What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

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midwestrocks
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby midwestrocks » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:53 pm

Or, the classifieds. You know what jobs are in "business/industry"? Waiter, delivery driver, temp...


Lol you're right. I wasn't thinking.

MrAnon
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:57 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
Renzo wrote:
midwestrocks wrote:http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/21378.htm

They claim that 11% of graduates work in business/industry. I'm sure most of that group is making good money, but they probably relied on connections that the average law student doesn't have.


Or, the classifieds. You know what jobs are in "business/industry"? Waiter, delivery driver, temp...


+1



These are indeed in many cases non law jobs and non law jobs that part time people kept through school. none of the employment figures make any sense when you actually talk to people in classes and ask them what they are doing. I had a professor who was naive enough to ask a class informally what everyone was doing after graduation, did everyone have a job lined up? The question was met with silence and much hemming and hawing from people who had summer jobs that were not hiring them back or could not hire them back. Of course everyone agreed that getting job was tough and even LR people in recent years had trouble finding work. That consensus did not equate to jobs for anyone however. I do hear of people with jobs lined up but it sure seems like a minority of the class. The sad part is when you see a part time person who had a successful career but cannot find legal work. At least in those cases it is just a few lost years and dollars, but they do have something to go back to.

jreg
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby jreg » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:59 pm

FU class of 2011

Opportunities range. Our class got hit pretty hard, as C/O 2010 actually got no offered, we didn't even have a chance to collect that 30 gs. However, it allowed us to position ourselves 2L summer at an employer that may hire us. Still it has been very hard for our class. For every person i know with a job lined up I know another with nothing

From speaking with my friends I would say the break down is as follows for C/O 2011:
Biglaw: 12-18%
Midlaw: 2-4%
Small Law: 10-14%%
Gov: 6%
Fed Clerkships: 3%
State Appeals/Trial Clerkships: 5%
PI: 8%

I was not top 20% but landed a gig.
Op plz stop it (5) with your contradictory statements regarding Fordham.

Aqualibrium
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:06 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Renzo wrote:
midwestrocks wrote:http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/21378.htm

They claim that 11% of graduates work in business/industry. I'm sure most of that group is making good money, but they probably relied on connections that the average law student doesn't have.


Or, the classifieds. You know what jobs are in "business/industry"? Waiter, delivery driver, temp...


+1



These are indeed in many cases non law jobs and non law jobs that part time people kept through school. none of the employment figures make any sense when you actually talk to people in classes and ask them what they are doing. I had a professor who was naive enough to ask a class informally what everyone was doing after graduation, did everyone have a job lined up? The question was met with silence and much hemming and hawing from people who had summer jobs that were not hiring them back or could not hire them back. Of course everyone agreed that getting job was tough and even LR people in recent years had trouble finding work. That consensus did not equate to jobs for anyone however.


Yeah, I posted recently that if you talked to some graduating 3L's at most schools you'd get a much more depressing and jarring picture of the job hunt than any NY Times article could give you. For that I was accused of being a member of the sky is falling clan. Fact is, there are people on the ground living those articles.

MrAnon
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:09 pm

These are indeed in many cases non law jobs and non law jobs that part time people kept through school. none of the employment figures make any sense when you actually talk to people in classes and ask them what they are doing. I had a professor who was naive enough to ask a class informally what everyone was doing after graduation, did everyone have a job lined up? The question was met with silence and much hemming and hawing from people who had summer jobs that were not hiring them back or could not hire them back. Of course everyone agreed that getting job was tough and even LR people in recent years had trouble finding work. That consensus did not equate to jobs for anyone however.[/quote]

Yeah, I posted recently that if you talked to some graduating 3L's at most schools you'd get a much more depressing and jarring picture of the job hunt than any NY Times article could give you. For that I was accused of being a member of the sky is falling clan. Fact is, there are people on the ground living those articles.[/quote]


Yeah you are just being mister negative, bro. Law school gives you the tools, the rest is up to you! Of course if you slack you can't find a job!

