shockingly strong, but I think I do understand better where it is coming from since it could potentially cost someone an SA. And I think the strong reaction is what OP was looking for in any case unfortunately.

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soj
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby soj » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:03 pm

saw bronx bum op, remembered his fordham threads, ran the fuck in here

AreJay711 wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the OP should report her? Worst case scenario, her westlaw subscription is cut off for the summer and she receives a warning (I guess) and there is a huge positive -- everyone would know what a douche the OP is. We live in a world of imperfect information and just looking at the OP it might be hard to tell that about him. Acting in a douchey way however would signal to everyone else how he really is and hopefully they act accordingly. It is really a win-win.

:lol:

schooner
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby schooner » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:25 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Am I the only one that thinks the OP should report her? Worst case scenario, her westlaw subscription is cut off for the summer and she receives a warning (I guess) and there is a huge positive -- everyone would know what a douche the OP is. We live in a world of imperfect information and just looking at the OP it might be hard to tell that about him. Acting in a douchey way however would signal to everyone else how he really is and hopefully they act accordingly. It is really a win-win.


The worst case scenario is that the girl gets fired for getting her law firm in trouble or gets disciplined by her school for violating the school's honor code, adversely affecting her future employment. I see where the OP is coming from -- she shouldn't be doing what she's doing -- but she doesn't deserve to have her life ruined over this.

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KevinP
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Re: Report girl for using her westlaw for work purposes?

Postby KevinP » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:36 pm

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Last edited by KevinP on Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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