So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

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firemed
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby firemed » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:55 pm

kwais wrote:
MTal wrote:
It's precisely because of that prestige-whore "I'm too smart for blue collar jobs" attitude that most posters here are destined for a life of fail.


Because I'm interested in something a little more intellectually stimulating that retail, I'm a prestige-whore? lol. you live a sad life bro.


I have an incredibly prestigious blue collar job. I am actually going way down on the prestige scale by becoming a lawyer.

sidhesadie
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby sidhesadie » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:45 pm

MTal wrote:
pjo wrote:
MTal wrote:
kwais wrote:
Because I'm interested in something a little more intellectually stimulating that retail, I'm a prestige-whore? lol. you live a sad life bro.


You think the practice of law is intellectual? LOL, law is a BUSINESS. 90 % of mostl legal work is nothing more than proofreading, double checking, rubber stamping, i dotting and t crossing BULLSHIT. Just ask any Doc reviewer, personal injury, or real estate attorney how much "intellect" is involved in their day to day affairs. The primary job of any attorney is to generate BUSINESS via getting more clients. If you can't get clients then you are worthless, no matter how many rules and regs you can remember off the top of your head. Managing people, on the other hand, requires a high degree of intellect via coaching, motivating, and general people skills. I will put a district manager's intellect up against a run of the mill shitlaw attorney any day of the week.


For every menial legal job there is a menial counterpart in management. Maybe not an even split, but if you think every job in management is intellectually stimulating, you're sadly mistaken. Really every profession has it's sophisticated aspects and it's menial/repetitive aspects. It just depends where you fall on the scale. Some engineers are involved in really interesting projects; others (many of whom I've spoken with) hate their jobs because of the complete lack of substance and innovation. Same with accountants, teachers, nurses etc. It just sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder in regard to the legal practice.


I agree all professions have their menial aspects, but law is the worst of the worst. Most attorneys hate their jobs, high rates of of alcoholism/substance abuse/divorces abound. As for your previous post, all the negatives going on with the economy currently are accentuated by gong to law school Law has more graduates than it has jobs, more out of work experienced attorneys competing for those jobs, and a projected long term decline of the demand for the actual types of services lawyers provide.


My ex husband is a lawyer (divorce was unrelated to his business, lol), all our friends are/were lawyers, and NONE of them hate being a lawyer. I would go so far as to say most of them LOVE being lawyers.Everyone has bad days/ crappy clients, but that's not the same as hating being a lawyer. He's been a lawyer a long damn time and he STILL gets giddy when he wins a case, or writes a really good 'nastygram' to opposing counsel. He works 5 days a week, 8:30-5.
My dad was a store manager for a national grocery chain for my entire childhood. Yeah, he nearly as much money as my ex husband. He was an excellent manager, but he finally stepped down after 25 years because the nitpicking of district management had become an absurd level of pressure and stress that actually interfered with his ability to run the store and manage the employees. (the store gross revenue dropped considerably after he left and the new manager came in following district policies..)He also had a drinking problem due to the high stress nature of his job. He also worked 6-7 days a week, 12 hours a day minimum, more at inventory or during promotions. Retail store managers don't get to work monday through friday, they don't get off at 5. It's NOTHING like being a store associate or even an assistant manager,and if you think differently you're delusional about the expectations of retail management.

Just because YOU hate/would hate/know someone who hates being a lawyer doesn't mean that all lawyers hate their jobs.

Renzo
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby Renzo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:53 pm

firemed wrote:
kwais wrote:
MTal wrote:
It's precisely because of that prestige-whore "I'm too smart for blue collar jobs" attitude that most posters here are destined for a life of fail.


Because I'm interested in something a little more intellectually stimulating that retail, I'm a prestige-whore? lol. you live a sad life bro.


I have an incredibly prestigious blue collar job. I am actually going way down on the prestige scale by becoming a lawyer.

firemed wrote:
kwais wrote:
MTal wrote:
It's precisely because of that prestige-whore "I'm too smart for blue collar jobs" attitude that most posters here are destined for a life of fail.


Because I'm interested in something a little more intellectually stimulating that retail, I'm a prestige-whore? lol. you live a sad life bro.


I have an incredibly prestigious blue collar job. I am actually going way down on the prestige scale by becoming a lawyer.


I normally choke at the thought of agreeing with MTal, but on this point, you are both right.

You have had a real career, and I have plenty of respect for people that want to leave a real career for law school. It tells me you are a big kid and you can make an informed decision.