Master Tofu
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Master Tofu » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:08 pm

MrAnon wrote:These are indeed in many cases non law jobs and non law jobs that part time people kept through school. none of the employment figures make any sense when you actually talk to people in classes and ask them what they are doing. I had a professor who was naive enough to ask a class informally what everyone was doing after graduation, did everyone have a job lined up? The question was met with silence and much hemming and hawing from people who had summer jobs that were not hiring them back or could not hire them back. Of course everyone agreed that getting job was tough and even LR people in recent years had trouble finding work. That consensus did not equate to jobs for anyone however.

Yeah, I posted recently that if you talked to some graduating 3L's at most schools you'd get a much more depressing and jarring picture of the job hunt than any NY Times article could give you. For that I was accused of being a member of the sky is falling clan. Fact is, there are people on the ground living those articles.


Yeah you are just being mister negative, bro. Law school gives you the tools, the rest is up to you! Of course if you slack you can't find a job!



I sense some sarcasm. Why are you of the opinion that law schools are in the business of guaranteeing jobs?
Last edited by Master Tofu on Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Borhas
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Borhas » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:08 pm

the same thing that happens to below median cornell grads

MrAnon
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:59 pm

Master Tofu wrote:
MrAnon wrote:These are indeed in many cases non law jobs and non law jobs that part time people kept through school. none of the employment figures make any sense when you actually talk to people in classes and ask them what they are doing. I had a professor who was naive enough to ask a class informally what everyone was doing after graduation, did everyone have a job lined up? The question was met with silence and much hemming and hawing from people who had summer jobs that were not hiring them back or could not hire them back. Of course everyone agreed that getting job was tough and even LR people in recent years had trouble finding work. That consensus did not equate to jobs for anyone however.

Yeah, I posted recently that if you talked to some graduating 3L's at most schools you'd get a much more depressing and jarring picture of the job hunt than any NY Times article could give you. For that I was accused of being a member of the sky is falling clan. Fact is, there are people on the ground living those articles.


Yeah you are just being mister negative, bro. Law school gives you the tools, the rest is up to you! Of course if you slack you can't find a job!



I sense some sarcasm. Why are you of the opinion that law schools are in the business of guaranteeing jobs?


Because they tell you what great things their graduates do. They show you salary statistics that seem to suggest many people find jobs and high paying ones. You hear about giant corporate firms visiting the school and how impressed those firms are with the graduates of the school. You hear about how the alumni of the school are in every large firm. Apparently everyone gets solid return on their investment. The last thing you would assume is that getting a job is difficult.

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Lawquacious
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:02 pm

Lol at how exaggerated (doom and gloom) this thread is. The idea that anyone below top 20% at Fordham is totally screwed is laughable. Even the idea that anyone outside of top 20% has absolutely no shot at biglaw is laughable (though obviously the lower the grades the more difficult, and I think outside of top 33% it may be impossible aside from diversity factors kicking in)...

MrAnon
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:18 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Lol at how exaggerated (doom and gloom) this thread is. The idea that anyone below top 20% at Fordham is totally screwed is laughable. Even the idea that anyone outside of top 20% has absolutely no shot at biglaw is laughable (though obviously the lower the grades the more difficult, and I think outside of top 33% it may be impossible aside from diversity factors kicking in)...


You go to Fordham? You have actual cases of people at 33% who got biglaw last year?

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Patriot1208
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:56 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Lol at how exaggerated (doom and gloom) this thread is. The idea that anyone below top 20% at Fordham is totally screwed is laughable. Even the idea that anyone outside of top 20% has absolutely no shot at biglaw is laughable (though obviously the lower the grades the more difficult, and I think outside of top 33% it may be impossible aside from diversity factors kicking in)...


You go to Fordham? You have actual cases of people at 33% who got biglaw last year?

I'm sure he does, that doesn't mean 33% of the class got biglaw

Real Madrid
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Real Madrid » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:29 pm

Borhas wrote:the same thing that happens to below median cornell grads


Meaning some of them get Big Law?

sharklasers
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby sharklasers » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:17 pm

Why are we still talking about these lepers?

If anyone thinks <80% at Fordham do anything but eat shit and die, by which I mean doc review in a basement factory setting if they're lucky, that person is smoking bath salts. Because not only is that person stupid, he or she is trashy as fuck.

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Bronx Bum
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Bronx Bum » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:06 am

sharklasers wrote:Why are we still talking about these lepers?

