Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:00 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:If OP means any firm in Miami, UF/UM (w/scholarship) would do nicely. FSU shouldn't be a factor and OP should only leave state to attend Vanderbilt+T14. You could argue Emory as well, but if the OP can get into Emory, OP would have a nice scholarship from UM and/or UF.

As stated above, any NYC schools outside the T14 aren't worth it.


TITCR

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Grizz
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby Grizz » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:04 am

Kendi wrote:
GatorStudent wrote:I was honestly surprised that UM does decently in its home market...


Back when I was thoroughly researching BigLaw I noticed numerous firms had offices in Miami. I checked their web sites and saw that many of their associates were UM grads. I never learned what the pay scale was but I figured it was less than the $160K everyone always mentions. On the other hand, with no state tax or NYC tax, $125K here is better than $160K up north.

While UM offered scholarship $, it was a bit disappointing since it it wasn’t much more than the T•10 schools, BUT, the COL here is far less compared to the big northern cities. The other big plus is that Miamians love UM.


They don't love UM grads more than people with FL ties who to T20ish schools. Womp womp. Barely anyone from UM gets Miami biglaw nowadays. The city isn't as parochial as you might think, and UM doesn't really "dominate" the market.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby WSJ_Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:02 pm

flexityflex86 wrote:on this note does UVA/Duke give an advantage over Michigan/Penn?


IBQO

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby Wade LeBosh » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:54 pm

rad law wrote:
Kendi wrote:
GatorStudent wrote:I was honestly surprised that UM does decently in its home market...


Back when I was thoroughly researching BigLaw I noticed numerous firms had offices in Miami. I checked their web sites and saw that many of their associates were UM grads. I never learned what the pay scale was but I figured it was less than the $160K everyone always mentions. On the other hand, with no state tax or NYC tax, $125K here is better than $160K up north.

While UM offered scholarship $, it was a bit disappointing since it it wasn’t much more than the T•10 schools, BUT, the COL here is far less compared to the big northern cities. The other big plus is that Miamians love UM.


They don't love UM grads more than people with FL ties who to T20ish schools. Womp womp. Barely anyone from UM gets Miami biglaw nowadays. The city isn't as parochial as you might think, and UM doesn't really "dominate" the market.


This.
People vastly overestimate the placement power of UM Law in Miami. Miami has a relatively small legal market (compared to NY, DC, SF, LA and even ATL). A fair amount of T14ers want Miami BigLaw for obvious reasons and they have their pick. The rest of the jobs fall to UF and other T1s. The UM Miller School of Medicine is big time, but many (most?) UM Law grads are struggling to say the least.

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby Wade LeBosh » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:26 am

Kendi wrote:
GatorStudent wrote:I was honestly surprised that UM does decently in its home market...


Back when I was thoroughly researching BigLaw I noticed numerous firms had offices in Miami. I checked their web sites and saw that many of their associates were UM grads.


This is indicative of nothing except that they used to hire some UM Law grads. The Miller School of Medicine is big time, but that prestige does NOT rub off on UM Law. They are seriously overrated when compared with the realities of their employment outlooks.

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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby GatorStudent » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:14 pm

Wade LeBosh wrote:This is indicative of nothing except that they used to hire some UM Law grads. The Miller School of Medicine is big time, but that prestige does NOT rub off on UM Law. They are seriously overrated when compared with the realities of their employment outlooks.


You're pushing it a little by saying that it indicates absolutely nothing--it's weak anecdotal evidence, but it's evidence nonetheless. Of course, without statistics, it means little. How doMiami's employment statistics look? Can anyone that goes to law school there chime in?

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby Wade LeBosh » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:33 am

GatorStudent wrote:
Wade LeBosh wrote:This is indicative of nothing except that they used to hire some UM Law grads. The Miller School of Medicine is big time, but that prestige does NOT rub off on UM Law. They are seriously overrated when compared with the realities of their employment outlooks.


You're pushing it a little by saying that it indicates absolutely nothing--it's weak anecdotal evidence, but it's evidence nonetheless. Of course, without statistics, it means little. How doMiami's employment statistics look? Can anyone that goes to law school there chime in?


You should re-read my post more closely, I wrote "indicative of nothing except they used to hire some law grads". That is different than indicative of "absolutely nothing".