But, a very large percentage, maybe even a majority, of people headed to law school could probably have done better economically by not going. And the "but I really want to be a lawyer" line doesn't cut it for me from someone who's never been anything (like a K-JD). Lots of people head to law school out of fear of working a menial entry-level job, or out of a sense that they are entitled to more somehow. And I'd bet it's precisely these people that end up either a) on JDunderground, still acting entitled, or b) as angry and overstressed 4th year associates who hate their jobs.

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MTal
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby MTal » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:03 pm

sidhesadie wrote:
My ex husband is a lawyer (divorce was unrelated to his business, lol), all our friends are/were lawyers, and NONE of them hate being a lawyer. I would go so far as to say most of them LOVE being lawyers.Everyone has bad days/ crappy clients, but that's not the same as hating being a lawyer. He's been a lawyer a long damn time and he STILL gets giddy when he wins a case, or writes a really good 'nastygram' to opposing counsel. He works 5 days a week, 8:30-5.
My dad was a store manager for a national grocery chain for my entire childhood. Yeah, he nearly as much money as my ex husband. He was an excellent manager, but he finally stepped down after 25 years because the nitpicking of district management had become an absurd level of pressure and stress that actually interfered with his ability to run the store and manage the employees. (the store gross revenue dropped considerably after he left and the new manager came in following district policies..)He also had a drinking problem due to the high stress nature of his job. He also worked 6-7 days a week, 12 hours a day minimum, more at inventory or during promotions. Retail store managers don't get to work monday through friday, they don't get off at 5. It's NOTHING like being a store associate or even an assistant manager,and if you think differently you're delusional about the expectations of retail management.

Just because YOU hate/would hate/know someone who hates being a lawyer doesn't mean that all lawyers hate their jobs.


Ok so how do you explain the high rates of substance abuse/alcoholism/ and depression among lawyers? It's been confirmed in study after study that lawyers are afflicted by the above in much higher rates than other professionals. That's great that all the lawyers you know are happy, but the rest of the profession does not bear out that reality.

Renzo
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby Renzo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:18 pm

MTal wrote:
Ok so how do you explain the high rates of substance abuse/alcoholism/ and depression among lawyers? It's been confirmed in study after study that lawyers are afflicted by the above in much higher rates than other professionals. That's great that all the lawyers you know are happy, but the rest of the profession does not bear out that reality.


You assume unhappiness causes all those things. Maybe law attracts people prone to those diseases. Just sayin'

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dailygrind
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby dailygrind » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:29 pm

MTal wrote:Ok so how do you explain the high rates of substance abuse/alcoholism/ and depression among lawyers? It's been confirmed in study after study that lawyers are afflicted by the above in much higher rates than other professionals. That's great that all the lawyers you know are happy, but the rest of the profession does not bear out that reality.


There's probably a fair amount to be said for the idea that different types of lawyers have different outcomes and the study you're quoting is probably very broad (might be all lawyers, rather than "lawyers in big law," or whatever). Working for the government, for example, seems to be a pretty swank gig, and I think I'd probably enjoy that enough not to fall prone to substance abuse/alcoholism/depression. Hopefully I'll be getting back to you on whether or not the same is true of big law, though I suspect it's probably pretty brutal there.

sidhesadie
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby sidhesadie » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:44 pm

Renzo wrote:
MTal wrote:
Ok so how do you explain the high rates of substance abuse/alcoholism/ and depression among lawyers? It's been confirmed in study after study that lawyers are afflicted by the above in much higher rates than other professionals. That's great that all the lawyers you know are happy, but the rest of the profession does not bear out that reality.


You assume unhappiness causes all those things. Maybe law attracts people prone to those diseases. Just sayin'


This, plus I'm not sure what your evidence is that the rates for people in the legal field are so high. That's not borne out by statistics. According to the US Dept of Labor:


Illicit Drug Use
4.8% (legal)
8.2% (all occupations average)
Heavy Alcohol Use
5.9% (legal)
8.8% (all occupations average)
Illicit Drug Dependence or Abuse
0.3% (legal)
2.6% (all occupations average)
Alcohol Dependence or Abuse
8.1% (Legal)
9.2% (all occupations average)

For contrast, Management: (again, top number is management, bottom save averages as above)

Illicit Drug Use
6.1%
8.2%
Heavy Alcohol Use
7.9%
8.8%
Illicit Drug Dependence or Abuse
1.7%
2.6%
Alcohol Dependence or Abuse
8.7%
9.2%

If we want Retail specifically:

Illicit Drug Use
9.4%
8.2%
Heavy Alcohol Use
8.8%
8.8%
Illicit Drug Dependence or Abuse
3.1%
2.6%
Alcohol Dependence or Abuse
9.1%
9.2%