If anyone thinks <80% at Fordham do anything but eat shit and die, by which I mean doc review in a basement factory setting if they're lucky, that person is smoking bath salts. Because not only is that person stupid, he or she is trashy as fuck.

rude

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sach1282
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby sach1282 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:03 am

Damn Aqualibrium.... lol

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Noval
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Noval » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:46 am

Anything below 20%, something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZXNMs8D ... re=related

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reasonable_man
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:50 am

midwestrocks wrote:Look at lawschooltransparency. Over half of the Class of 2009 is making six figures. The bottom 1/3 is royally screwed if they paid sticker though.


Wow.. This is actually a LMAO post. Well done. 180!

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monarchylover
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:16 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
midwestrocks wrote:Look at lawschooltransparency. Over half of the Class of 2009 is making six figures. The bottom 1/3 is royally screwed if they paid sticker though.


Wow.. This is actually a LMAO post. Well done. 180!


I know prelaw people are fucking retards when it comes to math but really people aren't some of us x premeds who took higher math, physics o and p chem? Yes if you look at law school transparency out of the quartiles that represent the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries 2(the top 25% and middle 50%) of the quartiles are greater than $145,000. This means that 75% of the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries or 238.5 graduates reported making above $145,000 which means 238.5/470 or 50.7% of that graduating class is reporting a salary at or above $145,000

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dr123
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby dr123 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:23 pm

monarchylover wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
midwestrocks wrote:Look at lawschooltransparency. Over half of the Class of 2009 is making six figures. The bottom 1/3 is royally screwed if they paid sticker though.


Wow.. This is actually a LMAO post. Well done. 180!


I know prelaw people are fucking retards when it comes to math but really people aren't some of us x premeds who took higher math, physics o and p chem? Yes if you look at law school transparency out of the quartiles that represent the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries 2(the top 25% and middle 50%) of the quartiles are greater than $145,000. This means that 75% of the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries or 238.5 graduates reported making above $145,000 which means 238.5/470 or 50.7% of that graduating class is reporting a salary at or above $145,000


Wait are you bragging about no being able to cut it in pre med?

Renzo
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby Renzo » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:24 pm

sharklasers wrote:
chimp wrote:--ImageRemoved--


Nah, this isn't a Fordham grad. This dude just graduated bottom half at NYU. You can tell because he has shoes.


Fuck, judging by those shoes and pants, he's a current undergrad at NYU.

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monarchylover
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby monarchylover » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:26 pm

dr123 wrote:
monarchylover wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
midwestrocks wrote:Look at lawschooltransparency. Over half of the Class of 2009 is making six figures. The bottom 1/3 is royally screwed if they paid sticker though.


Wow.. This is actually a LMAO post. Well done. 180!


I know prelaw people are fucking retards when it comes to math but really people aren't some of us x premeds who took higher math, physics o and p chem? Yes if you look at law school transparency out of the quartiles that represent the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries 2(the top 25% and middle 50%) of the quartiles are greater than $145,000. This means that 75% of the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries or 238.5 graduates reported making above $145,000 which means 238.5/470 or 50.7% of that graduating class is reporting a salary at or above $145,000


Wait are you bragging about no being able to cut it in pre med?


No I was a failed actor first so this "law school gamble" is a little humorous for my risk appetite

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observationalist
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby observationalist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:12 pm

monarchylover wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
midwestrocks wrote:Look at lawschooltransparency. Over half of the Class of 2009 is making six figures. The bottom 1/3 is royally screwed if they paid sticker though.


Wow.. This is actually a LMAO post. Well done. 180!


I know prelaw people are fucking retards when it comes to math but really people aren't some of us x premeds who took higher math, physics o and p chem? Yes if you look at law school transparency out of the quartiles that represent the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries 2(the top 25% and middle 50%) of the quartiles are greater than $145,000. This means that 75% of the 318 graduates who reported private sector salaries or 238.5 graduates reported making above $145,000 which means 238.5/470 or 50.7% of that graduating class is reporting a salary at or above $145,000


I don't think we do a good enough job on the website to clarify how outdated the Data Clearinghouse really is... the percentage of 2011 grads with offers from large law firms is at best half what it was in 2009. The Class of 2009 represented, for many law schools, the very best year in top-level hiring on record. For the following year firms cut hiring back as much as 50% for the Class of 2010, with another large drop for the Class of 2011. The problem is that we don't get to see that data, at least not yet. The best you can do to gauge how Fordham placed in 2010 is to look at the school's website. According to the NLJ250 list the school dropped from having 43.7% 2008 grads to just 25% for 2010, but crunching Fordham's own numbers raises some issues with the 25% claim.