This is the best I could come up with:

--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--

These are obviously old and incomplete surveys, but finding fully accurate employment data about most LS is difficult. Draw what conclusions you will from these numbers, but notice that a significantly lower percentage of grads reported from UM than UF. Perhaps the difference were so inundated with job offers they didn't have time to respond to the survey.

Let me redirect you to this link I posted earlier (perhaps you missed it):

http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com/2010/11/university-of-miami-law-school-pays.html

Why would they do this if they had even acceptable employment statistics?

This is another interesting article that talks about UM and quotes the dean towards the end:

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/start-your-whining-schools-make-excuses-for-their-poor-u-s-news-rankings/

UM probably has a better outlook than Stetson/FAU, but UF places better. But who knows, I'm certainly not saying it's impossible to get ANY job from UM. I'm not even saying it's unlikely. But getting BigLaw from UM should fall into the possible, but not probable category. The fact is, there is nothing that even resembles a guarantee of a reasonable shot and, frankly, no firm will give you extra consideration just because you're from UM. Logically, why would they? You would be competing for the few desirable Miami firm jobs there are against T14ers and UF alum. You would even be competing against Stetson/FAU/FIU/Emory grads that may have higher grades, but certainly have a higher-ranked school on their resume.

My point is that UM is not worth attending if you have the grades/scores to get into UF. The astronomical tuition and bleak prospects make it a strange choice for those with higher ranked options. My other point is those that believe UM will give you a shot at BigLaw are misinformed. A top GPA may get you an interview, but the school had nothing to do with it.

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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby GatorStudent » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:31 pm

Wade LeBosh wrote:You should re-read my post more closely, I wrote "indicative of nothing except they used to hire some law grads". That is different than indicative of "absolutely nothing".


Actually, it's not necessarily different, depending on how one interprets your comments. I thought your post meant that you were asserting that this only meant that they may have had some "clout" in the past, but this is the present and so is irrelevant today (or, alternatively, that the percentage was so low that again, it's irrelevant). I think that's a reasonable interpretation.


Wade LeBosh wrote:These are obviously old and incomplete surveys, but finding fully accurate employment data about most LS is difficult. Draw what conclusions you will from these numbers, but notice that a significantly lower percentage of grads reported from UM than UF. Perhaps the difference were so inundated with job offers they didn't have time to respond to the survey.


There is a difference in percentage of graduates reporting, but all of them, including UF, still have abysmally-low percentages of people reporting.

Having just graduated from UF, I can assure you that many people from UF are not inundated with job offers...they're lucky to be getting a job. It's bad out there!


Wade LeBosh wrote:Let me redirect you to this link I posted earlier (perhaps you missed it):

http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com/2010/11/university-of-miami-law-school-pays.html

Why would they do this if they had even acceptable employment statistics?


Interesting link, thanks. But just because someone would do something to cover up their employment statistics, and UF/others won't, doesn't mean that they're much better than the other school. However, I agree with you that for most people, UF is the better option.

Wade LeBosh wrote:My point is that UM is not worth attending if you have the grades/scores to get into UF. The astronomical tuition and bleak prospects make it a strange choice for those with higher ranked options. My other point is those that believe UM will give you a shot at BigLaw are misinformed. A top GPA may get you an interview, but the school had nothing to do with it.


As stated above, I think UF is the better option for most. But for some, it's a solid option. For example, if you get a good scholarship there (and by "good," I mean virtually free, with no contingencies), and you didn't at other schools, it may be a safe bet, if other factors are present. (Because, having applied to over 20 schools when I was a 0L, I can tell you that scholarship amounts aren't as predictable as people like to think.) For one, you may not care about biglaw. And you have ties there. And perhaps you have a family there.

My only point is that I think it's good for people to see on TLS that there are good reasons to go to a lower-ranked school over a higher-ranked school, in many circumstances. You have to look at it on a case-by-case basis.

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby Wade LeBosh » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:13 pm

GatorStudent wrote:
Wade LeBosh wrote:You should re-read my post more closely, I wrote "indicative of nothing except they used to hire some law grads". That is different than indicative of "absolutely nothing".


Actually, it's not necessarily different, depending on how one interprets your comments. I thought your post meant that you were asserting that this only meant that they may have had some "clout" in the past, but this is the present and so is irrelevant today (or, alternatively, that the percentage was so low that again, it's irrelevant). I think that's a reasonable interpretation.