Stats are from dol dot gov, US dept of labor website.

sidhesadie
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby sidhesadie » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:48 pm

And, I do realize people can make statistics say what they want. Use a different measure, get a different statistic. My point is that there is no more evidence for your position than for any other, and extrapolating "biglaw jobs tend to suck" into "most lawyers hate their jobs and are lonely depressed drug addicts" is a pretty big reach. Further, the wondrous path of retail management you are so keen on is every bit as prone to all those addiction issues, all the long hours, and all the market realities of the legal field. Some people would certainly be better suited to a path other than law school, but your view of retail management seems to be as rose colored as the average TTT incoming 1L's view of the legal field.

dadamafia
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby dadamafia » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:54 pm

Have a working spouse/partner.

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Verity
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby Verity » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:23 pm

sidhesadie wrote:
Renzo wrote:
MTal wrote:
Ok so how do you explain the high rates of substance abuse/alcoholism/ and depression among lawyers? It's been confirmed in study after study that lawyers are afflicted by the above in much higher rates than other professionals. That's great that all the lawyers you know are happy, but the rest of the profession does not bear out that reality.


You assume unhappiness causes all those things. Maybe law attracts people prone to those diseases. Just sayin'


This, plus I'm not sure what your evidence is that the rates for people in the legal field are so high. That's not borne out by statistics. According to the US Dept of Labor:


Illicit Drug Use
4.8% (legal)
8.2% (all occupations average)
Heavy Alcohol Use
5.9% (legal)
8.8% (all occupations average)
Illicit Drug Dependence or Abuse
0.3% (legal)
2.6% (all occupations average)
Alcohol Dependence or Abuse
8.1% (Legal)
9.2% (all occupations average)

For contrast, Management: (again, top number is management, bottom save averages as above)

Illicit Drug Use
6.1%
8.2%
Heavy Alcohol Use
7.9%
8.8%
Illicit Drug Dependence or Abuse
1.7%
2.6%
Alcohol Dependence or Abuse
8.7%
9.2%

If we want Retail specifically:

Illicit Drug Use
9.4%
8.2%
Heavy Alcohol Use
8.8%
8.8%
Illicit Drug Dependence or Abuse
3.1%
2.6%
Alcohol Dependence or Abuse
9.1%
9.2%


Stats are from dol dot gov, US dept of labor website.


Damn. MTal got his dick chopped off with that one.

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AreJay711
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:04 am

Renzo wrote:
I normally choke at the thought of agreeing with MTal, but on this point, you are both right.

You have had a real career, and I have plenty of respect for people that want to leave a real career for law school. It tells me you are a big kid and you can make an informed decision.

But, a very large percentage, maybe even a majority, of people headed to law school could probably have done better economically by not going. And the "but I really want to be a lawyer" line doesn't cut it for me from someone who's never been anything (like a K-JD). Lots of people head to law school out of fear of working a menial entry-level job, or out of a sense that they are entitled to more somehow. And I'd bet it's precisely these people that end up either a) on JDunderground, still acting entitled, or b) as angry and overstressed 4th year associates who hate their jobs.


I'm not going to hate on the general sentiment of your post about people that go to law because they don't want to do jobs that they feel are beneath them but the I don't think that wanting to be a lawyer is that bad of a reason for choosing law over something financially better. I chose law school over my family's construction company (where I worked in the field for years) and unless I make partner it will probably be worse financially over the long run but besides all the populist bullshit, most blue collar jobs are just as repetitive, soul sucking, and boring as law except without the occasional something new... and for the most part they pay less.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby deadpoetnsp » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:18 am

MTal wrote:
sidhesadie wrote:
My ex husband is a lawyer (divorce was unrelated to his business, lol), all our friends are/were lawyers, and NONE of them hate being a lawyer. I would go so far as to say most of them LOVE being lawyers.Everyone has bad days/ crappy clients, but that's not the same as hating being a lawyer. He's been a lawyer a long damn time and he STILL gets giddy when he wins a case, or writes a really good 'nastygram' to opposing counsel. He works 5 days a week, 8:30-5.
My dad was a store manager for a national grocery chain for my entire childhood. Yeah, he nearly as much money as my ex husband. He was an excellent manager, but he finally stepped down after 25 years because the nitpicking of district management had become an absurd level of pressure and stress that actually interfered with his ability to run the store and manage the employees. (the store gross revenue dropped considerably after he left and the new manager came in following district policies..)He also had a drinking problem due to the high stress nature of his job. He also worked 6-7 days a week, 12 hours a day minimum, more at inventory or during promotions. Retail store managers don't get to work monday through friday, they don't get off at 5. It's NOTHING like being a store associate or even an assistant manager,and if you think differently you're delusional about the expectations of retail management.