Making a few assumptions due to the ambiguity in their presentation, Fordham's website indicats that just 22.2% of the Class of 2010 ended up in large law firms and just 10.5% of the class (47.1% of 47.6% of 50.5% of 93.1% of 99%) had begun working at those firms before their loans entered repayment six months after graduation. Over half of that 22.2% had their start dates deferred or did not report a start date at all, and at least 3% of the class who are included in that group had not started by the reporting deadline and for all we know may never have actually started at their firm. I don't have the Art III clerkship placements in front of me but based on previous years, perhaps another 3% found Art III clerkships which usually grouped with large law firm gigs in terms of competitiveness.

As far as everyone below the top 25% or so who found either a large law firm gig or an Art III clerkship in 2010, you again need to start calculating percentages of percentages of percentages. Notable is that 13.5% of all 2010 grads were working in temporary placements funded by the law school (likely everyone listed under Public Interest and a few more listed as having Clerkships or Government positions).

We are trying in earnest to convince law schools that they need to explain these hiring statistics in a way that adequately informs the consumer. It is good to see Fordham disclosing the percentage (albeit of a percentage of a percentage) of graduates who were funded directly by the school and doing the same thing for deferrals, but I would wager that very few Fordham applicants interpret the data in the way I just did above. It is much more common to focus on the 50.5% employed in private practice and think you can land in the top half of the class. Disclosing a full employer list showing exactly what everyone reported doing (like UNH did this year here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=126084&start=75#p4215515) is well within the school's ability. It would go a long way towards avoiding accusations that the school isn't really concerned about informing its applicants.

Keep in mind that for most law schools the Class of 2011 fared worse than 2010. Fordham's office already knows how many graduates ended up with large law firm offers for the Class of 2011 given how early those offers are received, so I encourage anyone considering the school to contact them and ask for that data. And in a few months (once you start receiving acceptances), you can also start asking schools how many Class of 2012 graduates received permanent offers post-2L summer. Until the ABA Section of Legal Education makes more drastic changes to the disclosure requirements there is unfortunately no other way to get that information other than asking the schools directly and trying to leverage your acceptances. G'luck.

Sources:
http://law.fordham.edu/career-planning/21378.htm
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108517
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

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minnbills
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby minnbills » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:53 pm

midwestrocks wrote:
Or, the classifieds. You know what jobs are in "business/industry"? Waiter, delivery driver, temp...


Lol you're right. I wasn't thinking.


I don't doubt that this is true for the most part but there are legit law jobs in business, like compliance. Some corporations will bring people in-house right away as well, like Cargill here in MN.

EDIT: These are jobs open to new grads as well.

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minnbills
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby minnbills » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:57 pm

Wait I thought people started getting no-offered in 2009? That the worst was 2010, and it got a bit (little, little bit) better in 2011?

Also, does anyone know when LST is updating for 2010?

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AreJay711
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Re: What happens to people who finish below top 20% at Fordham?

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:13 pm

I actually think TLS really downplays people's chances out of these schools. Obviously we all want to be sucessful and have enough money to buy the things we want without worrying about money and these people are in that position; however, they aren't on the street and I bet that those that are unemployed after 9 months are unemployed because they are holding out for good / legal jobs. I'm not saying that TLS is wrong about the probability of desirable work (the kind that brought you to law school) nor am I saying that it is wrong about the "is law school worth it?" question but I do think TLS is wrong about how bad the bad-case scenarios are. LST numbers can even be misleadingly negative because some of those people unemployed could have gotten non-legal jobs that pay the bills (with IBR) even though no one would consider those jobs "successful outcomes."

Maybe TLS's pessimism is good in the sense that it scares people that shouldn't go to law school but would have if they had gotten a more realistic picture though.




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