What I wrote and how you are choosing to interpret my statement seem to be unrelated. Under no circumstance does what I wrote: "indicative of nothing except blah blah" = "indicative of absolutely nothing". I intentionally used the word "except". I never said that UM had clout in the past either. These are assumptions I did not make.

gatorlaw wrote:
There is a difference in percentage of graduates reporting, but all of them, including UF, still have abysmally-low percentages of people reporting.
Having just graduated from UF, I can assure you that many people from UF are not inundated with job offers...they're lucky to be getting a job. It's bad out there!


Obviously everyone's lucky to be getting a job, ITE. The UF graduates should feel glad they went to UF however, because their school has better placement than UM (I'm assuming we're talking about law grads).


Wade LeBosh wrote:Let me redirect you to this link I posted earlier (perhaps you missed it):

http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com/2010/11/university-of-miami-law-school-pays.html

Why would they do this if they had even acceptable employment statistics?


gatorlaw wrote:Interesting link, thanks. But just because someone would do something to cover up their employment statistics, and UF/others won't, doesn't mean that they're much better than the other school.


True, it just means UM probably has shitty employment statistics, which was my point.

Wade LeBosh wrote:My point is that UM is not worth attending if you have the grades/scores to get into UF. The astronomical tuition and bleak prospects make it a strange choice for those with higher ranked options. My other point is those that believe UM will give you a shot at BigLaw are misinformed. A top GPA may get you an interview, but the school had nothing to do with it.


gatorlaw wrote:As stated above, I think UF is the better option for most. But for some, it's a solid option. For example, if you get a good scholarship there (and by "good," I mean virtually free, with no contingencies), and you didn't at other schools, it may be a safe bet, if other factors are present. (Because, having applied to over 20 schools when I was a 0L, I can tell you that scholarship amounts aren't as predictable as people like to think.) For one, you may not care about biglaw. And you have ties there. And perhaps you have a family there.

My only point is that I think it's good for people to see on TLS that there are good reasons to go to a lower-ranked school over a higher-ranked school, in many circumstances. You have to look at it on a case-by-case basis.


UM is a fine school if you're taking very little debt and not banking on BigLaw. My problem is that people DO attend UM assuming BigLaw. I think we can both agree that is a huge mistake. I'm not saying UF grads have a rosy outlook either, they are in a better position to repay loans than UM grads though. I never said UM was a bad school or no one should go there, but I fail to see any advantage that UM grads have over UF grads. The common assertion that UM does well in regards to Miami BigLaw placement is at best completely unsubstantiated and at worst completely false.
/rant

EDIT: Messed up formatting.

GatorStudent
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Re: Law school in NYC ---> Working in Miami Beach

Postby GatorStudent » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:29 pm

Wade LeBosh wrote:
What I wrote and how you are choosing to interpret my statement seem to be unrelated. Under no circumstance does what I wrote: "indicative of nothing except blah blah" = "indicative of absolutely nothing". I intentionally used the word "except". I never said that UM had clout in the past either. These are assumptions I did not make.


They seem to be unrelated, except that people use language ambiguously all the time--including using the word "except."

For example, if someone tells you that murders increase with the amount of ice creams sales in any given month, most likely to show causation, you might remark, "That is indicative of nothing except a correlation." Now, technically, you can assert that you're not stating "absolutely nothing" (since you're admitting a correlation), but for purposes of the discussion at issue, it's "absolutely nothing"--since the person is trying to assert causation.

EDIT: I'm nitpicking because the bar exam is fast-approaching and it's more fun to do this than study. :D

Wade LeBosh wrote:Obviously everyone's lucky to be getting a job, ITE. The UF graduates should feel glad they went to UF however, because their school has better placement than UM (I'm assuming we're talking about law grads).


Agreed, and yes, only talking about law grads!

Wade LeBosh wrote:UM is a fine school if you're taking very little debt and not banking on BigLaw. My problem is that people DO attend UM assuming BigLaw. I think we can both agree that is a huge mistake. I'm not saying UF grads have a rosy outlook either, they are in a better position to repay loans than UM grads though. I never said UM was a bad school or no one should go there, but I fail to see any advantage that UM grads have over UF grads. This misconception that UM does "surprisingly well" in regards to Miami BigLaw placement is at best completely unsubstantiated and at worst completely false.

EDIT: Messed up formatting.


All of that is fair!




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