Just because YOU hate/would hate/know someone who hates being a lawyer doesn't mean that all lawyers hate their jobs.


Ok so how do you explain the high rates of substance abuse/alcoholism/ and depression among lawyers? It's been confirmed in study after study that lawyers are afflicted by the above in much higher rates than other professionals. That's great that all the lawyers you know are happy, but the rest of the profession does not bear out that reality.


Correlation is not causation. If lawyers have high rates of alcoholism/depression/abuse, it does not necessarily imply that the legal profession caused those problems. It could also indicate that people who for other reasons tend to have high rates of alcoholism/depression/abuse also join the legal profession in high rates.

ohmylord
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby ohmylord » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:17 am

You know what's the worst part about coming to this forum sometimes? The general trolling and pessimistic attitudes some people have here about being a lawyer. Yeah, of course, there are expectations to have and expectations to get rid of, but by the sound of it, being a lawyer is a 100% death sentence.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:22 am

ohmylord wrote:You know what's the worst part about coming to this forum sometimes? The general trolling and pessimistic attitudes some people have here about being a lawyer. Yeah, of course, there are expectations to have and expectations to get rid of, but by the sound of it, being a lawyer is a 100% death sentence.


MTal doesn't speak for the rest of TLS. As some above poster said, for a guy who proclaims himself mature and knowledgable because of his experiences he sure doesn't know shit about the real world. I work at one of the more well known retail outlets in America (think Michael Kors, Coach, Burberry, etc.) and there are at least 10 applicants for every assistant management position that opens. Guy is clueless.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:24 am

Also, this.

Verity wrote:
sidhesadie wrote:Statistics proving MTal has zero fucking clue what he is talking about.


Damn. MTal got his dick chopped off with that one.

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mths
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby mths » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:29 am

Bildungsroman wrote:Even though the estimated budget from a school is for the 9 month academic year, you can probably make it stretch to the full twelve with careful planning. I've worked out my budget for the next year and it will allow me to live comfortably for the full 12 months.

ib bils realizes how expensive shithaca is

edit: and how much goes towards liquor

ohmylord
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby ohmylord » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:32 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
ohmylord wrote:You know what's the worst part about coming to this forum sometimes? The general trolling and pessimistic attitudes some people have here about being a lawyer. Yeah, of course, there are expectations to have and expectations to get rid of, but by the sound of it, being a lawyer is a 100% death sentence.


MTal doesn't speak for the rest of TLS. As some above poster said, for a guy who proclaims himself mature and knowledgable because of his experiences he sure doesn't know shit about the real world. I work at one of the more well known retail outlets in America (think Michael Kors, Coach, Burberry, etc.) and there are at least 10 applicants for every assistant management position that opens. Guy is clueless.

Well, if you're willing, I'm hoping you can answer a question of mine that's plaguing me currently.

I'm unable to find a summer job as most places wouldn't want to train someone for such a short period of time (even more true right now being July and most law schools starting in about a month) so my money is stretched incredibly thin. If I borrowed up to my cost of attendance, will that be money for things such as groceries and general living expenses? Sorry if the question sounds stupid, but sometimes things need a little clarifying for me.

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mths
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby mths » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:33 am

ohmylord wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:
ohmylord wrote:You know what's the worst part about coming to this forum sometimes? The general trolling and pessimistic attitudes some people have here about being a lawyer. Yeah, of course, there are expectations to have and expectations to get rid of, but by the sound of it, being a lawyer is a 100% death sentence.


MTal doesn't speak for the rest of TLS. As some above poster said, for a guy who proclaims himself mature and knowledgable because of his experiences he sure doesn't know shit about the real world. I work at one of the more well known retail outlets in America (think Michael Kors, Coach, Burberry, etc.) and there are at least 10 applicants for every assistant management position that opens. Guy is clueless.

Well, if you're willing, I'm hoping you can answer a question of mine that's plaguing me currently.

I'm unable to find a summer job as most places wouldn't want to train someone for such a short period of time (even more true right now being July and most law schools starting in about a month) so my money is stretched incredibly thin. If I borrowed up to my cost of attendance, will that be money for things such as groceries and general living expenses? Sorry if the question sounds stupid, but sometimes things need a little clarifying for me.

you borrow all living expenses

your school has a total cost of living estimate

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:36 am

ohmylord wrote:Well, if you're willing, I'm hoping you can answer a question of mine that's plaguing me currently.

I'm unable to find a summer job as most places wouldn't want to train someone for such a short period of time (even more true right now being July and most law schools starting in about a month) so my money is stretched incredibly thin. If I borrowed up to my cost of attendance, will that be money for things such as groceries and general living expenses? Sorry if the question sounds stupid, but sometimes things need a little clarifying for me.


I've found the COA estimates that schools give out are pretty generous, even if they are to be stretched out for 12 months. Are you starting in August?

ohmylord
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby ohmylord » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:40 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
ohmylord wrote:Well, if you're willing, I'm hoping you can answer a question of mine that's plaguing me currently.

I'm unable to find a summer job as most places wouldn't want to train someone for such a short period of time (even more true right now being July and most law schools starting in about a month) so my money is stretched incredibly thin. If I borrowed up to my cost of attendance, will that be money for things such as groceries and general living expenses? Sorry if the question sounds stupid, but sometimes things need a little clarifying for me.


I've found the COA estimates that schools give out are pretty generous, even if they are to be stretched out for 12 months. Are you starting in August?

Yes, going to SUNY Buffalo Law School in August. I've applied for the Stafford loans and the GRADPlus loans so the total would be around 38,000. I was a little worried about my finances for the year in terms of feeding myself.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:43 am

Foreman Grill + Rice Cooker + Natty Ice. Instant coffee. Eggs for breakfast. $200 a month, easy.

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Naked Dude
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby Naked Dude » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:42 am

Verity wrote:Here's my actual monthly budget:

Rent: $600
Utilities, etc: $100
Food: $950
Clothes: $300
Miscellaneous: $25


If you plan your budget, you will be able to afford anything.


$240 a week on food? Are you shopping at Whole Foods and eating out all the the time? Or does that include bars? If I got a box of Cheerios a week (what $4 at the most), the Subway special every day for lunch ($5, even weekends) that's $40 (and I try not to eat out for lunch but assuming busyness). Even a prepared meal from a grocery store or inexpensive-ish takeout food at about $10 a night I'm spending a little less than $150. If I prepare my own meals a lot less. Even buying some healthy snacks and milk and soda. I just do not understand.

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Naked Dude
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby Naked Dude » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:47 am

MTal wrote:It's eminently doable, take retail for example. You can start as a stocker and eventually move up to store manager. Target/Wal-Mart managers make about ~70k depending on location.


Or hell, screw Target, get a job at Macy's (or Nordstrom if you can), work there for a few years, get into selling either: shoes or men's suits (or women's clothing, all the other money is in women's shoes, I guarantee you, I know people in retail). Seriously if I had zero idea what to do I'd hustle for a job in a major department store with a goal of working my way up to Neiman Marcus by 30. Selling suits in a nice rich Florida town like Naples. Work my way up to management or start my own clothing boutique for upper middle class businessmen and professionals. Just need a good eye for fashion and ability to stand out from the Men's Wearhouse and Jos A Bank.

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Naked Dude
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby Naked Dude » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:55 am

MTal wrote:
kwais wrote:
MTal wrote:
nuff said


Read it and weep bro. Target managers make between 100-140k. Here:

--LinkRemoved--


indeed, but then you work at Target.


It's precisely because of that prestige-whore "I'm too smart for blue collar jobs" attitude that most posters here are destined for a life of fail.


A guy who was a couple years ahead of me in high school started a little kids' party company. Mostly portable laser tag equipment, branching out into bouncehouses. There are plenty of people who either weren't hit that bad by the recession or will still spend the money for their kids (it's a very specific demographic). He makes good money (not six figures, but for something so simple sounding and being your own boss hardly a bad life). His website and advertising isn't even that great-it's networking. He's already recouped his investment in equipment and even if business dried up he'd be ok. To a guy like him, he loves pride. Pride keeps many otherwise intelligent people from competing with him (although there is plenty of competition it's not like starting a computer company) He works for himself and makes money. I wish I had the cojones. Slowly saving money for the next business idea to come to him. The kryptonite of most people is a desperation to innovate. Copy copy copy. Before Chipotle tore through town I would've opened some burrito places.

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Naked Dude
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Re: So, how can you afford to survive while in law school?

Postby Naked Dude » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:02 am

kwais wrote:Because I'm interested in something a little more intellectually stimulating that retail, I'm a prestige-whore? lol. you live a sad life bro.


Even that's sort of a shitty attitude. What if a guy running a clothing boutique loves nothing more than picking out bleeding edge fashion and selling it? You act as though intellectual stimulation is some platonic ideal of generic knowledge-work




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